The Brightfyre theory

[Tony Stark of Winterfell]

Love this theory! Had similar thoughts in my head for a week now.

_ There is a certain irony in the fact that the Brightfyre theory makes Faegon’s claim even better in the sense that in unites both the older Targaryen and the BF claim, thus you could say that this trumps the claim Dany and Jon have.

Thought about that. not necessarily. if illyrio is descended from the female Blackfyre line and serra is a female Brightflame, then Aegon is a descendant of the female line of both houses. If the claim that Brightflame has a better claim than Egg's descendants is made, then Aegon has a better claim than Daenerys, but not necessarily Jon if R+L=J and R married J since Jon would be the only legitimate male targaryen descended from the male line of house targaryen.

[Aetta]

This isnt so much a gripe with the Brightfyre theory, as it applies to both BF theories. What evidence suggests Serra and Varys are borther and sister? That they both come from Lys? No, sorry but I dont consider that a strong enough connection, there must be thousands of people who live in Lys. That doesnt affect the theory all that much of course, it just removes Varys as Aegon the Maybes uncle.

Before reading this I was in the "random Valyrian looks, but likely the son of Illyrio. No Blackfyre connection" camp. Now I am kind of more accepting that Aegon may have a connection to Brightflame or Blackfyre, although not conpletely sold on either. I dont really know what to think tbh :/

Well, while we're in Lys, let's include Sheira Seastar. If she figures in, you now have Aegon, a dragon with three heads: Brightflame, Blackfyre and Targaryen.

...edit: not to say they are not all technically Targ, but we're tossing around Lys and the surname Seastar is not apt for a dragon's head, so she'll have to be a Targ. If you like, rather than Sheira, insert your Lys-connected Targaryen here ________.

[Lost Melnibonean]

you do?

Don´t you think it very reckless that HS would share that information with, i don´t know, like 20 people of uncertain trustiness and even loyalty?

how is it that half of the world doesn´t yet know Aegon is a blackfyre?

ETA; JonCon does have some friends in the Golden Company. If the members knew, shouldnt one of them have already told JonCon that Aegon isn´t really Rhaegar´s son, and that Jon is supporting the wrong dragon?

Like Franklyn flowers who seemed like good frinds with JOn?

Read the second half of The Lost Lord again. I admit it's far from conclusively it seems to me Strickland surely knows and he told his officers what was going on. They didn't just agree to take a contract--they swore their swords to Aegon and Aegon's "Hand" takes over command. Of course loose lips sink ships but the principals have good reason to ecpect loyalty from the captains of the Golden Company.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It doesn't matter if they were aware of Doran's initial plan or not. The point is uber cautious Doran jettisons the plan himself because he realizes Viserys can not drum up the necessary support and Jon Arryn himself gets wind of Doran's schemes concerning Viserys (whether or not anyone knew those plans included a wedding contract).

If Varys is serious about trying to convince Westeros that "Aegon" is the real deal, he almost has to go to Doran to get him on board, because Doran would be the perfect one to vouch for his "nephew". Also Doran has the motive to remove the Baratheons and Lannisters.

The quote you provided referred to Oberyn not Doran. Oberyn tried to raise Dorne for Viserys not Doran. Doran was more sneaky.

And the primary reason for faking Aegon is to get Dorne. It was a great plan... 10k Golden Company, 10-50k Dothraki, 25k Dornish spears, plus friends and Blackfyre and Targaryen loyalists south of the neck.

[Frey family reunion]

The quote you provided referred to Oberyn not Doran. Oberyn tried to raise Dorne for Viserys not Doran. Doran was more sneaky.

And the primary reason for faking Aegon is to get Dorne. It was a great plan... 10k Golden Company, 10-50k Dothraki, 25k Dornish spears, plus friends and Blackfyre and Targaryen loyalists south of the neck.

I think it's highly unlikely that Doran trusts Varys to actually believe that Aegon is his nephew. It's more likely that Varys includes Doran in on the conspiracy.

[Mithras]

Varys and his queer affection for the children

“Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

Varys has a queer affection for the children. We saw him genuinely helping some kids in danger, which is an odd thing for a schemer like him. We saw how Varys saved Gendry. There are more quotes for Varys on this. Recall his reactions while Sansa was pleading for Ned’s life. Surely Varys uses children for his political purposes or in his spy network. Nonetheless, he always treats them gently.

