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TyrionsFlagon

World of Ice and Fire App Update

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In that case, if this helps:





“What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead.”



So Oberyn speaks about the time he and Elia went to CR, when Doran and Mellario were only betrothed. Then he says that his mother died "years later".


With Arianne born in 276AC, Doran and Mellario got married one or two years after the visit to CR.



It doesn't sound like Doran was ruling Prince yet when he got married.


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Okay, then I'll go with 'Prinz Doran' in this instant, and considering that Arianne is not exactly all that young, we should assume that Doran and Mellario married shortly after they traveled to Dorne together.



Fodder for theories:



Ashara's body was apparently never found. That much is stated in Ser Arthur Dayne's entry.


Edited by Lord Varys

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Ardrian Celtigar's entry:

He 'is rumored to hide his wealth at Crab Isle'. I guess 'Claw Isle' is meant, since that the seat of House Celtigar.

In AFFC, Dick Crabb refers to the island as "Crab Isle" twice. Unless it is a mistake in editing, I assume it is a native of Crackclaw Point denigrating the intrusive Celtigars (their sigil is a crab). Regardless, Ardrian's entry should state Claw Isle instead of Crab Isle.

Edited by Nittanian

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Stuff to delete.


Edited by Lord Varys

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In case it hasn't been mentioned yet, part of Lothor Brune's entry links to "Cracksclaw Point" instead of "Crackclaw Point"


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Stuff to delete.


Edited by Lord Varys

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Stuff to delete.


Edited by Lord Varys

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Edited by Lord Varys

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The ultimate result of their ploy to get Robb to marry Jeyne is Robb's death at the Twins. The text is correct.

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Yeah, well, but Ser Rolph didn't know that, or did he? Lady Sybelle didn't know that one, either, so why the hell were they rewarded for 'their part'?



And no one - including Tywin, Sybelle, and Rolph - could have known back then when the Westerlings did their part in the grand plan that there would be a Red Wedding. That was long before the Blackwater - which could have changed/ended the game for the Lannisters -, and even afterwards would a political situation be imaginable in which the Red Wedding not happen despite the fact that Robb had married the Freys. For instance, if the Vale had declared for Robb.


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Edited by Lord Varys

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Doesn't matter what they knew or did not know. The played a part in Robb's death. I think you're being much too literal. They weren't going to get any reward to speak of if their plotting did not lead to Robb's eventual downfall, yeah?

Edited by Ran

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In essence, you are right, of course. But I guess Tywin would have had the audacity to tell Sybelle/Rolph that he had no clue about the Red Wedding, if he had lived long enough to talk with them in person. Especially since one of Sybelle's sons died at the Red Wedding. She was pissed about that, when she later talked to Jaime.


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And no one - including Tywin, Sybelle, and Rolph - could have known back then when the Westerlings did their part in the grand plan that there would be a Red Wedding. That was long before the Blackwater - which could have changed/ended the game for the Lannisters -, and even afterwards would a political situation be imaginable in which the Red Wedding not happen despite the fact that Robb had married the Freys. For instance, if the Vale had declared for Robb.

I'm not so sure for Tywin. See this quote, in aSoS Chapter 19, when word of Robb's marriage has reached King's Landing and Tyrion is told. Tywin just told him he is to marry Sansa, and for Sansa's claim for Winterfell to work, Robb must be get ridden of.

"I am surprised," Tyrion had to confess. "I thought Robb Stark had better sense."

"He is a boy of sixteen," said Lord Tywin. "At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor."

"He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?"

Ser Kevan answered. "He chose the girl's honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said, and then, "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon."

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Tywin knows about the Red Wedding, of course! My point was that Lady Sybelle Spicer Westerling and Ser Rolph Spicer - the one who got Castamere from King Tommen - were completely in the dark about the Red Wedding. Tywin did not tell them that it was going to happen, and thus one of Sybelle's sons was killed while defending Greywind (Ser Raynald Westerling, if I'm not mistaken).



The App claims that Rolph was rewarded for the role he played in the Red Wedding, when in fact he did not know anything about it. The 'Jeyne Westerling trap' was clearly a plot necessary to cause the Red Wedding, but the Spicers/Westerlings were only involved in that one, and the Red Wedding came afterwards when:



1. Stannis lost on the Blackwater.



2. Lord Walder contacted Lord Tywin (or answered his messages).



3. It became evident that Robb would have to try to regain the allegiance of the Freys. That would not have been the case if the Vale had declared for him, or if Lysa had allowed him to march through the Vale and take ships at Gulltown to return into the North.


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Just a quick question to anyone who actually has the thing:



Coldhands does not have an entry, or does he?


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Edited by Lord Varys

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Ran, perhaps you can shed some light on this?

I've been told that the app states Brandon Stark went to KL to demand a trial by combat against Rhaegar. However, the books state that, according to Jaime, Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die". That doesn't sound like a request for a trial by combat to me.

Does it actually count as asking for a trial by combat? Wasn't Brandon simply threatening to kill the Crown Prince?

Because the wording of the app has me confused, a little.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Bronn's entry states "Bronn then forces Falyse, the heir to Stokeworth, out of the castle and styles himself Lord Stokeworth. The Stokeworth matriarch, Lady Tanda - Lollys and Falyse's mother - dies shortly afterward from a suspicious riding accident, and Bronn is left in possession of the Stokeworth lands and title."



While it is true that Tanda dies after Bronn's duel with Balman Byrch, the wording in the app suggests that Tanda's accident occurs after the duel. To clarify, Tanda suffers the broken hip before Cersei convinces the Stokeworths to kill Bronn (AFFC 24), and she apparently dies from a chest chill (AFFC 36) after Falyse is sent to Qyburn (AFFC 32).


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