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Welcome to the 100th edition of Heresy; the lively thread which over the past two years and more has offered an alternative look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Essentially it is different in that we look beyond the simple assumption that this will be resolved by the identification of a hero variously known as Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, and that with the aid of the Children of the Forest and the dragons, this hero will rally all Westeros, ending the Game of Thrones and by uniting the factions, save the Seven Kingdoms from the Others.

Instead, as heretics, we think that things (and some characters) are not as they seem, and that it’s not going to be so straightforward. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come. Beyond that broad agreement there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning those easy assumptions and discussing possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

Nevertheless, there are some common themes. It would be fair to say that most discussion revolves around the Wall and what lies beyond, but its by no means confined to that. In the run-up to this centennial edition, Mace Cooterian kindly organised the Centennial Seven project, tasking seven of us with preparing an introductory essay on each of the seven most prominent heresies, which then served as the OP for a thread devoted to that particular topic. It proved to be spectacularly successful and immensely stimulating, taking us far deeper into the world of Ice and Fire than any of us expected. By popular request its an exercise we’ll shortly be repeating with a whole new set of heresies that didn’t make the first cut.

So here then are the introductory essays, slightly polished up here and there, for all seven heresies together with links to the relevant discussion threads. All seven can be revisited in die course but rather than unduly fragment this particular thread by doing so, I suggest that instead we look at the business of Ice and Fire and how all of them hang together in suggesting where the story might be heading.

Thank you, all of you, not just for participating in the project but in all the heresy threads which went before and those yet to come, especially as the new HBO season approaches. We don’t always see eye to eye and the word mince is not unknown to us, but to get so far as we have and so soon, we must be doing something right.

In the meantime also, here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy and will also house the archives created by the Centennial Seven project. Above all please don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

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The Wall by Capon Breath


The currency of this debate is evidence. One of the beauties of Heresy is that thoughts can expand and get big to really push boundaries, one of the challenges of consensus is that things must get small again to reach agreement. So theory & speculation are welcome additions to the mix but it’s evidence and the removal of reasonable doubt that will win the day and drive consensus.

In the 90+ Heresies its seems that essentially two lines of thinking exist about the purpose of the Wall. One is that the Wall is just that – a wall designed to keep someone or something out. The second is that it is some form of demarcation line or hinge, potentially between two realms.

The wall is a wall:

All Walls exist for one reason and one reason alone, to keep someone or something on one side. Now in so doing a wall occasionally fulfils a secondary objective such as keeping someone else on the other side or acting as a demarcation, but we can be sure that our beloved Wall, like all others exists to keep someone or something on one side.

The wall is a hinge:

“Great was the Lore that raised it and great the spells locked beneath the ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” Mels tells Jon in ADWD. ,

Can something as simple as the flow of traffic answer this question for us?

Some things we know as fact:

  • Men can pass through the Wall in both directions both through and over the Wall.
  • Giants can pass certainly from North to South.
  • Ser Waymar et al passed through the gate at Castle Black and encountered white walkers
  • Sam also went north via Castle Black and encountered both white walkers and wights and Coldhands
  • Sam subsequently came south through the Black Gate and encountered everyone he had previously left south of the Wall.
  • The Nights Watch shoot missiles from the top of the Wall and kill wildlings

Some things we are told in the books but can’t prove but seem very likely

  • The CotF can pass in both directions through the Wall - Leaf’s story about her Journeys

And then the speculation

  • White Walkers cannot pass from north to south. Can’t be proven but in the entire history of Westeros no walkers have ever been sighted in the south since the Wall came into existence.

If the Wall is a hinge between two worlds then how can it be possible for people to go from north to south and even back again through different gates and encounter supernatural creatures and normal people? How can missiles shot from one side of the Wall kill someone on the other if they are being fired into a different realm. Doesn’t work for me and interestingly Mel says Hinge of the world not worlds.

I’m not sure there is any substantial evidence to support the Hinge between worlds concept. There does appear to be evident supporting the notion of a defensive structure So assuming you agree that the purpose of the wall is to keep someone or something on one side that the most likely group are the White Walkers and the most likely side is in the North.


