Sansa and Petyr

[mambru]

I don't know why any of the Gold Cloaks outside of Slynt had to know this. Sure he stuck a knife at his throat, but it could be determined from afar that he used this to take Ned alive and without protest. Tyrion himself doesn't even seem to know, and seems to think it was all Janos Slynt's doings to get in the Queen's favor and become a Lord.

Petyr routinely pays the Gold Cloaks through Janos Slynt. Janos Slynt tells his Gold Cloaks that Ned is going to try to arrest the Queen and King and expects Janos and the Gold Cloaks to obey him, but the Gold Cloaks must kill Ned's men and arrest Ned instead. Ned marches in to the Throne Room with Janos (who the Gold Cloaks know for a FACT is planning to double-cross Ned) and LF next to him, because he trusts them to be on his side. Janos double-crosses Ned as the Gold Cloaks expect him to do, and LF AT THE SAME TIME smoothly takes advantage of Ned's shock to disarm and immobilize him, while dropping the telltale line "I did warn you not to trust me, you know."

IMO, it would seem pretty obvious to the Gold Cloaks afterwards that LF knew exactly what would happen beforehand, even if you disregard the additional possibility that some of the Gold Cloaks may have seen Slynt confer with LF before the throne room massacre, OR that they may have heard Ned's furious recrimination of LF's treachery while he was being dragged off AFTER the massacre.

[MyLittleFinger]

I have a suspicion that the scene where LF stumbled drunkenly into bed with Lysa Tully when he was a teenager at Riverrun will repeat itself, only with Sansa.

I could imagine almost any reaction from Sansa at that point, anywhere from fighting back and fleeing, maybe even killing LF in the process, to becoming an emotionally broken victim. How she reacts in that scene will be the defining moment for her whole character arc.

So LF is going to drink himself to near insensibility, then Sansa is going to rape him like Lysa did? Yeesh, well that would seal Sansa's fate with the fanbase.

[SpringKing]

He may know her but she doesn't know him well enough to trust him. She has put her trust in the wrong people before, one can not fault her for being cautious.

Short of Ned's resurrection, Bronze Yohn is as trustworthy an ally as Sansa will find in the Vale.

She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well.

And to Tyrions quote: it is not really a choice it is a dilemma. I agree with another Locust in this.

A dilemma is a difficult choice between undesirable alternatives. Sansa's arc is a continuum of one dilemma compounding another. ASOIAF abounds in difficult choices, to the point where Sam repeats the essential dilemma three times in the same chapter - "No happy choices, and no happy endings." At some juncture, Sansa must choose the cruel truth over the facile lie, or risk both death and dishonor.

[StarkNaked]

I have a suspicion that the scene where LF stumbled drunkenly into bed with Lysa Tully when he was a teenager at Riverrun will repeat itself, only with Sansa.

I could imagine almost any reaction from Sansa at that point, anywhere from fighting back and fleeing, maybe even killing LF in the process, to becoming an emotionally broken victim. How she reacts in that scene will be the defining moment for her whole character arc.

Petyr didn't stumble into bed with Lysa Tully. Petyr was passed out drunk in bed when Lysa took advantage of him.

As for Petyr and Sansa though, I can't see any way out of this storyline that doesn't end with Petyr's death. Though whether Sansa does the deed herself, brings it about, or has nothing to do with it and actually ends up mourning her "warm, funny and gentle" protector without ever finding out the truth of him is anybody's guess.

Personally, I think it'll most likely the second option, though you never know.....

[Sylva Santagar]

Petyr didn't stumble into bed with Lysa Tully. Petyr was passed out drunk in bed when Lysa took advantage of him.

As for Petyr and Sansa though, I can't see any way out of this storyline that doesn't end with Petyr's death. Though whether Sansa does the deed herself, brings it about, or has nothing to do with it and actually ends up mourning her "warm, funny and gentle" protector without ever finding out the truth of him is anybody's guess.

Personally, I think it'll most likely the second option I think, though you never know.....

yes... i expect to see option one or two.. i'm pretty sure petyr will die an unnatural death with sansa beeing the perpetrator.

[Ludo]

Short of Ned's resurrection, Bronze Yohn is as trustworthy an ally as Sansa will find in the Vale.

She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well.

