Daenerys Targaryen A born Leader, but a Terrible Ruler

[Lyse Stark]

I don't think you can make sweeping judgements on the basis of house words or events which haven't taken place yet. It's not clear what sort of "dance" will take place when Dany reaches Westeros. Things are very unlikely to be settled by negotiation, but I don't think we can place the blame for future death and destruction on any particular character.

In my opinion, the charge that Daenerys Targaryen refuses to take advice is not well supported by the text. She can be reasonable; she does listen to other people. It is at least possible that someone like Tyrion will give her good advice, and that she will follow it. How good will the advice be? How closely will she follow it, and to what result? I suppose we'll find that out. Lots of endings are possible. Dany isn't hopeless as a ruler. What sort of advice she gets, what sort of council she puts together--such things are very important.

And what if Dany repeatedly ignore her advisors's advice, like Rhaenyra did? That would be bad for Westeros as a whole. So the point is that if Dany keep disregarding the political landscape there, then she will be even less popular. And if the DotD 2.0 ravage the land, it is a certain possibility that food stores will be ravaged, driving the land further in famine. This will results in uprisings amongst the smallfolk, and I am certain that war can bring out the worst in people. I think it can be the same for Dany.

So if she make the choice to begin a war against Aegon or FAegon when her advisors clearly says to do so is political suicide, then she will suffer the consequences just as badly as anyone.

[Dany Girl]

And what if Dany repeatedly ignore her advisors's advice, like Rhaenyra did? That would be bad for Westeros as a whole. So the point is that if Dany keep disregarding the political landscape there, then she will be even less popular. And if the DotD 2.0 ravage the land, it is a certain possibility that food stores will be ravaged, driving the land further in famine. This will results in uprisings amongst the smallfolk, and I am certain that war can bring out the worst in people. I think it can be the same for Dany.

So if she make the choice to begin a war against Aegon or FAegon when her advisors clearly says to do so is political suicide, then she will suffer the consequences just as badly as anyone.

Dany is not Rhaenyra though. She's her own person. Do you really think GRRM is just retelling the same story? Rhaenyra is likely an example of what Dany could be, but won't be. Dany has already shown she's willing to accept and ask for council.

[Dr. Qyburn]

1. A careful reading of the text will show that Meereen is not starving, and is not in present danger of starving. The hunger there is due mostly to Dany's enemies. She actually makes some good moves to feed the population. The seven kingdoms are more in danger of starvation than is Meereen.

I probably did not explain myself well, but I did not say Mereen is starving. However, with a war inside and outside mereen walls (both of which were caused by actions), a cholera-like disease outbreak, a broken down economic system (however bad, it was still a system), and neighbouring cities against her, a famine is very much likely.

Note: I said likely. Things might change in the way of a certain half-man coming in rescuing dear Dany.

Also aren't some of her people going to follow her to Westeros? Its also likely that they will do so since they see her as their "mother", what then will happen to them when they are greeted with winter and a whole host of other problems? (The Others not including)

[SeanF]

We can't be certain, but it does look as though Dany's enemies are heading for defeat outside Meereen, and that Volantis will revolt in her favour. That would transform her strategic position.

[TheSpottedCat]

Congrats on your first post and starting your first thread on this forum. Your argument was well laid-out and concise, but if I may suggest, it would be worth spell-checking a little bit before posting. I know it's hard to do on a long post, especially when one is excited, but it helps other people out, and makes your argument appear more well-constructed.

As for your argument itself, I must admit I like it. I don't agree with the entire thing, but you have some very interesting and valid points. While reading, I kept thinking that, going by your definition of ruler and leader, Jon Snow sounds like a good ruler, and whether that might suggest, given the R+L=J theory, that Dany and Jon might end up becoming allies and/or co-ruling Westeros. A yin and yang kind of thing, if you will. Then I came to the end of your post and saw that you had come to a similar (sort of) conclusion.

[Parwan]

We can't be certain, but it does look as though Dany's enemies are heading for defeat outside Meereen, and that Volantis will revolt in her favour. That would transform her strategic position.

Good points. I think that too much is made of the Iron Fleet in these forums. The Voantene fleet is much larger. As far as I can tell, it is manned by slaves and sellswords. If it goes over to Dany, then her transportation problems are solved. Especially since she will also have abundant funds with which to hire sellsails.

[Parwan]

I probably did not explain myself well, but I did not say Mereen is starving. However, with a war inside and outside mereen walls (both of which were caused by actions), a cholera-like disease outbreak, a broken down economic system (however bad, it was still a system), and neighbouring cities against her, a famine is very much likely.

Note: I said likely. Things might change in the way of a certain half-man coming in rescuing dear Dany.