Based on the argument that the Wall is there to keep out the white walkers I guess if it does it’s pretty bad news. I am firmly in the camp that the WW are a deadly threat to humanity I think they are headed for the crypts of Winterfell – so named because it’s where the Starks originally defeated “something” from the lands of always winter that made them Kings of Winter. I think from a pure literary perspective it probably has to, why have white walkers in the prologue of the first book if they aren’t a major part of the story? Why have giant defensive wall to protect us from the baddies if it stays up the whole time?

More than once the Wall is referred to as “The end of the world” foreshadowing that it will come down with catastrophic consequences? The Watch is at its lowest ebb…and we know from Old Nan the Wall will only hold if the men of the night watch stay true. We have been told about Joramuns Horn that can bring down the Wall and we know of at least a couple of horns kicking around at the moment. Why introduce this if the wall is to stay up?

Does any of the above constitute evidence? I’m not convinced but there seem to be plenty of pointers that the Wall is at risk of falling and I’m struggling to provide evidence or even an opinion that it will stay up.


So over the Heresies different options have been discussed but I don’t recall the concrete establishing of any “schools of thought” on the topic. So let’s develop the consensus here…

Fact – it’s not possibly using Westerosi technology to build the wall without magic. Logical inference, magic built the Wall. We have seen various forms of magic in the series with notably both humans & COTF showing some magical prowess.

Humans – assuming she is human Mel is arguably the most powerful human magic user we meet in the series with Bloodraven and Bran right up there involved in the debate. But none of these powerful trio show anything like the capability on such a grand scale to erect the wall. Similarly the Warlocks in the House of the Undying show some magical capability but nothing on such a scale.

CotF – the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters is surely all the proof we need that this magical race not only posses the magic on a global scale to build the Wall but are the ONLY group we have seen during the series that are potential candidates. My own view on how they built it? They created a magical barrier that winter cannot pass, yes the wall is 300 miles of trapped winter flowing down from the Land of always Winter, this is why the Wall gets higher ever year. This is also why the white walkers cannot pass as they are the embodiment of winter.


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Timelines by Mace Cooterian

The direction I took on the timelines was to focus more on the sequencing of events rather than trying to pin them down with exact dates; especially the oldest known events occurring between 8,000 and 10,000 years ago). There are two guiding principles (cautions) that Heresy follows when it comes to Timelines. First, we have reliability issue of histories as outlined by Sam:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are Archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

The second guiding principle comes from Hoster Blackwood:

Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some masters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.

To begin the discussion we turn to canon text and the introduction to The Sworn Sword from the D&E series novellas, which paraphrasing:

"The children of the forest were the first known inhabitants of Westeros, during the Dawn of Days, who carved strange faces in the bone-white weirwood trees. Then came the First Men, who crossed a land ridge from the larger continent to the east with their bronze swords and horses and warred against the children for centuries before finally making peace with the older race and adopting their nameless, ancient gods. The Compact marked the beginning of the Age of Heroes, when the First Men and the children shared Westeros, and a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell.

Other invaders came in turn. The Andals crossed the narrow sea in ships, and with iron and fire they swept across the kingdoms of the First Men, and drove the children from their forests, putting many of the weirwoods to the ax. They brought their own faith, worshiping a god with seven aspects whose symbol was a seven-pointed star. The children of the forest dwindled and disappeared, while the First Men intermarried with their conquerors.

The Rhoynar arrived some thousands of years after the Andals, and came not as invaders but as refugees."

This introduction follows in line, albeit abridged, with the history lesson from Maester Luwin in AGOT. What are glaring omissions in both introductions is that there is no mention of The Others, The Wall or the Night's King. For these items you have to go to Old Nan:

"There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles........In that darkness, the Others came for the first time. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children..."

The generally accepted view on this period is that the long night came and with it come the White Walkers for the first time. The last hero seeks out the children; the White Walkers are defeated during the Battle of the Dawn and are sent back to wince they came; the Wall is built and the Nights Watch is formed to stand guard. Not long after the wall is built, the Nights King reign begins and he is ultimately defeated. Several thousand years later the Andals begin their assault on Westeros. All of these seemingly occurring between 10,000 and 6,000 years before Aegon.