Aerion’s infant son was a kid who was unable to defend his birthrights against the usurpers in their opinion. So if Varys is a descendant of him, his queer affection for the children (who need help and protection) gains a solid ground. That can also illuminate why Varys/Illyrio let Viserys/Dany live in the Free Cities under their power domain as kids because Varys did not want to kill them while they were helpless. They spared them to kill them later when they are both grown up.

Doran and his queer affection for the children

“Beautiful and peaceful,” the prince said. “Cool breezes, sparkling water, and the laughter of children. The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron’s bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him. It was Daenerys who filled the gardens with laughing children. Her own children at the start, but later the sons and daughters of lords and landed knights were brought in to be companions to the boys and girls of princely blood. And one summer’s day when it was scorching hot, she took pity on the children of her grooms and cooks and serving men and invited them to use the pools and fountains too, a tradition that has endured till this day.”

“If you were not my brother’s daughters, I would send the three of you back to your cells and keep you there until your bones were grey. Instead I mean to take you with us to the Water Gardens. There are lessons there if you have the wit to see them.”

“Lessons?” said Obara. “All I’ve seen are naked children.”

“Aye,” the prince said. “I told the story to Ser Balon, but not all of it. As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the highborn from the low. Naked, they were only children. All innocent, all vulnerable, all deserving of long life, love, protection. ‘There is your realm,’ she told her son and heir, ‘remember them, in everything you do.’ My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.”

I really want Aerion’s wife to be a Martell. That ties Varys to Daenaerys I and the Water Gardens too.

By the way I don’t think Doran is involved in the Brightfyre conspiracy (at least not from the beginning). Doran genuinely works for the restoration of true Targaryens. Varys outplayed him but did not destroy him. Rather he saved him and directed him towards his own cause. After all, they are more or less natural allies. fAegon can give him the vengeance he desired so long. As I stated before, for both Blackfyres and Brightflames, Arianne is a trueborn princess with Targaryen blood fit for fAegon.

Illyrio and his queer affection for the children

Tyrion pondered all he knew of Volantis, oldest and proudest of the Nine Free Cities. Something was awry here. Even with half a nose, he could smell it. “It’s said there are five slaves for every free man in Volantis. Why would the triarchs assist a queen who smashed the slave trade?” He pointed at Illyrio. “For that matter, why would you? Slavery may be forbidden by the laws of Pentos, yet you have a finger in that trade as well, and maybe a whole hand. And yet you conspire for the dragon queen, and not against her. Why? What do you hope to gain from Queen Daenerys?”

“Are we back to that again? You are a persistent little man.” Illyrio gave a laugh and slapped his belly. “As you will. The Beggar King swore that I should be his master of coin, and a lordly lord as well. Once he wore his golden crown, I should have my choice of castles … even Casterly Rock, if I desired.”

Tyrion snorted wine back up the scarred stump that had been his nose. “My father would have loved to hear that.”

“Your lord father had no cause for concern. Why would I want a rock? My manse is large enough for any man, and more comfortable than your drafty Westerosi castles. Master of coin, though …” The fat man peeled another egg. “I am fond of coins. Is there any sound as sweet as the clink of gold on gold?”

The magister waggled his fat fingers. “Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more.”

“Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles.

“Griff is different. He has a son he dotes on. Young Griff, the boy is called. There never was a nobler lad.”

Illyrio lied to Tyrion about why he was backing Dany up but there is also a clue here. So what is Illyrio’s secret motive beneath the gold? Beneath the gold, the bitter steel. If we equate the (gold) coins to the GC, than Illyrio being the Master of Coin means he is the de facto ruler of the GC. This is not about his wealth but his blood. The first and foremost contract of the GC was writ in blood. They follow the lead of the Blackfyres above everything else.

[Veltigar]

Wow, I hadn't anticipated this kind of response. Everyone thanks for responding, I'll try to get up to speed as quickly as possible.

My second question-- whether it works just as well in the reverse-- hasn't been addressed, but I'll hope Veltigar will do that :)

To be clear-- I agree with this theory. I'm just interested what makes those involved here pick Illyrio as a Blackfyre and Serra as a Brightflame, rather than the reverse.

Well, I think there are several things that work better in the scenario where Illyrio is a BF and Serra a Brightflame:

1) Serra has the Lys connection going for her. And Aerion spend years of his life in exile there.

