Suspicions I: The Three Heads

[TheCrannogDweller]

So FAegon is real?

Yes, ®Aegon is real.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Born a Targaryen.

Raised a Stark.

Named Snow.

That's pretty much the only way I see the 3-Headed Jon argument making any sense.

I don't buy that theory, btw.

Edit: The way I see it, the "dragon must have three heads" and the Prince that was Promised are two different things. There is a chance that TPTWP is one of the heads though.

Anyway, I don't think it's a coincidence that Rhaegar speaks of 3 heads, and there just happen to be 3 living descendants of Aerys.

I agree. Rhaegar says "the dragon has three heads", not Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised or Aegon, just the dragon. So the dragon being a direct Targ symbol, automatically excludes the Starks and Snow and all that. I mean, if Rhaegar had said "The Prince that was Promised must have three heads", then yes, I'd buy the theory.

But he said "dragon", so I think it means that House Targaryen as a whole must have 3 descendants or 3 dragon riders, or it means that Rhaegar read somewhere that the PtwP/AA must be a child of three ("Mother of Dragons, child of three"), so that's why Aegon needed a brother/sister to truly fulfill the prophecy, and that's why Rhaegar first thought he was AA but then he seemed to lose hope, because there was no sign of Rhaella having another baby, so Rhaegar took it upon himself to fulfill the damn thing. It also explains why he went with Lyanna, because Elia was too weak and people thought she was unlikely to have another child.

[Lord Thornhart]

Oh yeah, and Jon is the obvious answer to three prophecies: The song of ice and fire, the prince that was promised, and Azor Ahai. These could also be his three heads.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes, ®Aegon is real.

Ok sure.

Oh yeah, and Jon is the obvious answer to three prophecies: The song of ice and fire, the prince that was promised, and Azor Ahai. These could also be his three heads.

Are you serious or sarcastic?

[TheCrannogDweller]

I agree. Rhaegar says "the dragon has three heads", not Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised or Aegon, just the dragon. So the dragon being a direct Targ symbol, automatically excludes the Starks and Snow and all that. I mean, if Rhaegar had said "The Prince that was Promised must have three heads", then yes, I'd buy the theory.

But he said "dragon", so I think it means that House Targaryen as a whole must have 3 descendants or 3 dragon riders, or it means that Rhaegar read somewhere that the PtwP/AA must be a child of three ("Mother of Dragons, child of three"), so that's why Aegon needed a brother/sister to truly fulfill the prophecy, and that's why Rhaegar first thought he was AA but then he seemed to lose hope, because there was no sign of Rhaella having another baby, so Rhaegar took it upon himself to fulfill the damn thing. It also explains why he went with Lyanna, because Elia was too weak and people thought she was unlikely to have another child.

Well, it depends on how you see the heads. Rhaegar makes that statement when there already are 3 descendants of Aerys, apart from him - Viserys, Rhaenys and Aegon. So you have two possibilities:

1. The descendants have to be male - in which case Rhaenys doesn't count.

2. They have to be his direct descendants - in which case Viserys doesn't count.

Either that, or we have to judge the statement by the person who sees it, not the person who makes it. In other words, "there must be one more" pertains to the moment when Daenerys receives the vision, rather than the supposed moment Rhaegar made that statement. At that point, Viserys was already dead, so you have Daenerys, Jon and Aegon.

Oh yeah, and Jon is the obvious answer to three prophecies: The song of ice and fire, the prince that was promised, and Azor Ahai. These could also be his three heads.

Two of the prophecies may very well have nothing to do with House Targaryen.

Or two prophecies may refer to the same thing.

Or, the three prophecies refer to the three heads - Jon is obviously the Song of Ice and Fire, Dany is Azor Ahai and Aegon is The Prince.

Ok sure.

Are you serious or sarcastic?

I'm completely serious and there is no need to be condescending.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I'm completely serious and there is no need to be condescending.

