Small Questions v 10025

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Engrossed with the Boltons...

The wiki doesn't know Roose Bolton's age, it seems the text doesn't know it either. Roose may have been a counsillor to Robert at the time of the Battle of the Trident, at least he meant to have Ser Barristan killed...

In Reek III he says:

Does he think of his own age? Or his possible violent demise in a few years? The latter doesn't make much sense, it must be due to age. Or have I just missed something?

I'm guessing that Roose is speaking of the war, and the fact that he'll die because of it within a few years.

Roose was married twice before Fat Walda, and looking at Domeric's life span (4 years a page, 3 years a squire : with a highborn usually becomming a page at the age of 8 or 9, and a squire at 11 or 12, Domeric was at least 15 years old when he died, assuming he went to search for Ramsay immediately after his return from the Vale; this put's Domeric's birth around 281/282 AC), Roose's second marriage occured around 280 AC. He had been wed once before, though we don't know how long that marriage lasted, or how old he was upon first marrying. Since highborn men in Westeros seem to marry at some point in their twenties when there is no rush (with Robb, for example, there was a rush to produce heirs, which is why he consented to marrying so young; with Edmure, there was little rush, and he was still unwed in his mid-twenties), Roose would be at least in his mid forties, I'd estimate.

So it doesn't seem to be his age to me.

But now, Roose does find himself involved in a war in the North, with Stark bannermen looking for chances to dispose of him, with Ramsay and his violent nature growing more and more influental (due to his marriage to "Arya"), and with Ironmen still battling, and with Stannis approaching. Fat Walda is pregnant now, and because of the winter, some of Roose's problems (aka Stannis) might solve themselves, but there is little indication that come spring, the northmen won't jump on the chance to rid themselves of Roose at least. In winter, it's best to stay quiet and go with the pack, but when spring comes around (in a few years) the northmen might have figured out a way to rid themselves of Roose, who killed their king.

[HexMachina]

It could also be his age though, based on your estinates Rhaenys. Mid to late fourties now, plus one year (well, less than that but you know) plus 15-16 years for that one child to reach manhood does put Roose in his 50's at best and 60's at worst. Life expectancy is obviously not what it is in the present day, so its not unreasonable to assume death by old age is a common threat for a man in his sixties.

Alternatively, could Roose be referring to the Northmen 'custom' for want of a better word, of the older generation sacraficing their lives during Wi.ter so that the Young will live? I know Roose isnt the best liked man, but he is a Northerner, so its not completely out there

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, I'd say Roose is reaching those 50ies about now, (totally forgot to add the three years that have passed since Domeric's death above hehe) at his best, and might even already be mid 50ies. Though Tywin Lannister is the same age (mid fifties) and no one expects him to die of age either...

The custom for walking out into the snow and not returning, IIRC, is a custom mostly for the mountain clans in the North, which is done by the old men of the mountain clans up north, though Alys Karstark does mention that something similar happens at Karhold. Still, it seems to me that it would be unlikely for a highborn lord to do such a thing, when he can also die comfortably in his own warm bed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Will Jalabhar Xho ever reclaim the Summer Islands?

I believe he was just lord over a part of the Summer Isles and run out or exiled, no?

[wolf woman]

Has anyone discussed the fact that while Roose Bolton is very much aware of Theon's use of "my lord" and instructs him to say "m'lord" to sound less highborn (in ADWD), he never seems to notice that Arya always answers him with 'my lord' when they were at Harrenhal (ACOK, ASOS).

Did he ever wonder who this highborn girl who freed a bunch of northmen might be? Talk about a missed opportunity!

(First post! Whee!)

[sertravisredbeard]

I bet he would have interrogated her slowly and thought he would find out that way. Roose doesn't really seem like the kind of person to immediately press and question people. He might have been wanting to gain her trust and get her story out of her a little bit at a time. He just didn't think she'd run away that quickly.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Has anyone discussed the fact that while Roose Bolton is very much aware of Theon's use of "my lord" and instructs him to say "m'lord" to sound less highborn (in ADWD), he never seems to notice that Arya always answers him with 'my lord' when they were at Harrenhal (ACOK, ASOS).

Did he ever wonder who this highborn girl who freed a bunch of northmen might be? Talk about a missed opportunity!

(First post! Whee!)

