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World of Ice and Fire App Update

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It makes much more sense to assume that Dragonbinder was captured by the ancient Undying during their wars with Valyria centuries ago, then to assume that Euron just stumbled on the thing when he went to Valyria - which he probably didn't.



As to why the Undying/warlocks didn't use the thing when Dany was in Qarth. They were interested in Daenerys, not her dragons, it seems. Drogon accompanied Dany against Pyat Pree's wishes, and it's pretty clear - at least to me - that the Undying wanted suck out Dany's life force/special destiny. They did not want her dragons.



Thus it may very well be the case that Dragonbinder was turned into a weapon against dragons/the Valyrians by the ancient Undying, and Pyat Pree and his pals took it with them when they set out for Pentos to destroy Daenerys Targaryen. The interesting thing now is - does Euron know that or doesn't he...


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In addition, the dragons were only very small. And the general idea might have been "what harm can such small little dragons do?"



As it turns out, quite a lot, but they might not have expected it.



But that might be an interesting complication, suggesting that the horn might do more harm than good. Either that, or the warlocks had the horn with them to make the dragons obey them.


Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Well, technically the warlocks did not need to steal or control the dragons when they were in Qarth. They were there, and that was enough. Magic came back, and the Undying were obviously more interested in Dany than in her dragons. Quaithe indicated that the Undying/warlocks may not be fully aware of the connection between dragons and magic, when she said to her that she must leave Qarth now, before the Qartheen would refuse to let her go.



It would make sense to assume that the Qartheen were not as aware of the connection between dragons and (fire) magic than, say, the Alchemists and Archmaesters of Westeros, who were much closer to actual dragons during the first half of the Targaryen reign, and could thus actually study the impact the presence and eventual absence of the dragons had on their spells. Wisdom Hallyne knows about that, and Marwyn as well, it seems. But the Qartheen never had dragons of their own, it seems, and may not have realized that the decline of their magic had something to do with the death of the dragons of Valyria, and later on the death of the last Targaryen dragon.



If Dragonbinder does indeed only bind dragons to the will of its master, then this could easily be the thing the warlocks wanted to accomplish. After all, Pyat Pree would have realized that Dany's dragons were dangerous, and if they had grown much larger when he finally found Daenerys, it would be wise to have a tool to neutralize them.



As I've said in the Pyat Pree/Euron thread in TWoW board, it will be interesting to see if Euron has taken more than he can swallow when he captured the warlocks. Pyat Pree and the surviving warlocks may use Euron as much as he (believes) is using them. Euron clearly wants use both Dany and her dragons, whereas the warlocks priority should still be to destroy Daenerys.



But if Euron really fully controls the warlocks, he most certainly will become a huge player in the game, and indeed the biggest threat to Dany (and, most likely, Aegon and Stannis) as Moqorro has indicated in ADwD. The stronger magic and sorcery gets, the more powerful will become the players using it - i.e. Euron and, possibly, Cersei through Qyburn. Eventually magic (and not only dragons) should become a deciding factor in warfare. We have already seen this with Mel murdering Renly. Something like that may happen again, only on a much larger scale.



Another interesting tidbit from the App, giving a clue that the story about Daeron Falseborn is just that - a story:



Aegon the Unworthy apparently repeatedly joked that Daeron was not his son, but fathered on Naerys by Prince Aemon, and that he would name his bastard by Daena heir instead of Daeron. But he never did so, of course. This suggests to me two things:



1. Aegon the Unworthy was very sure that Naerys came into his bed as a maiden and was deflowered by him. A man who had his paramour and her lover killed in a very gruesome fashion because she cheated on him, would not allow his sister and brother to get away with that. Especially not, if his brother supposedly fathered his heir.



2. He did not like the man Daeron grew into, and did anything in his power to discredit and humiliate his bookish son, his sister-wife, and his brother. After all, Prince Aemon was supposedly the truest knight that ever lived, Naerys was very pious, and Prince Daeron friendly of Dorne, which Aegon apparently wanted to attack again. Aegon supposedly was the worst king Westeros ever had, and it would be entirely fitting if he knew how much trouble a king could cause for his successor - and all those ingrates who outlived him - if he deliberately lied to everyone.



In that scenario it's no surprise that he did legitimize all his bastards on his death bed. First he fueled rumors that Daeron may be a bastard, afterwards he made his own bastards legitimate.