I am not, I just don't think that it could be useful to discuss about something we completely disagree. As I have said before I believe that it's one dragon with 3 heads which means that one person 3 hypostases and for me that person is Jon. Also I don't believe that there is a possibility of FAegon being real. So if we disagree about everything how we can discuss something?

[Lord Thornhart]

There is no way Dany is Azor Ahai. They have absolutely nothing in common. In fact it feels like the only reason Meli got her own chapter for one time is for the later irony of I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Why do Jon/Dany/Griff fans think they are going to be best buds? Dany wants Starks dead as much as Lannisters and Baratheons, not to mention she is supposed to beware Jon or fAegon. And the realization that she wasn't the Targaryen heir all along will definitely snap her already bent sanity. Young G is simply a bad protagonist because if he is Aegon it would be bad writing to pull a long dead character back from the dead out of no where this late in the story. There is just no possible way the three of them form a 'super-mega-awesome' friendship together.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why do Jon/Dany/Griff fans think they are going to be best buds?

I don't think that there is someone who actually believe it.

[Ser Creighton]

I agree. Rhaegar says "the dragon has three heads", not Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised or Aegon, just the dragon. So the dragon being a direct Targ symbol, automatically excludes the Starks and Snow and all that. I mean, if Rhaegar had said "The Prince that was Promised must have three heads", then yes, I'd buy the theory.

But he said "dragon", so I think it means that House Targaryen as a whole must have 3 descendants or 3 dragon riders, or it means that Rhaegar read somewhere that the PtwP/AA must be a child of three ("Mother of Dragons, child of three"), so that's why Aegon needed a brother/sister to truly fulfill the prophecy, and that's why Rhaegar first thought he was AA but then he seemed to lose hope, because there was no sign of Rhaella having another baby, so Rhaegar took it upon himself to fulfill the damn thing. It also explains why he went with Lyanna, because Elia was too weak and people thought she was unlikely to have another child.

Stop using logic, this all about Jon everything else is a red herring. Jon is TPTWP, AA, LH, Lightbringer, King in the North, King of Westeros, the Dragons woken from stone, the title of the book is all about him despite what Martin says. This is not a Jon obsession, this is totally legit. The secret title of the series is actually Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, "Boom there goes the Jonomite." Jon is also the Three eyed crow, don't let Bloodraven fool you.

Also team Jonomite is in search of anything else Jon could be or that could be twisted with applied assumption, and unexplained leaps. The mother of dragons is currently in the works, after all we all know he woke the dragons, well the fake dragons, Jon is the only real dragon. Perhaps the dragons were confused and don't know mother from father? Yes that's it, I have never heard the Dragons call Dany mother, so she can't be their mother. Confirmed this is so good it's not even a theory it's fact. How about Jon is the Wall, Jon is also a FM, we are not with Jon all the time he could of trained at some point, we don't know but he probably did cause that would be so Jonomite. Cause he's TNT he's Jonomite.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Stop using logic, this all about Jon everything else is a red herring. Jon is TPTWP, AA, LH, Lightbringer, King in the North, King of Westeros, the Dragons woken from stone, the title of the book is all about him despite what Martin says. This is not a Jon obsession, this is totally legit. The secret title of the series is actually Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, "Boom there goes the Jonomite." Jon is also the Three eyed crow, don't let Bloodraven fool you.

Also team Jonomite is in search of anything else Jon could be or that could be twisted with applied assumption, and unexplained leaps. The mother of dragons is currently in the works, after all we all know he woke the dragons, well the fake dragons, Jon is the only real dragon. Perhaps the dragons were confused and don't know mother from father? Yes that's it, I have never heard the Dragons call Dany mother, so she can't be their mother. Confirmed this is so good it's not even a theory it's fact. How about Jon is the Wall, Jon is also a FM, we are not with Jon all the time he could of trained at some point, we don't know but he probably did cause that would be so Jonomite. Cause he's TNT he's Jonomite.

