Daenerys Targaryen A born Leader, but a Terrible Ruler

[Wmarshal]

Yes, everyone that has been tortured in Westeros by the other lords have all been hardended criminals, while Dany only tortures the innocent ones.

Yeah I am done with this thread.

:rolleyes:

What lords you mentioned tortured innocents who are not already heavily seen as a monster.

[Borys of Ur Draxa]

I used to think that way; I thought he whored her self out to Hizdarhr to keep what she gained, but a true leader has a vision; she was being strategic; she knew that she didn't have enough ships to sail to Westeros nor could she leave the city and take her Unsullied, Sell-swords and freed slaves across the desert again; it would be the red-wastes all over again; surviving the Red-Wastes makes her a leader. She was buying time. But true, she gave into terrorism with the Sons of the Harpy; she has no idea how to deal with terrorism; but the sell-swords do...

[Nictarion]

What lords you mentioned tortured innocents who are not already heavily seen as a monster.

Well Stannis Baratheon employs Suggs on DS. Whose said to especially love to torture women. And does innocence/guilt really matter, shouldn't all torture be considered wrong?

[joluoto2]

Mereen had it's highs and lows. Dany wanted peace. Peace was perhaps not the right solution (still thinking aiding the Butcher King, how despicable he may be, it might have been the right move), but she got her peace (then it all fell apart when she left). Her marraige to Hizdar did stop the Harpy and did appease the Yunkish alliance.

She couldn't abandoned all the slaves she had freed. That was the real reason she stayed in Mereen. She saw what happened in Astapor. She saw what happened in Yunkai. She knew something similar would happen in Mereen if she left he "children" behind. I agree with ther author of the Mereenese blot that her character development in Dance is from the "Girl who wanted peace and save the slaves" to that of a Targaryen Queen.

[SeanF]

She tortured to innocent girls she is Aerys.

She told Barry she is not ready then only wants to hear Fairy Tales.

Aerys got sexually aroused by burning and torturing people.

There's no evidence at all that Dany does so.

[Nictarion]

There's no evidence at all that Dany does so.

Quite the opposite actually,"I never knew my father, I want to know everything. The good and REST".

[Faydra]

At first yes but then she starts to say it about everthing.

There is no example in which she said it as an excuse to anything bad that happened in Meereen. When that man pretended that his daughter was dead, she did not go on 'I'm a little girl...'. She uses it to intimidate or to get what she wants, but never to excuse something serious.

In westeros men will not worship her like a god and her enemies would ten times more fierce then the ghiscari.

Nor do they worship her now. In KL there is no organization such as the Harpy. Cersei's men did not go missing. How are they going to be ten times more fierce after the decimation created by The War of The 5 Kings?

She asks Barry stories all the time she just doesn't want to hear the crappy stuff.

Well, now you contradict yourself: "That and the fact she has made little to know attempt to learn about the kingdoms she means to rule". Is she interested or is she not? Make up your mind.

She asked about her parent's lovers, asked about Barristan opinion on Aerys' madness, and yet you say that she made no effort in learning about them.

And she doesn't ask 'all the time', she didn't do it of late, when she needed to focus on Meereen.

Um yes you do the law most be blind. They worship her as a goddess of course they don't see her faults. Barry is the biggest Targ fanboy in this book he says how great Rhaegar is but can't think of a damn thing useful he ever did. Shavepate is what actual people like lords of Westeros would think when it comes to Dany's actions. Those children were hostages if you are not going to kill them don't take them or at less don't tell people.

Is he? As far as I recall he served the Baratheons for a long time. He's not intrested in the Targs, he wants to do what he believes to be honourable.

So you say that Shavepate is the very image of every lord in Westeros? Not taking them as hostages is good in the first place, but that's not Skahaz's opinion. He just wants them dead for his own gain, which is apparently amplifying the conflict. He's the Meereenese equivalent for Littlefinger, and what good did it do Ned to trust him? Regardless of how good at ruling you are, there will always be a person like this.