Also aren't some of her people going to follow her to Westeros? Its also likely that they will do so since they see her as their "mother", what then will happen to them when they are greeted with winter and a whole host of other problems? (The Others not including)

The disease was absolutely not caused by Dany or any of her people. It broke out in Astapor during the war with the Yunkai'i. There was an earlier report (unconfirmed) of a few cases of the disease in Dany's camps. Again, a careful reading of the text shows that the disease came from Astapor. it could have been contained there. However, the Yunkai'i, in an act of incredible evil stupidity, had their sellswords drive the diseased people to the gates of Meereen. There, naturally, the diseased individuals infected not only people in Meereen, but also the forces laying siege to the city.

I didn't say you claimed Meereen is starving. I said it isn't starving, and it isn't in present danger of starving. Furthermore, the hunger there is not Dany's fault. More can be added to this. The city is very rich. If Dany's forces win the war, then the probability that any of them will starve is about as close to zero as any future event can be. They will have a great deal of money. Food is widely available in Essos.

[averde]

Great job by the OP. A great leader but a terrible ruler is Danny, so far, in a nutshell. She may evolve into a better ruler in the same way she evolved into a leader but at this point it's fair to say she's terrible at ruling.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Great job by the OP. A great leader but a terrible ruler is Danny, so far, in a nutshell. She may evolve into a better ruler in the same way she evolved into a leader but at this point it's fair to say she's terrible at ruling.

I personally think she won't ever improve, if she does then good for Slaver's bay and Valyria.

[Kuma]

I did once describe her as "the Lindsay Lohan of Westeros" but I was only joking.

Arianne is much more a Paris Hilton/Lindsay Lohan figure.

Daneyrys is more like justin bieber with dragons instead of lamborghini :D

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Daneyrys is more like justin bieber :D

Thats an insult to Justin. :p

[Nictarion]

^ And comments like those are an insult to GRRM.

[IRON BANK]

I feel that Dany has the art of conquest down ruling though is different. we also have to realize that Dany openly states she is staying in mereen to learn how to rule.

[TheBadboy]

The ruling of Slaver's Bay was based on murder, greed, mass torture and slavery. Also the few upper class families keeping the other 99% under their heel. There is absolutely not one positive aspect of any of the Slaver's bay cities prior to Dany getting there. Anything she has done, even if it does not work out 100%, is better than how it was before. Utter chaos under Dany is better than the previous alternative.

I dont even understand the argument here. Is anyone actually advocating that Slaver's Bay was a nice place before Dany got there? That slavery and mass torture are better than what she is trying to do?

Anytime you install a new government of course there will be problems and trial and error. I salute her for trying to bring peace to the masses. She is trying to overturn a terrible culture that has reigned for millennia, good for her for being brave where no one else has ever even tried. Everyone else has just been ok with the status quo of Slaver's Bay, shame on them.

I hate bringing up these real world examples. But wasn't the North correct in going to war with the South over slavery? Didn't the southern inhabitants have an extremely hard time of life after the war? OF course they did, their entire culture was Gone with the Wind....Just because the southerners had to adjust greatly to the new laws and new life without slaves does not mean that it was not worth it. The North was right to stop them and to try an install new leadership that was not based on slavery and cotton mills. The inhabitants of Slaver's bay having to adjust to life without slaves is just the natural order of a slave culture suddenly having no slaves. Of course there are revolts and everyone does not accept the system, right away. But that does not mean someone (like Dany) should not at least try to make change in that part of the world. Someone had to start the revolution and if poster's on this forum want to fault her for it, then I say that they don't understand how bad it was before.

Also there is no basis for comparison. NO one has previously tried to help these people, so how can anyone say she is doing a bad job? THERE IS NO ONE TO COMPARE HER TO.

There is no rational argument that the vast majority of Slaver's Bay was (or will be) better off before she got there. There is no higher cause in human history than freedom, than giving freedom to an entire peoples.

Just because she didn't have a manual on exactly what she should have done at every turn does not make her a bad leader or a bad ruler. It makes her the first one to ever try any of this. It makes her a Pilgrim with no guidance whatsoever.

Awesome!

Make this a separate topic lol. This is like the best way to describe the situation in general.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

^ And comments like those are an insult to GRRM.

And comments like this are plainly stupid, when they don't get sarcasm.

[Nictarion]

And comments like this are plainly stupid, when they don't get sarcasm.

Anyone familiar with your opinion of Dany would have a hard time believing it was sarcasm.

[Chillboy]

@ OP

I totally agree with you. Daenerys is weak and thus a bad ruler.