Ser Creighton, always making sense. I bow to you, Ser, I bow :bowdown:

[Roddy the Ruin]

IMO the three heads are all have prophetic titles

Daenerys is the Stallion Who Mounts the World and is a head of the dragon. I think this means she will unite Westeros to fight the Others.

Jon is the PTWP and is a head of the dragon. I think this means that while Dany unites Westeros she will die soon after, leaving Jon to rule.

Bran is the Last Hero Reborn or AAR and is one of the dragon heads. I think he will ultimately be the one who defeats the Others but Jon and Dany will get the credit for it.

[Wise Fool]

Uhh no, everyone thinks he is Ned's son. Turning down Stannis' offer doesn't change anything, especially because he was tempted to accept it.

The difference is he actually is.

"I'm a Snow, not a Stark." Being Ned's son does not make him a Stark; not in his eyes, and not in anyone else's. Turning down Stannis's offer to declare him Stark by royal decree is just one of the many bits of evidence toward this fact.

And while R+L=J is an interesting and plausible theory, it's not a fact, and I'm not going to simply assume it is in order to indulge a particular interpretation of prophecy. I mean that prophecy is used by RLJ supporters as evidence for Jon being a Targ; so using Jon being a Targ as evidence that Jon has three heads (lul) is basically circular reasoning.

[Lord Thornhart]

I forgot to mention Robb not only legitimatized him but also named him his heir. So he's a Stark too.

[Ser Creighton]

I am not, I just don't think that it could be useful to discuss about something we completely disagree. As I have said before I believe that it's one dragon with 3 heads which means that one person 3 hypostases and for me that person is Jon. Also I don't believe that there is a possibility of FAegon being real. So if we disagree about everything how we can discuss something?

A hypostasis only represents and shares one aspect of something. The Holy trinity being the best known example. The trinity is shared between three separate elements. 3 hypostases make up one Ousia. Jon is and always will be one. Nothing you can say or do will change that. What your saying is Jon is the Ousia or Triune Deity and the names you applied to him, not the author but you, are the 3 hypostases. Starks and Snow do not exactly scream Dragon head. You can literally find 3 aspects of any character in the book, it's not that hard. Jon has far more than three aspects, like most characters. Even at the watch, he was the recruit, the Steward and The Lord Commander, but he is not all three at once. Jon is not 3 people, never will be, and he has far more than 3 aspects.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I am not, I just don't think that it could be useful to discuss about something we completely disagree. As I have said before I believe that it's one dragon with 3 heads which means that one person 3 hypostases and for me that person is Jon. Also I don't believe that there is a possibility of FAegon being real. So if we disagree about everything how we can discuss something?

Yes, we disagree, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't mean that we can never agree. If we set emotional attachments aside and use logical arguments, in the end one of us will convince the other. Unless, of course, we're both fanatics - and I don't know about you, but I am most certainly not one.

For what is worth, I think that Aegon's parentage will ultimately be irrelevant. I agree that him showing up so late in the story means he won't be a big part of it - but I disagree on what that will be. I believe that he will succeed in taking the Iron Throne, but he will die shortly after that. I base that assumption on GRRM's statement that there will be several claimants of the throne before the end - and on the fact that Aegon seems in the best position to be the next one.

As far as Jon is concerned, I just don't think that his destiny is to be a King - I think he's meant to be much more than that. I think he is the confluence of the Royal lines of all major Westerosi ethnic groups and as such will play the role of the Ultimate Hero - the one who saves the world from the Others.

[Fire Eater]

Stop using logic, this all about Jon everything else is a red herring. Jon is TPTWP, AA, LH, Lightbringer, King in the North, King of Westeros, the Dragons woken from stone, the title of the book is all about him despite what Martin says. This is not a Jon obsession, this is totally legit. The secret title of the series is actually Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, "Boom there goes the Jonomite." Jon is also the Three eyed crow, don't let Bloodraven fool you.