The fact she promised to marry a slaver at all showed how idiotic her ideals are. She kills thousands for the sake of freedom yet when the slavers fight back she rolls on her back and say mercy. She let herself be pushed into a corner instead of doing what her advicers told her and gut the yunkai, who were obviously using the peace as a cover to a mass an army, before their forces grew to great.

And how would she face that army with a war inside her gates? A good pact is one that has both sides loosing and gaining something. She's by no means surrendering to them, as slavery is no longer a practice allowed in Meereen and the Meereense people from the arena fought because they wanted to.

No it is not sea travel is a crap load harder then land travel get their before your army does you are one dragon facing an army. Then heir is supply reinforcements and political leaders turning rogue the second you get on a boat.

Why would she go back with an army? Why would she choose leaders that are of questionable loyalty? The battle of Meereen will conclude things there and having her dragon grown/ albe to fly will make it easier for her to control the city. Alysanne went to the Night's Watch without an army.

With a 10000, Dany has closer to a million followers.

Her army is smaller than a million. The common people of Meereen obviously won't settle in Westeros. And they don't need to cross at the same time. In the worst case she'll cross with ~ 10k and wait for the rest to join.

She hates all of them and in considers their kids usurpers. She will start a murderous war.

You make such assumptions and yet you don't back them with facts.

She hates the noblemen of Meereen as well, but she doesn't hate their children. It's out of Dany's character to kill them for what their parents may have done. She'll attack the ones that oppose her and pardon the ones that decide to serve, despite their past decisions (as she did with Barristan).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that she is born a leader or a ruler, the only thing that gives her advantage and make people to follow her are her dragons, not herself, so she is not a ruler she is more like a dangerous person who people follow because they are afraid of him that hardly means a born ruler.

[Faydra]

Because knowing why her family was overthrown might help her, and if she ever has any children, from making the same mistake? I understand there were times she had to focus more on the things around her, but in all of those months of travel between cities and on the ocean she didn’t have time to learn about the place she means to rule? There are times Selmy or Mormont even offer to tell her about her past as well as the Starks and Baratheons and she turns a deaf ear.

She knows that the nobles wanted to overthrow her father because they considered him unfit to rule. She knows about Rhaegar's elopement and reasons as well. What good would hearing additional details do her at the moment? They're all dead anyway.

Its not about pleasing people, it was about proving her strength as a monarch to those who would oppose her. In medieval times as well as in ASOIAF it was quite common to take hostages or wards in order to ensure enemy complacency. While sparing the children may have earned her admiration in her followers eyes it made her look weak to her enemies. This is a slip up that Dany made herself. She took the children hostage, drew the line in the sand and made her message clear. “Cross me and the children die.” A monarch cannot have the luxury of making threats they do not intend to follow through with. Her inaction likely strengthened the resolve of her enemies to see her fall.

She made her point clear by killing 167 slavers. Do you really believe that a ruler needs to kill children to prove his strength?

Robb did not kill Catelyn either, even though what she did was called treason. You loose the respect of your enemy when you don't take drastic measures, but when you do it, you loose the support of your people. Dany's military strength was the only thing that restrained the slavers from starting an open war. Look at the reversed situation. Tywin attacked King's Landing regardless of what could happen to Jaime, while being well aware of the fact that Aerys was the sort to enforce his threats. The opinion of your adversary is irrelevant, while military power counts more than anything.

According to the map of Westeros the continent is 3000 miles long, and the distance from the wall to Kings landing in a straight line is around 2100 miles long. I don’t know what the limits are for dragons in terms of flying distance, but I doubt even they could fly that far without specific islands to stop at or a ship to rest on. That in turn means potentially leaving a number of her military forces back in Mereen, which could spell disaster on either continent.

The Narrow Sea is well... narrow. Like any other sea, it has small islands. However, I doubt that a dragon could not be able to cross it without having to stop.

Leaving Meereen lightly garrisoned won't cause any trouble, as the people of the city will be able to strengthen their numbers in time. The pyramids are damaged by the dragons and the walls are still standing. Considering the aftermath of the battle, no one will want any time soon to conquer Meereen.