A dilemma is a difficult choice between undesirable alternatives. Sansa's arc is a continuum of one dilemma compounding another. ASOIAF abounds in difficult choices, to the point where Sam repeats the essential dilemma three times in the same chapter - "No happy choices, and no happy endings." At some juncture, Sansa must choose the cruel truth over the facile lie, or risk both death and dishonor.

concerning bronce yohn: even if he is trustworthy, can she know that? What does your quote really give us. Bolton speaks quietly, too. I'm sure robert was a great hunter with a loud voice and Jamie is excellent with a sword. Does that make them trustworthy?

concerning dilemma: yes Sansa will have to face the truth that LF is not her friend, in order to have him killed. But not until she is in a position of power, where she can actually accomplish that. Untill then she has to endure whatever LF has in store for her. She may have to lie some more to herself to get through that.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

I have a suspicion that the scene where LF stumbled drunkenly into bed with Lysa Tully when he was a teenager at Riverrun will repeat itself, only with Sansa.

I could imagine almost any reaction from Sansa at that point, anywhere from fighting back and fleeing, maybe even killing LF in the process, to becoming an emotionally broken victim. How she reacts in that scene will be the defining moment for her whole character arc.

It was Lysa who stumbled into Littlefinger's bed and not the other way around, it took me a second read-through to realize that she date raped him and he got booted out of Riverrun for it. It partly explains why he used her so ruthlessly and personally murdered her. As for that happening to Sansa, I don't think it will get to that level. If he just wanted her physically, he would have taken her by now, she is basically his prisoner. Instead he keeps showing off how clever he is and telling her she's pretty- he wants her to fall in love with him

[mambru]

Alayne's means to resist require only that she enunciate the three sibilant syllables of her true name.

Lord Yohn ... He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection.

Or, as Tyrion puts it...

“There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.”

I happen to think that facile remark of Tyrion about slavery is Tyrion being an asshole rather than Tyrion enunciating some profound truth about slavery. Imagine going up to an actual slave - who is too immobilized by the fears for self, loyalties to family and friends, and the trauma from the long habit of being terrorized - repeating Tyrion's phrase to him, and concluding, "The fact that you're still a slave is therefore totally on you."

Sansa thinks Bronze Yohn may recognize her. Doesn't mean he's going to side with her against LF AND the Iron Throne. Sansa has been doublecrossed by people who honestly OWED her, such as Dontos Hollard, whose life she saved. Why should she expect Yohn to fight against LF and the Lannisters for HER sake? And LF is dangerous, especially in the Eyrie, on LF's own territory. He may be keeping his cool but his life is forfeit if he doesn't get off clean from Lysa's murder. If she tries to mess that up in the Eyrie who the fuck knows what he'd do? Take the Lords Declarant hostage? Whatever he does, it will probably involve very painful consequences for her and anyone involved who'd be a witness - including totally innocent people.

LF is capable of murder to cover his tracks. She knows it. She's seen him do it, more than once. He's also impressed on her to notion to always obey him, not only for her own sake but by threatening that he will kill innocent servants to whom she may accidentally give away his secrets, and blame the guilt for these murders on her. ("Do you want MORE blood on your hands, sweetling?") He's got her terrorized by her fear for self and even by her own conscience. And she's THIRTEEN. I think it's really too early for her to have learned enough to have the confidence to act against him.

How? LF is by most evidence, the most intelligent character in the series. And Sansa has only learned what Baelish has seen fit to teach her.

One word...hairnet.

Okay, more than one word...LF's schemes have been getting more baroque and complicated - which means more points where they can go wrong. Sansa doesn't need to be a supergenius and understand EVERYTHING about LF's complex schemes to ruin him - just know enough to throw a monkey wrench in at an especially vulnerable point. I think she eventually will learn enough and become sure enough of herself to do so.

[SpringKing]

concerning bronce yohn: even if he is trustworthy, can she know that? What does your quote really give us. Bolton speaks quietly, too. I'm sure robert was a great hunter with a loud voice and Jamie is excellent with a sword. Does that make them trustworthy?

Yohn was a guest at Winterfell, for a couple of weeks at least. That implies a certain friendship between he and Ned dating back to Ned's days in the Vale. Sansa remembers Yohn clearly. If she cannot decide to trust her father's friend, a man she has known and observed, preferring instead to continue trusting LF, who murdered both her aunt and Ser Dontos, then Sansa has no clue what trustworthy means. Which is pretty much the conclusion my quote provides.

concerning dilemma: yes Sansa will have to face the truth that LF is not her friend, in order to have him killed. But not until she is in a position of power, where she can actually accomplish that. Untill then she has to endure whatever LF has in store for her. She may have to lie some more to herself to get through that.