All of this however, occurs many thousands of years ago and as Sam and Hoster Blackwood cautions us it should carefully examined and questioned. So how do we approach the subject of timelines? Perhaps the best way is to walk backwards and validate what we do know.

From toccs (H50: P54) and paraphrasing...

So what then can be reliably dated. Obviously the arrival of Aegon is not in question, there are detailed accurate histories covering those centuries. By the same token the arrival of the Rhoynar around 700 years ago only a few centuries before Aegon is well within the bounds of accurately recorded history, as by this time the Septons were firmly established in Westeros and chronicling current events not trying to translate ancient ones.

So this brings us to the Andal Invasion which the True History places somewhere between 6000 and 4000 years ago but as Sam mentioned there are Archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. This is further elaborated upon by Rodrik the Reader when speaking of the last kingsmoot as recorded in Hareg's History of the Ironborn which says of the last kingsmoot: House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came. When asked by Asha how long it has been since that kingsmoot the Reader replies: Four thousand years, if Hareg can be believed. Half that if you accept Maester Denestan's arguments in Questions.

So again we have Maesters placing the coming ov the Andals much more recently then the conventional histories. Where some light can be shed on this is in looking at the reasons for the Andals coming. GRRM has explained it as part of a migration chain in which the Rhoynar were being driven out by the Valyrians and so they in turn where driving out the Andals.

The thing about Essosi history is that it doesn't suffer from the same mistranslation and after-the-fact recording as Westerosi history does. The cultures in Essos such as the Ghiscari, Valyrians and Rhoynar have been lettered and in constant existence from these ancient events to the present day. We are told that the Valyrians and the Ghiscari fought a series of major wars around 5000 years ago, if the True Histories are to be believed this would place these Valyrian/Ghiscari wars at the same time as the Andals were invading Westeros. This would therefore have to mean that the Valyrians were fighting a major war with the Rhoynar simultaneously to their major war with the Ghiscari, which is unlikely. It is much more likely that only after subjugating the Ghiscari and spending some time consolidating their hold on the East, that the Valyrians would turn West and come in to confrontaion with the Rhoynar.

The Rhoynar would only have been pushing the Andals out because the war with Valyria was going badly for them and they were themselves being driven out. Taking the Maesters lead and placing the Andal Invasion somewhere between 2000 and 1000 years ago would thus place the Rhoynars’ eventual arrival 700 years ago not really that far apart from the Andals, which would be consistent with their war already going badly when the Andals left. This would thus place the arrival of the Rhoynar at the tail end of the Andal Invasion, which again is consistent with some of the historical facts. For example from what we can tell the Andals conquered the Southern Kingdoms whole as large kingdoms. However when the Rhoynar arrived in Dorne, it was a group of several petty kingdoms feuding with one another, not only that but there were still significant populations of First Men so it would seem that the Andals had not yet fully conquered Dorne. This is all consistent with the Rhoynar arrival not being that far separated from the Andals.

So by moving the Andal Invasion forward to somewhere between 2000 and 1000 years ago as the Maesters and other learned characters believe, we can develop a fairly consistent narrative which accounts for many of the discrepancies and separate events.

As to the pre-Andal Invasion history, the condensing of the more recent timeline virtually demands that all of this also be brought forward. As these histories are largely myth and legend the degree with which they can be condensed is probably much higher. There is a not an unreasonable theory that the Long Night may have been concurrent with the rise of Valyria around 5000 years ago and that it was a time much like the present day when magic was on the rise. Which can explain how the Valyrians could live in the area for generations before one day finding there were dragons in the mountains because much like the present day the rise in magic awoke the dragons while simultaneously allowing the Others to raise their armies of wights.

Thank you toccs! Now before we conclude this project let's take a moment a review two other Heretical Points of view.

Moat Cailin

From the text we know that Moat Cailin was built some 8,000 to 10,000 years ago by the First Men to establish a stronghold for the North and that it was supposedly the site of the infamous attempt by the CotF to shatter the neck to stop the advancing Andals. But Moat Cailin presents us with a strange anomaly as it makes no possible defensive deterrent until after the CotF brought down the failed hammer that resulted in it being stuck in the middle of a swamp. Was Moat Cailin already constructed before they called down the hammer (hence the naming of the tower) or was Moat Cailin built on the site after the CotF had performed their failed attempt?