[Dr. Qyburn]

The disease was absolutely not caused by Dany or any of her people. It broke out in Astapor during the war with the Yunkai'i. There was an earlier report (unconfirmed) of a few cases of the disease in Dany's camps. Again, a careful reading of the text shows that the disease came from Astapor. it could have been contained there. However, the Yunkai'i, in an act of incredible evil stupidity, had their sellswords drive the diseased people to the gates of Meereen. There, naturally, the diseased individuals infected not only people in Meereen, but also the forces laying siege to the city.

I didn't say you claimed Meereen is starving. I said it isn't starving, and it isn't in present danger of starving. Furthermore, the hunger there is not Dany's fault. More can be added to this. The city is very rich. If Dany's forces win the war, then the probability that any of them will starve is about as close to zero as any future event can be. They will have a great deal of money. Food is widely available in Essos.

:bang: For someone who is all about "careful reading" you obviously did not carefully read my posts. NO ONE is accusing Dany of bringing a disease. Since I do not want to repeat myself, I am just going to refer you to my earlier posts.

Food maybe available in Essos but who destroyed Meereen's relations with other free Cities by threatening to bring down their economic system?

Here are qoutes from ADWD to clarify,

Without slaves, Meereen had little to offer traders. Copper was plentiful in the Ghiscari hills, but the metal was not as valuable as it had been when bronze ruled the world. The cedars that had once grown tall along the coast grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria.

She took him out onto the terrace that overlooked the city. A full moon swam in the black sky above Meereen. “Shall we walk?” Dany slipped her arm through his. The air was heavy with the scent of night-blooming flowers. “You spoke of help. Trade with me, then. Meereen has salt to sell, and wine …”

“Ghiscari wine?” Xaro made a sour face. “The sea provides all the salt that Qarth requires, but I would gladly take as many olives as you cared to sell me. Olive oil as well.”

“I have none to offer. The slavers burned the trees.” Olives had been grown along the shores of Slaver’s Bay for centuries; but the Meereenese had put their ancient groves to the torch as Dany’s host advanced on them, leaving her to cross a blackened wasteland. “We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive. What of copper?”

“A pretty metal, but fickle as a woman. Gold, now … gold is sincere. Qarth will gladly give you gold … for slaves.”

“Meereen is a free city of free men.”

“A poor city that once was rich. A hungry city that once was fat. A bloody city that once was peaceful.”

His accusations stung. There was too much truth in them.

“Meereen is overcrowded and full of hungry mouths, and you have too many enemies within. "

Beyond these walls your only friends are the Lhazarene,

The disease could not have been contained there because the Astapori came to Mereen, to their Mother for help

“What of these Astapori?”

My children. “They are coming here for help. For succor and protection. We cannot turn our backs on them.”

I can scarce feed my own folk. If I had marched to Astapor, I would have lost Meereen.

Like Dany said, she can hardly feed her own folk. Because she's fighting two wars, an outbreak and has destroyed the only economic system Meereen had, the chances of a starvation are very high. After the wars, she would be left with a small labor force, that is likely to be sick and can hardly do much to grow the wheat and grapes she has planned. She is already giving out food to the sick people from Astapor which is commendable but the action is also depleting the stores of Meereen.

The decision to bring down slave trade, although good and honorable at face value, should not have been done by someone who is just passing by. If she hadn't brought down slave trade or at least if she had tried to come up with an alternative system and then tried to abolish slavery in stages, then things would have been very different and she would have been able to battle the flux more successfully.

You say they will have a great deal of money? Where will it come from?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Awesome!

Make this a separate topic lol. This is like the best way to describe the situation in general.

Thx a lot :)

[Bunners]

:bang: For someone who is all about "careful reading" you obviously did not carefully read my posts. NO ONE is accusing Dany of bringing a disease. Since I do not want to repeat myself, I am just going to refer you to my earlier posts.

Food maybe available in Essos but who destroyed Meereen's relations with other free Cities by threatening to bring down their economic system?

Here are qoutes from ADWD to clarify,

The disease could not have been contained there because the Astapori came to Mereen, to their Mother for help

Like Dany said, she can hardly feed her own folk. Because she's fighting two wars, an outbreak and has destroyed the only economic system Meereen had, the chances of a starvation are very high. After the wars, she would be left with a small labor force, that is likely to be sick and can hardly do much to grow the wheat and grapes she has planned. She is already giving out food to the sick people from Astapor which is commendable but the action is also depleting the stores of Meereen.

The decision to bring down slave trade, although good and honorable at face value, should not have been done by someone who is just passing by. If she hadn't brought down slave trade or at least if she had tried to come up with an alternative system and then tried to abolish slavery in stages, then things would have been very different and she would have been able to battle the flux more successfully.

You say they will have a great deal of money? Where will it come from?

This