2) There is the mummers parallel as mentioned in the OP. We are introduced to Aerion's madness in tHK when he attacks a Dornish mummerstroop with a fake dragon. If Varys is his descendant that incident becomes very symbolic since Varys is a mummer who has come back to introduce his own fake dragon (which will probably win the allegiance of Dorne)

3) Both BF and Brightflame are descendants of Aegon IV but the BF are more heavily associated with him since Daemon I was his favorite son. It therefore makes more sense if Illyrio, with his high resemblance to Aegon IV, is a Blackfyre.

4) Illyrio was clearly a warrior in his younger days. We know that being a warrior is a BF's bread and butter. It makes more sense that the BF descendant of the two has a military past.

5) It's Illyrio who makes the long speech about how the GC writes some of it's contracts in blood and all that. His affinity with the GC seems unusually large, which makes him a more likely candidate for BF-descendant.

6) As J. Stargaryen pointed out (I'll add this to the OP btw great find): Aerion threatens Egg with castration. If Varys is his descendant than we can really say that Irony is a bitch now can we ;)

There is probably more, but that's from the top of my head (I'm at page 2 in the thread right now, so perhaps there were other things mentioned in the later pages that I'm reading right now).

[Veltigar]

Veltigar, on 24 Feb 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

_ There is a certain irony in the fact that the Brightfyre theory makes Faegon’s claim even better in the sense that in unites both the older Targaryen and the BF claim, thus you could say that this trumps the claim Dany and Jon have.

Again, this doesn't say whether its the passed over son or the Lyseni-Bastards. I don't see where you get this from that text excerpt.

I personally favor the trueborn son as Varys's ancestor. Something that should be quite clear from the quote above (only a trueborn child of Aerion would be considered) and from the fact that I haven't mentioned the bastards, I did however mention Aerion's trueborn son.

But since this seems to inspire some confusion in some posters I'll make it more explicit and add the SSM about the bastards in as well, for those who prefer that scenario.

Did you bother with the OP at all?

Everyone else (who has) has also opted to speak such.

Thanks for pointing that out to him SOP :D

[Veltigar]

I read it a while ago, so this might not be completely accurate. House webber (spider sigil) wasn´t really loyal to the blackfyres. It was house osgrey.

Actually Ser eustance osgrey was the blackfyre loyalist. he buried his sons close to blackberry bushes. Tyrion and Illyrio eat blackberries, and drink blackberry wine didn´t they?

This is a brilliant observation! House Osgrey (BF loyalists) unite themselves withe House Webber (sigil a Spider like Varys and they supported Daeron the Good. Who was of course Aerion's grandfather).

Slamdunk man! :cheers:

[J. Stargaryen]

Wow, I hadn't anticipated this kind of response. Everyone thanks for responding, I'll try to get up to speed as quickly as possible.

Well, I think there are several things that work better in the scenario where Illyrio is a BF and Serra a Brightflame:

1) Serra has the Lys connection going for her. And Aerion spend years of his life in exile there.

2) There is the mummers parallel as mentioned in the OP. We are introduced to Aerion's madness in tHK when he attacks a Dornish mummerstroop with a fake dragon. If Varys is his descendant that incident becomes very symbolic since Varys is a mummer who has come back to introduce his own fake dragon (which will probably win the allegiance of Dorne)

3) Both BF and Brightflame are descendants of Aegon IV but the BF are more heavily associated with him since Daemon I was his favorite son. It therefore makes more sense if Illyrio, with his high resemblance to Aegon IV, is a Blackfyre.

4) Illyrio was clearly a warrior in his younger days. We know that being a warrior is a BF's bread and butter. It makes more sense that the BF descendant of the two has a military past.

5) It's Illyrio who makes the long speech about how the GC writes some of it's contracts in blood and all that. His affinity with the GC seems unusually large, which makes him a more likely candidate for BF-descendant.

6) As J. Stargaryen pointed out (I'll add this to the OP btw great find): Aerion threatens Egg with castration. If Varys is his descendant than we can really say that Irony is a bitch now can we ;)

There is probably more, but that's from the top of my head (I'm at page 2 in the thread right now, so perhaps there were other things mentioned in the later pages that I'm reading right now).

LordToo-Fat and I were having a discussion that led to a potentially neat catch. As you know, Lady Gwyn was inquiring about whether or not we might have the Blackfyre/Brightflame lineages mixed up. LT-F asked if there was even anything linking Varys to the Blackfyres. I responded that in TSS we get a lot of Blackfyre talk + House Webber with its spider sigil, to which he replied:

I read it a while ago, so this might not be completely accurate. House webber (spider sigil) wasn´t really loyal to the blackfyres. It was house osgrey.