If the North was busily engaged in fending off the Andal hordes, how come substantial numbers of said Andals were allowed to pass through the defenses of Moat Cailin and head north to take over the Wall? Its just another reason, together with the decay of those defenses, to suspect that somewhere along the line there was some kind of lasting peace agreed long before Aegon and his dragons conquered Westeros.

999 Lord Commanders

One last bit of text before we summarize the timeline and again we turn to Samwell Tarly. Sam doubts the number of the Lord Commanders and states in AFFC, Sam 1 talking to the Lord Commander Jon Snow:

“ we say that you are the nine-hundred and ninety-ninth Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy four commanders, which suggests that it was written during….”

And of course here we have another one of those untimely interruptions; the same interruption that prevents Old Nan and Maester Luwin from finishing their history lessons. If 999 Lord Commanders is correct and the oldest list that Sam has found contains 674 Lord Commanders, then it is safe to assume that this list was created some 325 Lord Commanders ago. If we use an average tenure of 7 years for each Lord Commander; then the list found by Sam was written approximately 2,000 years before Aegon's landing and the oldest name recorded would be placed somewhere around 4,700 to 5,000 years before said landing. This in effect brings forward the beginnings of the Nights Watch and quite possibly the Nights King mystery.


Perhaps the only thing that Heresy can agree on it is that the Timelines are dodgy and are quite possibly a deliberate device to obscure what is really going on. One of the keys to unlocking the Timelines mysteries is not what dates certain events occurred (Andals turning up 4,000 versus 2,000 years ago; or The Wall being built 10,000 versus 8,000 years ago); but rather, how they are all connected.

If the Heretical theory of a shortened timeline holds up, we can put the Andal invasion at 1,500 to 2,000 years ago and then bring forward the business of the Nights King to 5,000 to 6,000 years ago. It has been noted (Melisandre) that the Azor Ahai prophecy is 5,000 years ago and coincides with the rise of the Valyrian Empire; but this is still 3,000 years after the supposed date of the Long Night. However if we foreshorten the rest of ancient Westerosi history in line with what we've been told of the arrival of the Andals it then becomes at least possible that the Long Night, the rise of the Valyrians and the Azor Ahai prophecy may all coincide.


  • Black Crow. H6: P330 / H29: P219, 285, 309, 335, 346
  • Feather Crystal. H29: P329
  • Toccs: H29: P310 / H30: P65
  • Tyryan: H29: P303, 318, 319 / H30: P51


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Winterfell by Black Crow

Winterfell is a slightly different topic and I think it would be fair to say that there are a number of “mysteries” impacting on the story in all sorts of ways. So I’d like to begin with a description of the place as seen in a couple of paragraphs by Catelyn and Bran right at the beginning of AGoT:

First we have Catelyn, entering the godswood in search of Ned:

It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it.

So, we’ll come back to the forest later, but right away we thus have a legendary date for the castle’s founding all of 10,000 years ago and this immediately presents us with a big problem, because if Bran the Builder did indeed raise the castle he did so all of 2,000 years before he supposedly raised the Wall if we accept both Catelyn’s date and the traditional belief that the Wall was built after the Long Night 8,000 years ago. We’ve touched on this earlier in the Centennial Seven project of course, so lets leave that aside for the moment and look at the castle itself as seen by our Bran:

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn’t even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth…

It’s quite a vivid picture and Maester Luwin’s observation is clearly intended as an allusion to a weirwood tree. He may well be right in this and there may be some significance to the comparison, but at the same time it also provides a misleading impression of the real Winterfell. Lets come back to Bran again, just a little further on:

The builders had not even levelled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew that you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out of ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you.

What we also know from Theon’s brief defence of the castle and subsequent escape is that not only is it surrounded by a double stone wall, but there’s a deep moat between the two. In mediaeval terms this might at first seem unusual, but in fact it tells us rather a lot.

