Mikkel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 So from that, one can infer that Stannis shows some degree of belief in the red god. He certainly seems to (grudgingly) accept that Mel has power, and she believes it comes from her god. Stannis' exact beliefs are unknown - but it's safe to say he's not filled with religious fervor, it's a tool to him and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AintNoStark Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Glad reading the posts here; people who say Stannis truly worships the red god like Ned worshipped the old gods is pretty annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbold Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 He certainly seems to (grudgingly) accept that Mel has power, and she believes it comes from her god. Stannis' exact beliefs are unknown - but it's safe to say he's not filled with religious fervor, it's a tool to him and nothing more. Im not calling Stannis a fanatic at all (unlike his fans!!), but going by your statement, if he knows that Melisandre has power, then i think one cannot deny that he must have a degree of belief in her god. That is to say, you can't have one without the other: "ok you have powers and all, but i think your god is full of bs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Im not calling Stannis a fanatic at all (unlike his fans!!). Have you met all Stannis fans since you are making such a ridiculous generalised statement? :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Im not calling Stannis a fanatic at all (unlike his fans!!), but going by your statement, if he knows that Melisandre has power, then i think one cannot deny that he must have a degree of belief in her god. That is to say, you can't have one without the other: "ok you have powers and all, but i think your god is full of bs". Eh, I'm of the opinion that he does think R'hllor exists, but I don't see why believing in his existence and believing in Melisandre's power are necessarily tied. He could just think of her magic as being a force of nature, like thunder or earthquakes, and not actually falling under the purview of any deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbold Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Eh, I'm of the opinion that he does think R'hllor exists, but I don't see why believing in his existence and believing in Melisandre's power are necessarily tied. He could just think of her magic as being a force of nature, like thunder or earthquakes, and not actually falling under the purview of any deity. But that is exactly what those supposed conversations with Davos indicate isn't ? By observing the results of Mel's power, he reaches a point where he simply says "can't deny his existance now can i?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 But that is exactly what those supposed conversations with Davos indicate isn't ? By observing the results of Mel's power, he reaches a point where he simply says "can't deny his existance now can i?" That's true on the show. His sticking point in the dungeon scene seems to be his inability to deny that R'hllor exists, and that being the case he can't deny what R'hllor/Melisandre want of him (for very long, anyway). In the books he never has that exact conversation. His sticking point is whether or not he can afford to disregard Melisandre's warnings, which works whether he believes in R'hllor or just in Melisandre's magical abilities, but he never actually debates R'hllor's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowzeye Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The fact that he's willing to sacrifice Edric Storm, his own nephew says a lot.I think Stannis believes that there's R'hollor who has some power but it still boils down to him to win. Stannis believes but he's not a zealot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 "He is with them, but not of them." - DavosHave you met all Stannis fans since you are making such a ridiculous generalised statement? :bang: Stan fans aren't fanatics at all. To be fair, "fan" is short for "fanatic"... :leaving: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I dont think either show or book Stannis is a fanatic, show Stannis requires you to read between the lines in a way, a bit like book Stannis does. Keep calm and trust what Davos says, Stannis lives up to it before long... Then they'll see... They'll ALL see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Even if he doesn't become a fanatic himself, Stannis will likely try to use his army of fanatics to convert more to oppress the people of Westeros under his rule. He has shown he will stop at nothing for power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoynar Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Stannis is an atheist, he says it explicitly when he tells Davos he saw his parents' ship sink. He knows Melisandre has power and he uses her to his own advantage, but he doesn't believe in her god. His view on religion is instrumental: he tolerates believers of other faiths, such as the King's men (Davos et al) and the northern clansmen. Also, he often mocks zealots: "pray harder". Also, when speaking with Asha he forgets he only believes in one god: ASHA: "Make me your man"STANNIS: "The gods did not make you a man. How can I?