Actually Ser eustance osgrey was the blackfyre loyalist. he buried his sons close to blackberry bushes. Tyrion and Illyrio eat blackberries, and drink blackberry wine didn´t they?

And how does the Osgrey-Webber feud get resolved? They unite their Houses via marriage! Osgreys were Blackfyre supporters, and Ser Eustace ends up marrying the lady spider, which could be seen as an analog for Varys' sister. Naturally, the Webbers supported House Targaryen during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Something else that occurred to me is that Osgrey and Webber ended up fighting over water. There were hard feelings for a long time prior, but the first blood is spilled over the damn that Lady Rohann had built. In other words, the water that was being denied to the Osgreys by House Webber.

Let's look at the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Though there was bitterness between the two sides beforehand, the "straw that broke the camel's back," according to GRRM, was when Daeron II arranged the marriage of Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne. And what did Maron Martell do to commemorate the marriage? He built Daenerys the Water Gardens. Daemon Blackfyre was denied his water Daenerys.

What this looks like to me is nearly perfect symbolism. Osgrey = (Daemon) Blackfyre. Webber = (Daeron II) Targaryen. Water = Daenerys.

partially :ninja: 'd by Veltigar by like 5 seconds!

[Blazfemur]

On a side note, thank you guys, this is one of the more interesting topics and a nice break from all the r+l=j controversies.

Can Septa Lemore = Serra? there is evidence she had a child. My timelines might be off but is there any way she could be Aegon's mother (without him knowing)?

That would mean, Illyrio + Septa Lemore = Aegon, with Varys being Septa Lemore's brother, when it all comes down to it.

[Blazfemur]

Actually, I think Tyrion saw a picture of Serra from Illyrio when they were travelling. Tyrion more than likely would then recognize Septa Lemore when he saw her, recalling her from the picture i'd think.

[Veltigar]

Varys and his queer affection for the children

“Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children.”

Varys has a queer affection for the children. We saw him genuinely helping some kids in danger, which is an odd thing for a schemer like him. We saw how Varys saved Gendry. There are more quotes for Varys on this. Recall his reactions while Sansa was pleading for Ned’s life. Surely Varys uses children for his political purposes or in his spy network. Nonetheless, he always treats them gently.

Aerion’s infant son was a kid who was unable to defend his birthrights against the usurpers in their opinion. So if Varys is a descendant of him, his queer affection for the children (who need help and protection) gains a solid ground. That can also illuminate why Varys/Illyrio let Viserys/Dany live in the Free Cities under their power domain as kids because Varys did not want to kill them while they were helpless. They spared them to kill them later when they are both grown up.

.

I wouldn't call cutting the children's tongue out and probably killing them when they become to old to spy as treating them gently.

I do believe he might have a bit of a soft streak for children like Gendry and Sansa, who are fucked over because of whom their parents are. Simply, because he recognizes himself and Serra in them. SO, if it doesn't hurt him he would probably takes steps to help them.

[Veltigar]

LordToo-Fat and I were having a discussion that led to a potentially neat catch. As you know, Lady Gwyn was inquiring about whether or not we might have the Blackfyre/Brightflame lineages mixed up. LT-F asked if there was even anything linking Varys to the Blackfyres. I responded that in TSS we get a lot of Blackfyre talk + House Webber with its spider sigil, to which he replied:

And how does the Osgrey-Webber feud get resolved? They unite their Houses via marriage! Osgreys were Blackfyre supporters, and Ser Eustace ends up marrying the lady spider, which could be seen as an analog for Varys' sister. Naturally, the Webbers supported House Targaryen during the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Something else that occurred to me is that Osgrey and Webber ended up fighting over water. There were hard feelings for a long time prior, but the first blood is spilled over the damn that Lady Rohann had built. In other words, the water that was being denied to the Osgreys by House Webber.

Let's look at the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Though there was bitterness between the two sides beforehand, the "straw that broke the camel's back," according to GRRM, was when Daeron II arranged the marriage of Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne. This meant that Daemon Blackfyre would be denied his water Daenerys. And what did Maron Martell do to commemorate the marriage? He built Daenerys the Water Gardens.

What this looks like to me is nearly perfect symbolism. Osgrey = (Daemon) Blackfyre. Webber = (Daeron II) Targaryen. Water = Daenerys.

partially :ninja: 'd by Veltigar by like 5 seconds!

I'm going to add this post to the OP as well. This was a really great find :cheers: You two should really congratulate yourself. It just seems so obvious right now.