What’s immediately striking is the vastness of the area contained within the walls. Not only are there three acres of godswood, which was probably once larger still but there is also sufficient room for a whole host of towers, halls, courtyards, workshops, granaries and other domestic buildings around the original drum tower known as the First Keep and yet all comfortably accommodated with the massive double walls. Once upon a time those walls or their predecessors must have enclosed a huge empty area and far from the castle physically growing larger we’re actually seeing the built part of it slowly expanding to fill that already defined space within the walls – and ditches.

Fortunately there’s a splendid and very relevant parallel here in the 2,000 year old Celtic hill forts such as the famous Maiden Castle in Dorset. Typically these occupy the entire hilltop, extending to 100 acres at Maiden Castle enclosed by very substantial double or even triple banks and ditches. Yet most of the site was left unoccupied with the inhabited areas (including animal pens) being confined to relatively small areas by the gates. While we’re not actually quoted a site area for Winterfell it easily falls within these parameters. It seems obvious therefore that Bran the Builder’s Winterfell was an archetypal Celtic hill fort rather than a classic mediaeval motte and bailey – and that is entirely consistent with the familiar First Men/Celts parallels which we’ve discussed so often before. Indeed we also have a very pertinent example in-house so to speak with the ring-work on the Fist of the First Men.

The Fist in fact provides us with a pretty good idea of the original Winterfell, not the High Mediaeval castle which we see now but a ring-work very like the Fist. Clearly therefore the stone walls and other structures which our Bran climbs and clambers over were not erected by Bran the Builder himself. In this respect its also noticeable that the oldest part of the castle …the First Keep… a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked…is known as the First Keep not as Bran’s Keep or Bran’s Tower as one might expect if he was responsible for it. Therefore while there’s no reason to doubt that Bran the Builder created Winterfell by surrounding the site with a ring-work comprising a massive double earthen ditch and rampart, which now underpins the present stone walls, that perimeter may be his only surviving legacy.

So why did he surround this particular site with those ditches and banks in the first place?

I think that the short answer has to be that rather than pitching upon it as a good site for a castle, he was deliberately enclosing something significant which is even now impacting on the story.

Most obviously there are two very striking features; first that unusually large godswood centring on the weirwood and the pools, some hot, some cold. And secondly the crypts, or perhaps more accurately the caves below Winterfell which have been re-shaped into crypts; caves which are accessed by a deep spiral stair, a “stair to Hell” paraphrasing Old Nan, just like the entrance to the Black Gate up on the Wall.

That immediately raised an important question. We’ve discussed how the Black Gate is said to be as old as the Wall and how the Night Fort appears to have been built around it. Are we looking at the same thing here? Were the crypts created or opened up after Winterfell was built or were they the reason why Bran the Builder threw his double rampart and ditch around the sidhe halls within the hill?

If so that might be consistent with Redriver’s own heresy that the current Winter is not sweeping down from the North, but is originating in Winterfell:


In the meantime the crypts themselves present a whole raft of mysteries. As described they are deep underground, and accessed by that spiral staircase to Hell. There appears to be a vaulted roof over a central spine corridor lined by sepulchres. The impression given is that there is a statue fronting on to the corridor with a tomb behind. Wives and children of the deceased may also be in there although that’s not entirely true.

As Bran is carried along the corridor he is required to identify the kings buried there and to all appearances the early ones are closest to the stair and we gradually work forward in time as we pass along until we reach the as yet empty ones. There’s no indication that it runs in a circle although I’d be surprised if it didn’t since the Celts didn’t really do straight lines. At the moment though we don’t know and there’s no hint of any significance to the layout of this particular crypt.

What’s also odd are the references to lower levels, said to be where the older kings are buried. This seems very strange. Its possible that if the upper level filled up it might be necessary to extend it or to dig deeper, but starting off at the lower level doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The only other thing we’re told is that its dangerous because its partially collapsed, but somehow that doesn’t ring true either and sounds more like a reason for forbidding exploring. There is something old down there and it may not necessarily be the Kings of Winter. Perhaps those stairs to Hell, like those of the Nightfort, lead to a magic door; one that can only be opened by a son of Winterfell speaking the words “Winter is Coming”


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The White Walker/Others by Grey Words

First I must specify that the following is primarily about white walkers/Others and not wights. For the purpose of brevity here I refer to the subjects as the agreed upon white walkers/Others and invite you to also review the Citadel Concordance for background on these beings: Concordance