Edited by Lord Varys

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Does the App give any hint about when Daena died? I have always found it odd that we never heard anything about her after Daemon's birth. Did she die during/shortly after it?


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We know that she did die young. That much was confirmed in the original description of the princesses in the tower.



I always took that as a hint that she didn't live to see her son rebel against Daeron. I once asked GRRM whether the fact that Daena was the eldest daughter of Aegon III and had thus, perhaps, a better claim to the Iron Throne than Viserys II and his descendants, played a role in Daemon's rebellion. But that was apparently not the case (or no major/important thing).


Edited by Lord Varys

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You mean that Daena _didn't_ live to see Daemon rebel, Lord Varys ;). Because she would have been close to fifty when it happened.

And yea, I remember that answer from GRRM to you. But we now know that Targaryens have skipped female claimants with superior claims before, as we didn't then.

I have just hoped that since the App provided extra information about Aegon the Unworthy doing everything he could to set Daemon up for a future rebellion, even more than previously suspected, that there may have been an additional something about Daena, too. Thanks, anyway.

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How the warlocks got the horn doesn't really matter a whole lot. I mean it's interesting but it has little impact on how it's currently being used. The point is Euron likely stole it and the plan to try to bind the dragons from them, a conclusion that was confusing to the person I was answering since the books don't make that conclusion directly. Nor do the books confirm that particular theory. It's a leap, and a very good one at that, but that's all it is. The app passes it off as fact.

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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It makes much more sense to assume that Dragonbinder was captured by the ancient Undying during their wars with Valyria centuries ago, then to assume that Euron just stumbled on the thing when he went to Valyria - which he probably didn't.

I can't argue with that, but doesn't it seem odd that this information was revealed to us by the app and not the books? I mean (I've read on here, don't have the app) it doesn't even confirm things like Brienne's yelled word or the Frey pies.

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It makes much more sense to assume that Dragonbinder was captured by the ancient Undying during their wars with Valyria centuries ago, then to assume that Euron just stumbled on the thing when he went to Valyria - which he probably didn't..

Yes, indeed. The Reader very transparently hinted that he knew that Euron hadn't gone to Valyria, so the warlocks seem to be a likely source of the horn.

.

As to why the Undying/warlocks didn't use the thing when Dany was in Qarth. They were interested in Daenerys, not her dragons, it seems. ...

Additionally, they may have forgotten what dragon-related artifacts they possessed during the centuries of their irrelevance. Even if they were searching from the moment when Dany entered Quarth, it may have taken some time to locate the horn among other forgotten rarities and paraphernalia they had stored, and to figure out how it worked.

And Dany left Quarth very soon after antagonizing the warlocks, so it would make sense that they just didn't have enough time to get their anti-dragon plans ready.

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The difference with Brienne's whispered word is there isn't anything in the text that really suggests what it is (we can guess but that's all we can do) whereas the warlock thing can be pieced together to some extent.

Avoiding fan theories in the app is a must. I guess what's confusing is why some things that are hinted at are treated as fact while others are not. Would that be accurate?

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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It was confirmed in her last chapter in AFFC. It ends with her saying a word. My point about that is we don't know what she actually said. GRRM carefully dodged the answer to that in her brief appearance in ADWD.

If the app mentioned a word that she spoke with her dying breaths (e.g., honor, oath, or Jaime), then it would be using info we don't have in the books yet and would be getting into fan theory territory. The warlock stuff and the Frey pies are things hinted at by the books but aren't directly stated. Both are conclusions we can reach as readers whereas the word Brienne says is less obvious.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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Yeah it was confirmed to be "Sword" in an SSM. Even without that though it's not hard to figure out when she shows up alive in the next book. I think that and the Frey pies theories are basically accepted as true by just about everybody. Unlike this warlock/horn thing which I'd never heard of until yesterday when someone mentioned it was in the app. I agree with you that the purpose of the app is not to confirm fan theories or provide new information, which is why I'm surprised it says he got the horn from the warlocks. I just wanna make sure it's not a mistake, there have been a few.


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Yeah, the word was confirmed during a Q&A session. A young girl asked George about it, apparently...



Thus I think one could include that one into the App.


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That confirmation feels like an even more of a spoiler than any of the other examples because GRRM intentionally avoided saying what the word was in the actual books. The Frey pies and the origin of the horn are at least backed up by the text (for the most part).