Bienvenidos, dude. It's a very interesting potential clue that Roose suspected Arya's identity. It's been the subject of threads in the past. Here's one...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92124-does-roose-bolton-know-nan-is-arya-stark/

[jarl the climber]

Has anyone discussed the fact that while Roose Bolton is very much aware of Theon's use of "my lord" and instructs him to say "m'lord" to sound less highborn (in ADWD), he never seems to notice that Arya always answers him with 'my lord' when they were at Harrenhal (ACOK, ASOS).

Did he ever wonder who this highborn girl who freed a bunch of northmen might be? Talk about a missed opportunity!

(First post! Whee!)

At first she did not address him with any title and he had to correct her and it still took her a couple of times to get it right. The day she left she asked him a question and he reacted like a piece of furniture had talked to him. He also said in such a way that she would have pronounced it correctly. he said to address him as My Lord not m'lord. I'm not sure if he ever figured it out after the fact. Some of the Brave Companions figured it out because they captured Brotherhood members that were looking for her after the Hound absconded with her. Not sure if these tales ever made it back to him through his own men or the Freys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Arianne mentions that it had taken her half a year to seduce Arys into sleeping with her. Arys' chapter from aFfC suggests that they have been sleeping together for a while now. So Arys has been in Dorne more than half a year. That indicates that he left KL more than half a year ago, since not only the half year it took Arianne to seduce him is in count, but also the time they have been sleeping together, and the time it took him to get to Sunspear, from KL via Braavos.

After the Battle of the Blackwater, Tywin Lannister tells Tyrion that Myrcella has safely reached Sunspear. I assume that such a letter would be send within a day of Myrcella's arrival, since's it's a relatively important event. Even though Tywin tells Tyrion this more than 2 or 3 weeks after the Blackwater, Tyrion has been ill, and Tywin has no POV. For all we know, Tywin received the letter the day after the Blackwater.

So does this meant that between Tyrion learning about Myrcella's arrival and Arys' chapter, roughly 6 months have passed?

[Bob Sacamano]

This may be an "in between" question from small to a topic. But I was wondering. What would happen if the Royal Baratheons are legitimate AND Melisandre still seeks out Stannis? Does Stannis do anything? I believe he wouldn't give two shits. He'd just brush it off and laugh (if he ever laughs). So, I think Melisandre got lucky that the Baratheons are bastards, cause if they weren't Stannis wouldn't talk to her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This may be an "in between" question from small to a topic. But I was wondering. What would happen if the Royal Baratheons are legitimate AND Melisandre still seeks out Stannis? Does Stannis do anything? I believe he wouldn't give two shits. He'd just brush it off and laugh (if he ever laughs). So, I think Melisandre got lucky that the Baratheons are bastards, cause if they weren't Stannis wouldn't talk to her.

It's important what Stannis believes. If Joffrey was legitimate, but Stannis still believed he was a bastard, he would still fight.

Only if Stannis was convinced himself that Joffrey was legit, would he not fight.

[Bob Sacamano]

It's important what Stannis believes. If Joffrey was legitimate, but Stannis still believed he was a bastard, he would still fight.

Only if Stannis was convinced himself that Joffrey was legit, would he not fight.

That's my thought as well. It all hinges on Stannis. So I guess Melisandre did get lucky! Without the twincest, there is no Azor Ahai!!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That's my thought as well. It all hinges on Stannis. So I guess Melisandre did get lucky! Without the twincest, there is no Azor Ahai!!

I don't think she got lucky necessarily. Everything that happens in Westeros needs/needed to happen in order for the next big event to happen. I'm not sure if I can put it to words correctly, but every action get's a reaction, and Melisandre is truly able to see things in her flames. It's like with Cersei, who aldready partly fulfilled her own prophecy (about the number of children she'd have). Cersei heard the prophecy and acted accordingly, creating the events that the prophecy predicted (unwillingly). Melisandre saw things in her flames and acted upon those visions, and thus created the events she saw. Now, she is not responsible for everything, naturally, but I doubt she'd ever been shown the way to Stannis had Stannis not had a legit reason to fight a war.

Everything is connected together, and the war for the throne is connected with the bigger picture (the Others). Had there been no twincest, and had Stannis not believed the twincest, than Melisandre would have found another way to her endgoal, guided by another set of visions. Who knows where she would have ended up.

[Cubarey]

"It's important what Stannis believes. If Joffrey was legitimate, but Stannis still believed he was a bastard, he would still fight.
Only if Stannis was convinced himself that Joffrey was legit, would he not fight."