The seldom seen white walkers/Others are a controversial topic and of utmost importance to the outcome of this story, yet we know very little about them. The purpose of this essay is to present some primary Heresy theories, but first I want to clarify details discussed in Heresy 84 regarding their names. Generally, “White walker” appears to be a term used by the free folk north of the Wall and “Others” the term used south of the Wall. GRRM himself refers to these beings as the Others and that is the title of the Concordance regarding them. In the text however, there seem to be instances in which either term is used to refer to the white walkers/Others and wights collectively and there are some readers who prefer this designation, but it is not the usage in this essay.

First, a concept hinted at by GRRM is that there exists a connection between the white walkers/Others and the CotF in that, “...The Others are not dead. They are a strange, beautiful...think, ok... the Sidhe made of ice, something like that... a different sort of life... inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” and also that, “The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.” Some here see the sidhe comparison as a basis for the white walkers/Others existing as a separate magical ice-race, an Old Race like the CotF and giants, but that originated in the Land of Always Winter. As an Old Race, the white walkers/Others might be the “cold gods” referred to by Gilly, with the CotF being the “old gods” Leaf describes to Bran.

In opposition to this concept is the theory that the white walkers/Others are ice-being creations of the CotF by means of some dark or elemental magic. In this theory it is believed that the CotF are creating and animating the white walkers/Others as ice golems using the spirits or essence of sacrifices such as Craster's sons.

A dissenting opinion amongst some Heretics is that the Cold itself is a being and that the white walkers/Others are sentient manifestations of that Cold being.

Some on both sides of the white walkers/Others origin debate believe that the wights are created by the white walkers/Others who control and direct them, essentially using them to do their dirty work as a martial force. Though that the white walkers/Others are not the ultimate evil bad guys in the story is an opinion shared by many. This rests upon the notion that the white walkers/Others along with the CotF have an agenda of their own that is not understood at this point in the story.

In relation to the white walkers/Others and the wights, it's been proposed that it is the cold and darkness accompanying white walkers/Others that animates the dead, possibly unintentionally. Some believe the white walkers/Others are actually trying to divert the wights from attacking humans since there was no massive wight attack on the Wall after the fight at the Fist. An additional idea is that whatever they are the wights have become too abundant and the white walkers/Others are attempting to manage that problem.

As a separate race, there are diverging theories as to whether the white walkers/Others have their own purposeful agenda or are in an alliance/pact with the CotF. There is thought on both sides that there may also be a forgotten connection to the Starks that is yet to be revealed. Some believe that the connection is that the white walkers/Others are descendants of the Stark who was the Night's King, or are descendants from the union with Night's King and his white walkers/Others queen.

On the story's surface it appears that the re-emergence of the white walkers/Others and the dragons are connected events. Magic is on the rise in the world though it is also also being dismissed, ignored and actively suppressed. Heretics believe there is an overall imbalance in Westeros and the natural world – a world that includes the existence of magic in the form of elemental magic the Old Races. That magic has been abused and misused by the CotF is a strong suspect for the cause of the imbalance in the seasons and may be a cause for a reemergence of the sidhe-like white walkers/Others into the world. It has been also suggested that there is a connection between the white walkers/Others activity and the political unrest in the rest of the world as well. This widespread imbalance in the realm of magic is possibly fueled by the violence and discord amongst mankind. That imbalance may also be magnified by old pacts and vows being trampled upon and disregarded – those being pacts and vows made between the worlds of Old Race magic and the violent and aggressive race of men.


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The Magic by Tyryan Lannister with additional material by Wolfmaid7

For the most part, this entire OP is a combination of my own ramblings on the subject of Magic: Ice and Fire and a PM thread between wolfmaid7 and myself.

Despite the best efforts of (some of) the Archmaesters, Magic is an integral part of Westeros. Whether it be Ice, Fire, Water, Earth, or Blood (or whatever else you can make the case for), Magic exists all over. As this is the Song of Ice and Fire, our focus will be on those two aspects of Magic within Westeros, but the others (particularly Blood) will be brought in as needed to reinforce and/or contradict what is put forth here.