Edited by Caerl Targaryen

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Another tidbit which the App confirms, although it was not explicitly mentioned in the text, is that Lord Mathis Rowan is indeed the Lord in charge of the Siege of Storm's End after Mace Tyrell returned to KL. AFfC only told us that he left with Mace, but did never state that he remained there, and took charge of the siege forces. I and others assumed as much, but technically it would also have been possible that Mathis had left for Goldengrove or some place else in the Reach, since the text did not explicitly mention where he was.



I'm now more inclined than ever to believe that Mathis will be contacted by Connington, and they will make it appear as if the Golden Company was hired by Stannis, to trick Ser Gilbert Farring, Lord Meadows and his garrison into opening the gates. Whatever blood is spilled afterwards should mostly belong to Stannis' men.



I'd not be surprised at all if Mathis Rowan was one of the friends the Golden Company has in the Reach...


Edited by Lord Varys

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I'm now more inclined than ever to believe that Mathis will be contacted by Connington, and they will make it appear as if the Golden Company was hired by Stannis, to trick Ser Gilbert Farring, Lord Meadows and his garrison into opening the gates. Whatever blood is spilled afterwards should mostly belong to Stannis' men.

I'd not be surprised at all if Mathis Rowan was one of the friends the Golden Company has in the Reach...

Although I agree with your scenario, I don't think Rowan is a BF supporter. Imo he's a hardcore Targaryen loyalist, like the members of House Darry. He'll support Faegon because he thinks he's Rhaegars son. Tarly on the other hand strikes me as a Real BF supporter

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Just to clarify:



I did not want to give the impression that Rowan may be a Blackfyre loyalist. In my opinion, there are no Blackfyre loyalists in Westeros for a very long time, possibly since most/all of the men fighting for Daemon I grew old and died. We have already seen in TMK that among the conspirators meeting at Whitewalls were not only friends of Daemon I who fought in the first Rebellion, but also lords loathed Aerys I and Bloodraven for other reasons. In fact, my guess is that all of the later Blackfyre rebellions had pretty much nothing to do with Daemon I and his 'better claim', but with grievances various lords had with the then-ruling king (Aerys, Maekar, Egg), or with unpopular things these kings did or tried to do.



This was already foreshadowed in THK - Maekar told Dunk that all the Realm would blame them both for Baelor's death, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened when Maekar later ascended the Iron Throne.



As for the Golden Company: I'm also quite convinced that they also never really cared about 'the Blackfyre cause', at least not since Bittersteel died (and we don't know yet if any sons of Daemon's outlived Aegor Rivers - if that's the case, and if one of them led the Golden Company after his death, it may have been different). They are a sellsword company. They fight to make a living. ADwD tells us that they are exiles, and the sons of exiles, but not all of them were exiled by the Targaryens.



My guess is that 'their friends in the Reach' may refer to 'individual friends' the members of the Golden Company may still have in Westeros, rather than to the fact that there are still hidden Blackfyre loyalists in Westeros. It could have been a reference to Orton Merryweather, who may have fought for the Golden Company while he was in Essos with his grandfather and father (in fact, my guess is that Orton's father, who has never been mentioned until now, was the one who died while fighting for the Golden Company). The Golden Company is fighting for King Aegon VI Targaryen. That's the official story, and that's all they know. Varys and Illyrio want to play the Targaryen card, not the Blackfyre card. In fact, my guess is that only Myles Toyne may have known the truth about Aegon - if he is fake - and that may have been the reason why he's dead now. Varys and Illyrio don't like loose ends.



Trying to recruit hidden Blackfyre loyalists in Westeros to their cause would be very difficult, especially when their whole plan very much depends on the fact that Prince Doran Martell has to be convinced that the pretender they are fighting for is actually the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.



On Tarly: There is nothing indicating that he is connected to House Blackfyre. But I could see him having friends in the Golden Company/being friends with many of the other Targaryen loyalists in the Reach. There must have been a reason why the Tyrells remained in Aerys' camp (i.e. many staunch Targaryen loyalists among the more powerful lords in the Reach). But I really am not in the camp of the people who expect him to stab Mace in the back. I can see him turning his cloak when it starts to seem unlikely that King Tommen will prevail, especially if the Golden Company repeatedly defeats the armies attacking them. Westerosi lords should have no experience fighting war elephants, after all...


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Robert Baratheon's entry states he was "sent from an early age to be fostered by Lord Jonothor Arryn"; is this the first we've heard that "Jon" is a nickname for Lord Arryn (like Jonothor "Jon" Darry)?


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