Sansa doesnt need to have LF killed, only exposed. Power resides where men believe it to be. LF believes Sansa's real identity to be powerful. She doesnt need to succeed to any position other than the one she's in to wield power - her name.

I happen to think that facile remark of Tyrion about slavery is Tyrion being an asshole rather than Tyrion enunciating some profound truth about slavery. Imagine going up to an actual slave - who is too immobilized by the fears for self, loyalties to family and friends, and the trauma from the long habit of being terrorized - repeating Tyrion's phrase to him, and concluding, "The fact that you're still a slave is therefore totally on you."

All of which obfuscating the fact that Tyrion's epigram is entirely true. In Sansa's situation, her continued bondage to LF is ultimately her own decision, be it now, or later.

Sansa thinks Bronze Yohn may recognize her. Doesn't mean he's going to side with her against LF AND the Iron Throne. Sansa has been doublecrossed by people who honestly OWED her, such as Dontos Hollard, whose life she saved. Why should she expect Yohn to fight against LF and the Lannisters for HER sake? And LF is dangerous, especially in the Eyrie, on LF's own territory. He may be keeping his cool but his life is forfeit if he doesn't get off clean from Lysa's murder. If she tries to mess that up in the Eyrie who the fuck knows what he'd do? Take the Lords Declarant hostage? Whatever he does, it will probably involve very painful consequences for her and anyone involved who'd be a witness - including totally innocent people.

Yohn was looking for an excuse to side against LF. Sansa, who heard Nestor say Yohn means to remove LF as Lord Protector, would have given him the perfect opportunity to do so. Who better to trust than the man most dead set against LF? As for LF taking the Lords Declarant hostage - far easier for the Lords to have taken LF hostage in that intimate setting than the reverse. Lothar Brune might have objected, but to the rest of the Eyrie staff, LF is a late-coming outsider. Had Sansa spoken up for herself, LF would have been caught between a rock and a hard ass.

LF is capable of murder to cover his tracks. She knows it. She's seen him do it, more than once. He's also impressed on her to notion to always obey him, not only for her own sake but by threatening that he will kill innocent servants to whom she may accidentally give away his secrets, and blame the guilt for these murders on her. ("Do you want MORE blood on your hands, sweetling?") He's got her terrorized by her fear for self and even by her own conscience. And she's THIRTEEN. I think it's really too early for her to have learned enough to have the confidence to act against him.

If LF has Sansa terrorized by fear and conscience now, how much stronger will his brainwashing grip on her grow as time passes? When youre stuck in a hole, you try to get out before the hole gets any deeper. Sansa's ELEVEN year old sister is capable of murder too. Arya certainly would have attempted to escape LF. The easy way for Sansa to have exited the Eyrie would have been to mess her dress at dinner, excuse herself to change, and ride the winch down with Yohn when he left early. But that would have taken the kind of pluck and nerve that only one of the Stark sisters possess.

[mambru]

All of which obfuscating the fact that Tyrion's epigram is entirely true.

So you think that slaves are slaves through their own fault?

Yohn was looking for an excuse to side against LF. Sansa, who heard Nestor say Yohn means to remove LF as Lord Protector, would have given him the perfect opportunity to do so. Who better to trust than the man most dead set against LF? As for LF taking the Lords Declarant hostage - far easier for the Lords to have taken LF hostage in that intimate setting than the reverse. Lothar Brune might have objected, but to the rest of the Eyrie staff, LF is a late-coming outsider. Had Sansa spoken up for herself, LF would have been caught between a rock and a hard ass.

Do you really think that Lothar Brune was LF's ONLY man at the Eyrie? That Lothar Brune personally tortured Marillion to the point of a false confession, hushed all the servants who saw Sansa with RED hair during Lysa's wedding, and otherwise kept shit quiet? Let's not be silly. LF knows how to establish a power base (including among the Lords Declarant themselves). And Sansa saw that the Eyrie was working smoothly with LF after Lysa's death, and could not know who was working with him there - and who would therefore side against her if she tried to go against LF.

[SpringKing]

No, I believe a slave chooses to be so over the other available options he perceives. It is not the slaves fault that slavery became an option.