Think that is backward, he onlyu fought because he was convinced that Joffrey was illegitimate. Ig M was not their he still would have claimed the crown and would have fought Renley. This is important because Stannis in his own way does what he believes is right. He uses the Red God and M at least as much as they use him. But he starts from the position that he belives Joffrey to be illegitimate and thus that he is the rightful heir.

[Bob Sacamano]

"It's important what Stannis believes. If Joffrey was legitimate, but Stannis still believed he was a bastard, he would still fight.

Only if Stannis was convinced himself that Joffrey was legit, would he not fight."

Think that is backward, he onlyu fought because he was convinced that Joffrey was illegitimate. Ig M was not their he still would have claimed the crown and would have fought Renley. This is important because Stannis in his own way does what he believes is right. He uses the Red God and M at least as much as they use him. But he starts from the position that he belives Joffrey to be illegitimate and thus that he is the rightful heir.

Yes, he would have, no doubt about it. I guess I didn't make it clear in my question, my bad. I'll clarify: If Stannis believes the children are legitimate, how would he react to Melisandre's assertions?

[jet199]

If the Hound and the Mountain are to be Dunk's descendants (assuming there has not been an Osgrey/Clegane marriage) who does Dunk need to bed.

Would it be the hero kennelmaster's wife, his son's wife or would it be a generation earlier and Dunk would be the first Clegane's father?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"It's important what Stannis believes. If Joffrey was legitimate, but Stannis still believed he was a bastard, he would still fight.

Only if Stannis was convinced himself that Joffrey was legit, would he not fight."

Think that is backward, he onlyu fought because he was convinced that Joffrey was illegitimate. Ig M was not their he still would have claimed the crown and would have fought Renley. This is important because Stannis in his own way does what he believes is right. He uses the Red God and M at least as much as they use him. But he starts from the position that he belives Joffrey to be illegitimate and thus that he is the rightful heir.

But that's what I said, right? Stannis believed Joff to be a bastard, and thus he claimed the throne. Had Stannis believed Joff was truly Robert's son (and thus legit), he would never have gone after the throne.

[Cubarey]

At least a generation earlier. The kennelmeister would have to be Dun's son if not grandchild.

"If Stannis believes the children are legitimate, how would he react to Melisandre's assertions?"

Stannis is not a usurper. If he Ned had not sent the letter declaring Joffrey's illigitimacy he would not have declared himself King. He may belive in a "cold" form of Justice" but he is overall a rightious man

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If the Hound and the Mountain are to be Dunk's descendants (assuming there has not been an Osgrey/Clegane marriage) who does Dunk need to bed.

Would it be the hero kennelmaster's wife, his son's wife or would it be a generation earlier and Dunk would be the first Clegane's father?

It could be the grandmother of Sandor and Gregor, or it could be one generation up. Gregor was born in 265/266 AC, Sandor in 270/271 AC. By then Dunk had already died, so he cannot be their father.

Lowborns usually marry somewhat later than highborns, IIRC. So to calculate, I placed them in the middle (since they did become a house after saving Tytos).

With Gregor's father being around 25 when his first son was born, he would have been born roughly around 240 AC (Dunk would have been in his 50ies). One generation up (Gregor's grandfather) would have been born roughly around 215AC (Dunk was in his early 20ies).

So it could be either, assuming the wives were about the same age (though around the time Gregor's father would have been born, Dunk would have been a KG already, so that seems very unlikely).

There are the following options: Dunk is the father of Gregor's grandfather. Dunk being the grandfather of Sandor and Gregor is not an option, due to Dunk having already been a KG knight when their father was born (and Dunk would want to stick to his vows).

[HexMachina]

At least a generation earlier. The kennelmeister would have to be Dun's son if not grandchild.

"If Stannis believes the children are legitimate, how would he react to Melisandre's assertions?"

Stannis is not a usurper. If he Ned had not sent the letter declaring Joffrey's illigitimacy he would not have declared himself King. He may belive in a "cold" form of Justice" but he is overall a rightious man

No, Stannis was already aware of the illegitimacy of Robert's children; he was the one who set Jon Arryn on the trail, because he knew Robert wouldn't listen to him alone. Ned's letter never reach him iirc.

But that is besides the point, both myself and Rhaenys are actually saying that Stannis would only have declared himself King if he knew or believed that Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella were bastards. We both acknowledge he only pressed the claim because he believed himself the rightful heir. I don't quite know why you thought Rhaenys was disagreeing :p

My own question: where does the information regarding the colours of Alicent's and Rhenyra's gowns come from? Obviously its right at the end of tPatQ, but surely there is a bit more than that. Is there an SSM somewhere?