The golden company is a sellsword company that has existed for over a 120 years according to the lore and numbers around 10,000 men. They have had decades to accrue ships, wealth, armor and supplies to go to war. Daenerys does not have that kind of time to wait or to build a fleet.

Daenerys alone has 20,000 Unsullied soldiers, only three ships and assuming she doesn’t leave them in Mereen around 60,000-80,000 freed slaves to transport. Now going by the lore the largest ship type the war galleys can transport around 100 oarmen and perhaps 50-100 of her own men as well as supplies, a few horses and maybe a few pieces of siege equipment. In order to fully move her forces across the sea she would need anywhere from 400 -500 warships, assuming her freed slaves can serve as the oarmen. If she has to get oarmen from outside her realm she will need almost a 1000 warships. Next she has to find and pay an able captain and crew for each vessel to work the masts and navigation, along with supplies to last 200 men for whats probably a couple month voyage on each ship. Then you need to supply most of these men with armor; weapons and I assume some form of training. And before you can do any of this you need to acquire these neccesities through trade or conquest.

She'll most likely try to find her people a place to live and work as paid civilians without overpopulating Westeros. And even if she doesn't want to do so, they don't need to cross at the same time her army does.

Nymeria had ten thousand ships. Did it take her a century to acquire them?

Daenerys has wealth but not enough to buy what she needs, and any city she tries to conquer will fight to the death and their ships will flee the harbor.

Or they could give her ships to avoid war. Qarth already tried this. It's a shame they did it at the wrong time.

Not to mention her cities about to come under sige from the Yunkai and may come under attack from the iron fleet. Even if it was just her Unsullied going to Westeros, she would need a least a hundred ships, of which she only has 3 merchant vessels. Now the Iron fleet or Dorne could potentially move her, but they would not do so without some form of deal, probably in matrimony.

Dorne could not. They're at the other edge of the world and transporting ships now would be a terrible choice. Victarion on the other hand, is something different. I could see Dany striking a deal with him. Hizdahr is on borrowed time and Victarion will most likely see to it, if Barristan with his righteous mentality doesn't do it first.

I can see many possibilities for Dany to move her army. Do you imply that she'll never make it to Westeros?

[Dany Girl]

What lords you mentioned tortured innocents who are not already heavily seen as a monster.

Randall Tarly has a whore's vagina scrubbed with Lye because she got the clap from a customer. Seems like she's pretty much a victim of circumstances and was then tortured.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't think that she is born a leader or a ruler, the only thing that gives her advantage and make people to follow her are her dragons, not herself, so she is not a ruler she is more like a dangerous person who people follow because they are afraid of him that hardly means a born ruler.

She was followed pre-dragons, and most of all, her incredible journey in AGOT shows that Daenerys was someone, she was a leader in her own way.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

She was followed pre-dragons, and most of all, her incredible journey in AGOT shows that Daenerys was someone, she was a leader in her own way.

PreDragons she had Drogo so yet again it wasn't her power or skills it was Drogo's power.

Randall Tarly has a whore's vagina scrubbed with Lye because she got the clap from a customer. Seems like she's pretty much a victim of circumstances and was then tortured.

Did he? :ack: I don't remember that but I am not surprised.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Quite the opposite actually,"I never knew my father, I want to know everything. The good and REST".

one day

I don't really fault Dany as this is for narrative purposes, but it's starting to stretch the laws of credibility

[Parwan]

Where does it say that?!

That's a good question, James.

She hates all of them and in considers their kids usurpers. She will start a murderous war.

That's not even a poor answer. It's not an answer at all. Where, in the text, is there any indication that Dany wants to eliminate any house, much less 3 major ones? The "Usurper's dogs" moniker, as far as I can tell, is a label given to certain individual men. I am not aware of any place in the text where Daenerys, Jorah, or even Viserys says strongly negative things about a house. Maybe there is such a place. If someone can point to it in the text, I'd be glad to check further into things. I've read several posts on this matter, however, and no poster that I have queried on the issue has produced evidence that Dany hates any house.