[yolkboy]

So In aCoK there are two speeches about shadows, one by Varys and one by Mel. I always thought they were possibly linked as Varys tells Tyrion shadows can kill, which is what happens with Mel's shadow assassins.

Varys tells Tyrion power is a mummers trick and a shadow. To gain power you have to cast a large shadow.

What casts the darkest shadow? A bright flame, according to Mel.

Dunno if this might be a purposeful nod or not, but just getting it out there. :P

Anyway, a good thread and i'll wade in when i've collected my thoughts on it.

I'm interested on the consensus of what the relationship between Serra and Varys might be, if they are both Brightflames.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

So In aCoK there are two speeches about shadows, one by Varys and one by Mel. I always thought they were possibly linked as Varys tells Tyrion shadows can kill, which is what happens with Mel's shadow assassins.

Varys tells Tyrion power is a mummers trick and a shadow. To gain power you have to cast a large shadow.

What casts the darkest shadow? A bright flame, according to Mel.

:bowdown:

As I've said before, I really like this theory. No other explanation of Moqorro's dragons makes sense to me. And Varys Brightflame being a mummer is hilarious.

Problems though still for me are the "debts of affection" - which I guess still works with this, but eh, idk; the fact it means there is another secret Targ - which I personally just don't like; and that it makes Illyrio the rightful Targaryen heir - which, again, I just don't like versus it being Varys, but this also complicated that the GC is putting the son on the throne when the father is still alive. :dunno: (probably a few other problems I still have that I missed though)

[Lost Melnibonean]

I wouldn't call cutting the children's tongue out and probably killing them when they become to old to spy as treating them gently.

I do believe he might have a bit of a soft streak for children like Gendry and Sansa, who are fucked over because of whom their parents are. Simply, because he recognizes himself and Serra in them. SO, if it doesn't hurt him he would probably takes steps to help them.

Gendry and Sansa are nothing but pawns to Varys.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I wouldn't call cutting the children's tongue out and probably killing them when they become to old to spy as treating them gently.

I do believe he might have a bit of a soft streak for children like Gendry and Sansa, who are fucked over because of whom their parents are. Simply, because he recognizes himself and Serra in them. SO, if it doesn't hurt him he would probably takes steps to help them.

Varys doesn't cut their tongues out. They come to him that way. Could be kids who had tongue removal done for some kind of crime and Illyrio saves them from worse punishments and sends them to Varys.

Do we know that they get killed when they're older or is that speculation? It makes sense as the secrets would die with them, but is there another option maybe?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Varys doesn't cut their tongues out. They come to him that way. Could be kids who had tongue removal done for some kind of crime and Illyrio saves them from worse punishments and sends them to Varys.

Do we know that they get killed when they're older or is that speculation? It makes sense as the secrets would die with them, but is there another option maybe?

We Have this...

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

" . . . the risk . . . "

And this...

"If any of them were hiding in the tower, we would have found them. I've had a small army going at it with picks and hammers. We've knocked through walls and ripped up floors and uncovered half a hundred secret passages."

"And for all you know there may be half a hundred more." Some of the secret crawlways had turned out to be so small that Jaime had needed pages and stableboys to explore them. A passage to the black cells had been found, and a stone well that seemed to have no bottom. They had found a chamber full of skulls and yellowed bones, and four sacks of tarnished silver coins from the reign of the first King Viserys. They had found a thousand rats as well . . . but neither Tyrion nor Varys had been amongst them, and Jaime had finally insisted on putting an end to the search. One boy had gotten stuck in a narrow passage and had to be pulled out by his feet, shrieking. Another fell down a shaft and broke his legs. And two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel. Some of the other guards swore they could hear them calling faintly through the stone, but when Jaime's men tore down the wall they found only earth and rubble on the far side. "The Imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out."

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Reading Illyrio as the Blackfyre king is interesting. (Though I can't help but picture him as Peter Man-Yum (Roger Allam) from The Thick of It.)

Next time anyone reads a chapter with him in it though, please try this! It is actually pretty hilarious at times.

Also, he totally pulls a Daeron the Falsborn by creating a marriage alliance with a potential rival (the Brighflames). And then, payback is a bitch. He pulls off what the Falseborn did to his own sister and brother on Viserys and Dany. He marries off a Daenerys (who Viserys probably at least wanted to fuck) to savages. And while it is political, Dany and Drogo do eventually "fall in love" - similar to what possibly happened with the first Daenerys marrying the Martell.