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Small Questions v 10025


Stubby

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Why did Robert whore so much while alive? He was married to Cersei, possibly the hottest most beautiful woman in Westeros at that point. Surely he'd be more than happy with her, like every other man would be.

Without bashing Robert, this sounds suspiciously like you are assuming that physical beauty is all that is required for a healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship. Is that truly what "every other man" thinks?

:p

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Without bashing Robert, this sounds suspiciously like you are assuming that physical beauty is all that is required for a healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship. Is that truly what "every other man" thinks?

:P

Step#1 For a healthy relationship, physical attraction.

Step#2 Be attracted to a woman not having sex with her own brother who is not trying to kill you.

Step#3 Divorce

Step#4 Repeat

haha jk on #3 and #4

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Robert was still in love with Lyanna when he married Cersei, and Cersei's happiness about their marriage disappeared when he called her Lyanna during their wedding night, during the "deed". Cersei's hate grew ever since, and Robert was not particulary happy in his marriage.

And thus he turned to drinking and whoring.

“We have all been praying for Your Grace,” Septa Moelle said as they were climbing. “Yes,” Septa Scolera echoed, “and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding.”

I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled."

It's only in the show that Cersei says she loved Robert until he said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. In the books, the only other man, Cersei ever was attracted to was Rhaegar.

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Without bashing Robert, this sounds suspiciously like you are assuming that physical beauty is all that is required for a healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship. Is that truly what "every other man" thinks?

:p

I'm not some ignorant idiot to assume "that physical beauty is all that is required for a healthy and fulfilling relationship." Obviously there is more than that. But this wasn't the case in Robert and Cersei's marriage. Neither loved each other. That wasn't my original point. My point was why did Robert bother to whore when he had a beautiful wife, arguably more beautiful than most whores, awaiting him every night. Whether she loved him is irrelevant, as well as if she wanted it. In Westeros, men have the right to have sex with their wives, the woman's feelings of it regardless. Her desire doesn't factor into it, so the argument that it was a loveless marriage doesn't really matter. Robert only would have cared about the sex, so why not just have Cersei, instead of paying for whores? That was my original point.

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Why did Robert whore so much while alive? He was married to Cersei, possibly the hottest most beautiful woman in Westeros at that point. Surely he'd be more than happy with her, like every other man would be.

Because Cers would not sleep with him, so it was either rape or whores.

“A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?”

She lifted her head, defiant. “Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick

with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew, If truth be told, I can

scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways

to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber.

Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he’s forgotten it all by the next morning.”

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“We have all been praying for Your Grace,” Septa Moelle said as they were climbing. “Yes,” Septa Scolera echoed, “and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding.”

I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled."

It's only in the show that Cersei says she loved Robert until he said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. In the books, the only other man, Cersei ever was attracted to was Rhaegar.

Just because you love one person does not necessarily mean you cannot love another. Iirc the Lyanna thing is in the books too, in the Godswood Ned and Cersei scene. Cersei states she loved (infatuated may be a better word) Rhaegar, but by the time she was introduced to him, I am almost certain her and Jamie were already experimenting. That she slept with Jamie on the morning of her wedding does not mean she didn't love Robert. She was in fact momentarily happy when they were wed

The day she wed Robert Baratheon thousands had turned out to cheer for them. All the women wore their best, and half the men had children on their shoulders. When she had emerged from inside the Sept, hand in hand with the young King, the crowd let up a roar so loud it could be heard in Lannisport. "They like you well, my lady," Robert whispered in her ear. "See, every face is smiling." For that one short moment, she had been happy in her marriage... until she chanced to glance at Jamie.

I would say that this suggests she did love, or at the very least like Robert at first, but her feelings with Jamie conflicted with that.

Of course, the argument against that is that She had never forgiven Robert for killing Rhaegar. Its a complicated issue

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Just because you love one person does not necessarily mean you cannot love another. Iirc the Lyanna thing is in the books too, in the Godswood Ned and Cersei scene. Cersei states she loved (infatuated may be a better word) Rhaegar, but by the time she was introduced to him, I am almost certain her and Jamie were already experimenting. That she slept with Jamie on the morning of her wedding does not mean she didn't love Robert. She was in fact momentarily happy when they were wed

I would say that this suggests she did love, or at the very least like Robert at first, but her feelings with Jamie conflicted with that.