[mambru]

No, I believe a slave chooses to be so over the other available options he perceives. It is not the slaves fault that slavery became an option.

They choose to be slaves because they lack "pluck and nerve"? I think it's just a LITTLE more complicated than that.

If you would hesitate to say that to a modern-day slave - such as, say, an underage prostitute who is terrorized by a pimp who has her under his control - then you might want to re-examine Tyrion's notion as smug and oversimplified.

[Éadaoin]

There's not a chance in Hell that Sansa will end up with Littlefinger— the man who has isolated her, groomed her, pushed unwanted sexual attentions on her, had her best friend undergo sadistic sexual "training" before giving her off to Ramsay freaking Bolton, who is hugely responsible for the death of her father, who framed her for regicide, who stopped her from potentially having happiness with Willas Tyrell (even if they did want her for her claim; it would've been better than being with LF), who played a large part in igniting the war that resulted in the destruction of her family, etc etc.

Nah. The Stark children are the heroes, and LF is one of the biggest villains around. Sansa will take him down.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

There's not a chance in Hell that Sansa will end up with Littlefinger— the man who has isolated her, groomed her, pushed unwanted sexual attentions on her, had her best friend undergo sadistic sexual "training" before giving her off to Ramsay freaking Bolton, who is hugely responsible for the death of her father, who framed her for regicide, who stopped her from potentially having happiness with Willas Tyrell (even if they did want her for her claim; it would've been better than being with LF), who played a large part in igniting the war that resulted in the destruction of her family, etc etc.

Nah. The Stark children are the heroes, and LF is one of the biggest villains around. Sansa will take him down.

All of this. Plus lets not forget the prophecy that looms over his head. LF death at Sansa's hand is inevitable. It's known ^_^

[E-Ro]

There's not a chance in Hell that Sansa will end up with Littlefinger— the man who has isolated her, groomed her, pushed unwanted sexual attentions on her, had her best friend undergo sadistic sexual "training" before giving her off to Ramsay freaking Bolton, who is hugely responsible for the death of her father, who framed her for regicide, who stopped her from potentially having happiness with Willas Tyrell (even if they did want her for her claim; it would've been better than being with LF), who played a large part in igniting the war that resulted in the destruction of her family, etc etc.

Nah. The Stark children are the heroes, and LF is one of the biggest villains around. Sansa will take him down.

Brah brah your fiery passion is inspiring! I love it tbh, ty yw smh. Anyway, I agree for the most part except for the part about the Starks being the heros. I don't think the series will have any sort of "heros" per say, and if it did the real hero would be Stannis, not any Stark. I def think sansa is going to take that scumbag LF out though.

Also you might want to relax just a bit, I know this sansa business gets you fired up, but your going to hurt someone. And there is no need for that.

[Éadaoin]

All of this. Plus lets not forget the prophecy that looms over his head. LF death at Sansa's hand is inevitable. It's known ^_^

Yeah there's obviously no way that LF makes it out of the series alive, even without Sansa taking him down. But it'll be much more satisfying for Sansa to be the one to do it, rather than someone else.

Brah brah your fiery passion is inspiring! I love it tbh, ty yw smh. Anyway, I agree for the most part except for the part about the Starks being the heros. I don't think the series will have any sort of "heros" per say, and if it did the real hero would be Stannis, not any Stark. I def think sansa is going to take that scumbag LF out though.

Also you might want to relax just a bit, I know this sansa business gets you fired up, but your going to hurt someone. And there is no need for that.

I think you're confused; Stannis is more of a villain than a hero. but YMMV.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Yeah there's obviously no way that LF makes it out of the series alive, even without Sansa taking him down. But it'll be much more satisfying for Sansa to be the one to do it, rather than someone else.

I think you're confused; Stannis is more of a villain than a hero. but YMMV.

You should totally read this it is a great meta that goes in depth that Sansa will take down littlefinger and how she will do it. And please keep it nice with E-ro.

[E-Ro]

I think you're confused; Stannis is more of a villain than a hero. but YMMV.

W

O

W

We both know this isn't true, ofc. Your just a clown.

You should totally read this it is a great meta that goes in depth that Sansa will take down littlefinger and how she will do it. And please keep it nice with E-ro.

:agree: :wub: Thank you so much for defending me brah! shes really mean to me tbh, idk why because im so innocent and lovable.

Anyway thanks for the link, I haven't read it yet bit it looks interesting. The pink background makes it a bit hard to read, but i will copy paste it into a word doc, as im super interpreted in this subject.