[The Last Poster]

She proved herself a less than capable ruler in Mereen, but that does not mean she can't learn from her mistakes and become a great ruler in the future. It truly blows my mind how many people forget about a thing called character progression.

[TheCasualObserver]

She proved herself a less than capable ruler in Mereen, but that does not mean she can't learn from her mistakes and become a great ruler in the future. It truly blows my mind how many people forget about a thing called character progression.

But... she's had character progression in ADWD and it was character progression which ended with her once again embarking upon a destructive path. Is that what Westeros needs now? I've become fairly convinced by the Dany analysis over at the Meereenese Blot - that her entire progression through ADWD is actually setting her up to be a violent conqueror, albeit one who's motivations and frustrations are intimately familiar to readers. Do you believe that GRRM was simply killing time in her chapters in Meereen and she's going to revert back to being kind and benevolent again? That would show no character progression.

[Dany Girl]

Did he? :ack: I don't remember that but I am not surprised.

Yep, it's during his mock trials that Brianne watches. A customer brings charges against her for giving him some STD, I believe it's the Clap. She got it from another customer. Tarly punishes her by "cleansing" her. It's pretty horrifying, but it's a small scene. He passes other judgements at that time as well that are weird and harsh, but I don't remember the details.

[Silverin]

But... she's had character progression in ADWD and it was character progression which ended with her once again embarking upon a destructive path. Is that what Westeros needs now? I've become fairly convinced by the Dany analysis over at the Meereenese Blot - that her entire progression through ADWD is actually setting her up to be a violent conqueror, albeit one who's motivations and frustrations are intimately familiar to readers. Do you believe that GRRM was simply killing time in her chapters in Meereen and she's going to revert back to being kind and benevolent again? That would show no character progression.

Well obviously the "dragon plant no trees", means that she will become a true ruler who builds and makes Westeros prosper, without trees of course because she doesn't plants them. I don't see how anyone can make the assumption that this is not a metaphor of her becomming a constructive ruler who brings prosperity and peace?

Joke aside I have no idea how all the Dany fans explain basically the Main words of her whole arc in Meereen. I think they mentally block it out from their readings.

Because the dragons plant no trees pretty strongly indicated that Dany won't be building and creating much, she is a force of destruction, fire and blood as you say it.

So I agree that she will be a conqueror not a ruler.

About OP. That is my main opinion about Dany as well, she is a leader, but not a ruler. I don't fault her for deciding for marying Hizdar tough, Quent came too late. But aside from that she could have tried to make sure for a possible allience without a marriage, and maybe she shouldn't have laughed at him... But this is minor, I don't fault her much, more like she could have done better with handling him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

That's a good question, James.

That's not even a poor answer. It's not an answer at all. Where, in the text, is there any indication that Dany wants to eliminate any house, much less 3 major ones? The "Usurper's dogs" moniker, as far as I can tell, is a label given to certain individual men. I am not aware of any place in the text where Daenerys, Jorah, or even Viserys says strongly negative things about a house. Maybe there is such a place. If someone can point to it in the text, I'd be glad to check further into things. I've read several posts on this matter, however, and no poster that I have queried on the issue has produced evidence that Dany hates any house.

You are right, that does not exist in the texts. Where do people come up with this stuff?

[SeanF]

You are right, that does not exist in the texts. Where do people come up with this stuff?

Medieval Western Europe had two concepts of feudal war (that is, war between barons, or between a vassal and his overlord). One was guerre couvert; limited war, conducted according to rules. Neither side was looking to destroy the other (although massacring peasants was perfectly legitimate). But, it was assumed that both sides would eventually come to terms, and prisoners of gentle birth would be ransomed. The other was guerre mortelle. In that case, it was assumed that prisoners would be executed, and one side was looking to destroy the other (although noble infant children would usually be spared).

Westeros has increasingly adopted an extreme form of guerre mortelle, in which the Reynes, Tarbecks, Darklyns, Targaryens, Starks, Darrys etc. have been exterminated by their enemies, and women and infants are treated as legitimate targets. In the light of this, I'd expect Dany to wipe out enemy families, simply because the stakes have been raised so high. If she loses, she knows she can expect no mercy.