Also team Jonomite is in search of anything else Jon could be or that could be twisted with applied assumption, and unexplained leaps. The mother of dragons is currently in the works, after all we all know he woke the dragons, well the fake dragons, Jon is the only real dragon. Perhaps the dragons were confused and don't know mother from father? Yes that's it, I have never heard the Dragons call Dany mother, so she can't be their mother. Confirmed this is so good it's not even a theory it's fact. How about Jon is the Wall, Jon is also a FM, we are not with Jon all the time he could of trained at some point, we don't know but he probably did cause that would be so Jonomite. Cause he's TNT he's Jonomite.

The impression you give from this post is that you are not intent on having a reasonable discourse or a mature conversation. You engage in misrepresentations of others' theories and positions and present your argument in a way that is somewhat obnoxious IMO, no offense. You are basically implying that posters' theories regarding Jon's destiny (three heads, AA, etc.) avoid logic when made.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

A hypostasis only represents and shares one aspect of something. The Holy trinity being the best known example. The trinity is shared between three separate elements. 3 hypostases make up one Ousia. Jon is and always will be one. Nothing you can say or do will change that. What your saying is Jon is the Ousia or Triune Deity and the names you applied to him, not the author but you, are the 3 hypostases. Starks and Snow do not exactly scream Dragon head. You can literally find 3 aspects of any character in the book, it's not that hard. Jon has far more than three aspects, like most characters. Even at the watch, he was the recruit, the Steward and The Lord Commander, but he is not all three at once. Jon is not 3 people, never will be, and he has far more than 3 aspects.

I disagree completely and utterly with what you said. If you had read the thread KotS and myself posted then you would maybe understood what I mean. But obviously you haven't.

Yes, we disagree, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't mean that we can never agree. If we set emotional attachments aside and use logical arguments, in the end one of us will convince the other. Unless, of course, we're both fanatics - and I don't know about you, but I am most certainly not one.

I think that this would be really good and I believe that If you read the thread that was posted earlier then you maybe understand what I mean.

[yushkevitch]

I'll put myself in the camp that there is not going to be 3 dragon riders. (I think I've said this before somewhere .. probably here :)) I don't know how he can make it work with the story as he's told so far. Two people have to join up with Dany and in what would have to be a very short timeframe unite and decide to take Westeros together.

The only possible way I can see it working is if the other two are Targs. Dany simply isn't going to let anyone ride off to Westeros with one of her babies under them. And I don't see anyone turning out to be a Targ and Dany responds with open arms "let's rule together!".

No, as I've also said many times Dany makes a much more powerful and intriguing villain. Her taking of Westeros should be done out of revenge (or spite), not as a saviour. So if she won't let anyone but a Targ ride with her and she's going to unleash hell on the poor folk in the west out of anger/betrayal, then there's really no logical choice having someone ride with her.

[Lyse Stark]

I'll put myself in the camp that there is not going to be 3 dragon riders. (I think I've said this before somewhere .. probably here :)) I don't know how he can make it work with the story as he's told so far. Two people have to join up with Dany and in what would have to be a very short timeframe unite and decide to take Westeros together.

The only possible way I can see it working is if the other two are Targs. Dany simply isn't going to let anyone ride off to Westeros with one of her babies under them. And I don't see anyone turning out to be a Targ and Dany responds with open arms "let's rule together!".

No, as I've also said many times Dany makes a much more powerful and intriguing villain. Her taking of Westeros should be done out of revenge (or spite), not as a saviour. So if she won't let anyone but a Targ ride with her and she's going to unleash hell on the poor folk in the west out of anger/betrayal, then there's really no logical choice having someone ride with her.

I agree. I think Dany have more potential to be a anti-hero and as a villain.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I forgot to mention Robb not only legitimatized him but also named him his heir. So he's a Stark too.

Only if the will is found and held valid. Until then, he's a Snow.

yushkevitch, GRRM confirmed that there will be three riders when he said that the third rider doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. What short time frame are you talking about? This could go on for years. There are two books left, and none of the books in this series have been what I'd call quick reads.