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Im not calling Stannis a fanatic at all (unlike his fans!!), but going by your statement, if he knows that Melisandre has power, then i think one cannot deny that he must have a degree of belief in her god. That is to say, you can't have one without the other: "ok you have powers and all, but i think your god is full of bs". Yeah, the level of fanatism in this thread is staggering... oh wait, it's reasonable arguments over interpretation. But nice ad hominem, real classy. Anyway, I disagree. Acknowledging power isn't per definition the same as believing the source of that power to know everything. I'm not denying that Melisandre believes her power originates with her god - and perhaps she's right, but probably not in the way she thinks - but that's not the same as Stannis believing her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shearstone Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I will say, as a Stannis fan, it really pisses me off that he burned the statues of the seven, allowed his men to attack the sept at Dragonstone, burned the godswood in Storm's End, and left Selyse unpunished for burning Sunglass and the Rambton boys. Atheist or not, if he allows his men to attack other people's faiths, his reign is going to be bloody one.I'm hoping he doesn't burn the godswood in Winterfell. If he does there'll be a lot of dead southerners immediately after. Luckily I don't think he's that stupid and if he had the option of offering Jon Snow Winterfell again I think he would remove the conversion part, he must be learning quickly how the north works something he liked when making his initial offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thendel Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The fact that he's willing to sacrifice Edric Storm, his own nephew says a lot.I think Stannis believes that there's R'hollor who has some power but it still boils down to him to win. Stannis believes but he's not a zealot Considering is the key word, not willing. And it says something about Stannis' ruthlessness, but nothing about his devotion to the Lord of Light. And I am truly astonished how often Stanstans around here get accused of being fanatics. Kindly stop going ad hominem, people, it does nothing to validate your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 He is allowing Mel to preach her extremist violence, openly allies himself with that fate, does in fact burn people alive in honor of this deity, and rejects all other religions as false when it suits him like when he tells Jon his NW vows don't count. Even if its just to gain an advantage, its how people see him and the message he sends with the flaming stag as his sigil and Mel by his side. Stannis doesn't need to truly believe in Rhllor to be a religious zealot. He's allowing the zealotry to go on, then he is a zealot. This pretty much. Pretty much this.The fact that he doesn't really believe in it makes it worse IMO. Worse? His not believing is what curbs the zealotry, executions to Gods are not limited to Rhalloo, and all those executed are on death row anyway, Stannis allows people to worship as long as they obey his laws, which means he doesnt do a Vic and burn the pretty girls. This is not zealotry, no more than keeping to the Old Gods is. As far as him accepting Rhalloo and his men converting, grin and bear it, stopping them from preaching shows a lack of tolerance similar to what they'd attempt to show were he not there to keep them in line. It took the Old Gods and the Seven a long time to co-exist. Now they're going to have to live with the red god (who is coming with or without Stannis) and likewise, seeing how Stannis has servants of all three, step one is taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AintNoStark Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Even if he doesn't become a fanatic himself, Stannis will likely try to use his army of fanatics to convert more to oppress the people of Westeros under his rule. He has shown he will stop at nothing for power. This doesn't even make any sense. 'Oppress the people of Westeros because he will stop at nothing for power!' Since when was Stannis a Mojo-Jojo style villain who wants to destroy stuff because because? Funny how Stanfans are called fanatics (despite never making bold outright baseless statements) when it is our King who is at the receiving end of such ridiculous baseless statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 If he does there'll be a lot of dead southerners immediately after. Luckily I don't think he's that stupid and if he had the option of offering Jon Snow Winterfell again I think he would remove the conversion part, he must be learning quickly how the north works something he liked when making his initial offer. Probably. His offer at the Wall seemed to come from him believing that unity was required (which it was and is), so he wanted the wildlings/giants and Jon (and by proxy the Northmen) serving the one realm, united under the one king and the one god. His belief that the North would flock to Jon, and his insistence on a political marriage with Val to cement the wildlings' allegiance, follows the same line of thought. However, with his time at the Wall and the advice Jon's given, Stannis seems to have learned that it won't be that easy to get everyone united under the one banner, so he's intent on fighting the Boltons, punishing Theon, saving Arya and liberating Winterfell in order to prove his cause to the Northmen and get them on side. Burning Winterfell's incredibly historic and meaningful godswood would be completely counter-productive. Really odd, too. He was careful about burning anything on the way to Winterfell when the Northmen still needed him; deciding to burn the 'heart' of Winterfell at a point where the Northmen don't need him as much would be suicidal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFeastForDragons Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Why didn't Ramsey burn the Godswood? Surely that would have been undeniable proof that the Iron Born torched Winterfell. Stannis's doesn't allow his men to rape when they come to the wall. There is no way he is allowing the Queen's Men burn the Godswood and risk the North turning on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Stannis's doesn't allow his men to rape when they come to the wall. There is no way he is allowing the Queen's Men burn the Godswood and risk the North turning on him.Wasn't burning the GW one of the conditions of his offer to make Jon lord of WF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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