Of course, the argument against that is that She had never forgiven Robert for killing Rhaegar. Its a complicated issue

I see your point, but I always read that quote more as Cersei loved being the Queen more than she loved Robert. Thats why she was happy in their marriage for that moment, not that she was happy with Robert. The cheers from the crowd was the fulfillment of her lifelong dream to be the Queen, but she is conflicted between attaining her "professional" goal because it conflicts with her heart.

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“We have all been praying for Your Grace,” Septa Moelle said as they were climbing. “Yes,” Septa Scolera echoed, “and you must feel so much lighter now, clean and innocent as a maid on the morning of her wedding.”

I fucked Jaime on the morning of my wedding, the queen recalled."

It's only in the show that Cersei says she loved Robert until he said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. In the books, the only other man, Cersei ever was attracted to was Rhaegar.

Not only in the show did Cersei admit to her marriage to Robert having had a chance of succeeding at first. I wasn't hinting at her loving him though. I only said that she was happy with her marriage for a short while. @Florence's Machine provided the quote I had in mind while replying earlier.

Just because you love one person does not necessarily mean you cannot love another. Iirc the Lyanna thing is in the books too, in the Godswood Ned and Cersei scene. Cersei states she loved (infatuated may be a better word) Rhaegar, but by the time she was introduced to him, I am almost certain her and Jamie were already experimenting. That she slept with Jamie on the morning of her wedding does not mean she didn't love Robert. She was in fact momentarily happy when they were wed

I would say that this suggests she did love, or at the very least like Robert at first, but her feelings with Jamie conflicted with that.

Of course, the argument against that is that She had never forgiven Robert for killing Rhaegar. Its a complicated issue

Cersei was happy when wedding Robert. She was marrying a handsom man, and would be his queen. After Rhaegar's death, that was the best match she could have hoped for.

Robert crushed her happiness by calling her by Lyanna's name during their first bedding. Even though Cersei would not have loved Robert yet during their wedding, Robert almost certainly destroyed his chances of having Cersei ever loving him by that act. It all went downhill from there.

Cersei and Jaime had been experimenting with each other before Joanna died, and by the time Cersei married Robert, Joanna had been dead for almost 10 years. Cersei only met Rhaegar when she was 10, after Joanna's death, so yes, when she met Rhaegar, she and Jaime had already been experimenting with one another.

I see your point, but I always read that quote more as Cersei loved being the Queen more than she loved Robert. Thats why she was happy in their marriage for that moment, not that she was happy with Robert. The cheers from the crowd was the fulfillment of her lifelong dream to be the Queen, but she is conflicted between attaining her "professional" goal because it conflicts with her heart.

Like I said, Cersei would not have loved Robert at that moment, but that wasn't what I was trying to say with my earlier post. Cersei liked him well enough, it seems, and she was happy with her situation. You are right to say that her becomming a queen was an important factor in that, and Robert's physical appearance would have been an important factor as well. Instead of handsome Rhaegar who would have one day been a King, she would marry handsome Robert, who already was a King.

But like I said, when Robert was bedding her for the first time and he whispered Lyanna's name in Cersei's ear, Robert practially destroyed every chance of Cersei ever loving him in the future. Had he been able to keep his mouth shut, Cersei's happiness might have continued, and her attitude towards Robert would have been different as well, which could have lead to Robert at least liking her, if not loving her.

Cersei's attitude towards Robert became colder after their wedding night (due to the "Lyanna" thing), and Robert reacted to that the way he did, by drinking and whoring, and not bothering at a certain moment to keep it a secret. That caused Cersei to react to that, by becomming more distant. It would be like a downward spiral. One of them does something which causes the other to react with more hatred, which in turn will cause the first person to react colder, etc.

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I'm not some ignorant idiot to assume "that physical beauty is all that is required for a healthy and fulfilling relationship." Obviously there is more than that. But this wasn't the case in Robert and Cersei's marriage. Neither loved each other. That wasn't my original point. My point was why did Robert bother to whore when he had a beautiful wife, arguably more beautiful than most whores, awaiting him every night. Whether she loved him is irrelevant, as well as if she wanted it. In Westeros, men have the right to have sex with their wives, the woman's feelings of it regardless. Her desire doesn't factor into it, so the argument that it was a loveless marriage doesn't really matter. Robert only would have cared about the sex, so why not just have Cersei, instead of paying for whores? That was my original point.