[Pod The Impaler]

It was Lysa who stumbled into Littlefinger's bed and not the other way around, it took me a second read-through to realize that she date raped him and he got booted out of Riverrun for it. It partly explains why he used her so ruthlessly and personally murdered her.

I would not got so far as to say this is why he killed her, but I think this is also why his thinks he took Catelyn's maidenhead - this was after his duel with Brandon, and he's delirious and drunk. I think he mistook Lysa for Catelyn at least the one time.

[SpringKing]

Do you really think that Lothar Brune was LF's ONLY man at the Eyrie? That Lothar Brune personally tortured Marillion to the point of a false confession, hushed all the servants who saw Sansa with RED hair during Lysa's wedding, and otherwise kept shit quiet? Let's not be silly. LF knows how to establish a power base (including among the Lords Declarant themselves). And Sansa saw that the Eyrie was working smoothly with LF after Lysa's death, and could not know who was working with him there - and who would therefore side against her if she tried to go against LF.

Power resides where men believe it to. The powers in the Vale are the Lords Declarant who have an army camped at the base of the unsupplied Eyrie. The Lords didnt go up to LF's lair thinking they'd better play nice or LF would drop the hammer on them. LF's 'power base' is built on secrets, lies, bribery and intimidation. Its extent may appear impressive but, actually, it's a house of cards most vulnerable were the fraud behind it exposed to face to face.

An opportunist like Lyn Corbray will desert him the moment LF's web starts to unravel. Even Lothor Brune, despite having Dontos featered, seems like a decent chap who'd be torn between supporting LF or Sansa. Then there's Mord, who's an excellent soldier when an enemy is always at his mercy, but likely not so awesome against righteously fired-up free men. Plus there's a handful of house cats with families in the Vale that the Lords control. All in all, LF's HQ isnt nearly a fearsome fount of strength. Particularly because there's nowhere else to go but down no matter what happens.

Not to mention Sansa's other obvious options - sneaking away or slipping the Lords a message. All of which are lost opportunities to her now. However, new alternatives are available at the Gates of the Moon, with a wider pool of potential allies for Sansa and a narrower range of options for LF. Except we know from Sansa's current mindset (Father and I have larger concerns) that she isnt voluntarily going against LF any time soon.

They choose to be slaves because they lack "pluck and nerve"? I think it's just a LITTLE more complicated than that.

If you would hesitate to say that to a modern-day slave - such as, say, an underage prostitute who is terrorized by a pimp who has her under his control - then you might want to re-examine Tyrion's notion as smug and oversimplified.

We see that Tyrion's notion of slavery as a choice isnt smug and oversimplified when he becomes a slave and then chooses, at great risk, not to be. The pimp & kiddy hoe analogy for LF and Sansa is quite apt. However, some child prostitutes do make the choice to free themselves from their pimp. Of those that do, pluck and nerve are at the heart of their decision. Some of those that dont are freed by other methods, notably getting busted accidentally. Which is precisely where Sansa's arc is pointed. Alayne isnt going to have some grand epiphany and decide to bring her father down on her own. Alayne is going to screw up royally, just like Sansa was prone to do, shredding LF's web of deceit and leaving the both of them exposed.

You should totally read this it is a great meta that goes in depth that Sansa will take down littlefinger and how she will do it.

QoT's monologue on the giant prophesy does go into depth but fails to deliver the crucial pearl of wisdom by neglecting to decipher how Sansa will bring LF down. In the snow castle scene Sansa means only to grab SR's hand but accidentally rips the giant dolls head off. SR is the savage motive force controlling the giant doll. Just as LF is the giant force controlling everything in Sansa's life. By accidentally killing SR with an OD of sweetsleep (its his head Maester Colemon is concerned with), Sansa effectively removes Lord Protector LF, the giant, as the 'head' of the Vale.

The bits about Sansa seeing through LF before taking him down are pure duff. She saw through him better early on. At present, she's almost completely morphed into Alayne, inside and out, the faux daughter dutifully following in her fake father's footsteps. When SR inevitably succumbs to an excess of sweetsleep, Sansa wont be mentally prepared for the consequences to LF. Just as she idolized Joff after he was exposed as a dung rat, Sansa will continue to mimic LF as he tumbles from power. Which could very well trigger the moment when his anger with her may result in a sexual assault.