Didn't mean to imply you are! That was sort of in the vein of a joke, although I did see a logic flaw in your question, and still do.

This is all addressed above, but in short it's clear that ultimately Cersei and Robert despised each other, and that she actively avoided him. Furthermore he did (try) to have sex with her, as his duty required. So why on earth would he seek her out exclusively, as you suggest, just because she's beautiful? The suggestion either ignores the fact that there is after all an emotional element to fulfilling sex (ie Robert was seeking something that was lacking in his marriage by visiting young, cheerful whores) or implies something far more disturbing, that he would have or should have "just taken" her.

In the end my jest was dancing around the fact that even in your original question there seemed to be a hint that rape should have been preferable to Robert just because she is beautiful. Given what we know about Robert, and since rape is about power and domination, not sex or beauty or desire, I reject that notion completely-- in spite of your argument about a husband's rights and a wife's lack of power in Westerosi marriages.

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" Her desire doesn't factor into it, so the argument that it was a loveless marriage doesn't really matter. Robert only would have cared about the sex, so why not just have Cersei, instead of paying for whores? That was my original point. "



Because it was in his nature, L (who he supposedly loved) did not expect that Robert would transform into a monogamous happily married man. If would likely of whored around on L why would he not do so to Cerci The only difference is that Robert might of been discrete in his persuits if he had married L not only because he had true feelings for her but because would not have wanted to dishonor Ned (his foster brother and best friend) or the Starks. He had no concerns about the Lannisters as he looked down on Jaime as a Kingslayer .


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Does Ned and Tyrion ever have a conversation? I know it can only happen in GoT but too tired to search. Thanks in advance

Possibly, either he spoke to him or someone spoke to him on his behalf:

With Lord Eddard Stark’s permission, Tyrion had borrowed a

few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

There may be more but this is the only instance that pops to mind.
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Not in the books, but presumably sometime at the end of the rebellion.

You mean Roberts Rebellion? Tyrion was a little boy at Casterly Rock during the Rebellion (8 turning 9 that year). Perhaps at the wedding of Robert and Cersei, but I guess they would simply be introduced to one another there. But I dont think a 10 year old boy and a 21 year old man would be having a conversation when the man hates the family of the boy.

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You mean Roberts Rebellion? Tyrion was a little boy at Casterly Rock during the Rebellion (8 turning 9 that year). Perhaps at the wedding of Robert and Cersei, but I guess they would simply be introduced to one another there. But I dont think a 10 year old boy and a 21 year old man would be having a conversation when the man hates the family of the boy.

There is also the Greyjoy Rebellion, although why Ned would see Tyrion after this I dont quite know

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I don't think there are any actual words written where they are speaking to one another, but there are places that make you think they had to have at least spoken, even if briefly, like how Tyrion slaps Joff around about offering his condolences to the Starks you would think that Tyrion at least had the decency to have done the same.


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it may be futile for some to talk about what's nowhere in the text, but the character is in the text.


Tyrion is growing, but his first and second times in Winterfell he is still small. Not frightful though, and he knows all about duty and his curtesies. We don't see Tyrion the commander except when he teaches Joffrey, and where @mindchap notes:




I don't think there are any actual words written where they are speaking to one another, but there are places that make you think they had to have at least spoken, even if briefly, like how Tyrion slaps Joff around about offering his condolences to the Starks you would think that Tyrion at least had the decency to have done the same.





...we can assume that he will have asked for admission to the library and he may even have tried to talk about books with Ned. Did he borrow a book or two for the journey? He would have told someone of the household, if not Ned himself.



ETA: Now I've come to think about this some more, Tyrion would have been a fool only to look for books about dragons. Having met the Direwolf pups, if I was Tyrion, I might not have made a stir for it, but try to read all about those on the way.


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...we can assume that he will have asked for admission to the library and he may even have tried to talk about books with Ned. Did he borrow a book or two for the journey? He would have told someone of the household, if not Ned himself.

He asked Ned himself, from aGoT Tyrion II :

With Lord Eddard Stark's permission, Tyrion had borrowed a few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

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He asked Ned himself, from aGoT Tyrion II :

With Lord Eddard Stark's permission, Tyrion had borrowed a few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

Thanks, good to know some books survived the burning of the library tower. The line does not say he did the asking himself, but why should he not.

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