If you were to go back and reread all of Heresy, you would find that the impetus for us delving deep into the Magicks of Westeros was a discussion on the Reeds Oath, which contains the following:

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you. I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. “We swear it by ice and fire.” ACOK Bran III

Points of import:

“I swear it by earth and water” – stated by Jojen, the greendreamer

“I swear it by bronze and iron” – stated by Meera, the huntress

“We swear it by ice and fire.” – stated by both

So, we have a triple dichotomy of Earth and Water, Bronze and Iron, and Ice and Fire.

In discussing what these dichotomies could mean, a certain drunken imp posited the following:

Earth and Water = Natural Magic

Bronze and Iron = Mankind

Ice and Fire = Worked Magic

This gives us a situation with the following: Mankind, in the form of the First Men, comes to Westeros/Valyria/Asshai/what have you. In this various “magical” places, these groups of Men encounter Natural Magic. Some of them embrace the naturalness of the magic and become one with the land. Others, being Men, seek to control the magic and use it to their own purposes. Thus comes Worked Magic.

Some quick definitions*:

Natural Magic – the innate ability to connect with energies of nature; magic which is intuitive to the user; also called “low magic”

Worked Magic – the manipulation and bending of energy to attain a desire result; bending magic to ones will; also called “high magic”; requires payment and/or rituals to attain

Chaos Magic – the implementation of change and progression; perverting Natural Magic through the use of Worked Magic so as to attain a goal.

*the above definitions provided to me by wolfmaid7, interpreted in my own words—that is to say, she might clarify/contradict some of the above

When you look at the various times a human has utilized Magic within ASOIAF, you find that, with the exception of after Bran ate of the paste, all of the greenseeing, warging, and skinchaninging Magic exhibited by the Starks and others of First Men blood are of an intuitive nature that require no payment, no real thought to occur. Yes, in order to happen on a substantive, lasting level, payment of self seems to be required, and training is needing. But the ability to utilize the Magic is natural to all who possess the abilities.

Contrast that to the Red Lot. Every time we see Mel, Thoros, or Moqorro perform an aspect of Magic that is beyond a simple parlor trick, rites and/or sacrifices were used. Same thing with MMD and what I at least believe was a Blood Magic ritual. These are all examples of Worked Magic.

So, why would the Reeds, who seem to be in tune with the Natural Magic side of the equation, BOTH swear by Ice and Fire? Because it was likely Man that caused Ice and Fire Magicks to become heavily manifest within the world due to Man’s innate need to control.


Another way to look at the magic of ASOIAF is through the seasons. First, we will harken back to Ancient Greek thought, wherein it was held, and most notably promulgated by Aristotle, that there were five main forces in the World: Fire, Water, Air, Earth, and Æther. This appears to be relatively the same within Martin’s world, with two adjustments. Instead of Æther, it is Blood, and in place of Air is one of its children, Storms, in the form of Ice. Having established that, we will now move back to the Seasons.

The relationship between the elements and the seasons are as follows:

Summer = Fire = Life

Autumn = Earth = Decay

Winter = Ice = Death

Water = Spring = Rejuvenation and Rebirth

As you’ll notice, there is a third column. This is the most important column of the three, for it is what establishes the Cycle, or, if you prefer, The Circle of Life. This Cycle is one of Life, Decay, Death, and Rebirth, ever going, ever renewing, constantly under attack by the forces of Ice and Fire. For a reason not yet revealed, the White Walkers, who appear to be the embodiment of the Ice-Death part of the equation, are actively seeking dominance of their Element over others.* For a reason that seems to be very apparent (“life” everlasting), the Priests of R’hllor and others who appear to be the embodiment of the Fire-Life part of the equation are actively seeking their own dominance. And it is for this reason that BOTH the forces of Ice and Fire need to be stopped. If either side wins, the Balance becomes disrupted, and the Natural order falls about, leading to Ragnorok.

*For me, I would say that they are actively pursuing a course of Death-to-All because that’s just what they do---it is, for lack of a better term, their nature. They are not evil, they are not immoral, they just are. Is Death morally evil? No, it simply exists, and it is an integral part of the Cycle, for without Death, there is no Rebirth, and without Rebirth, Life loses its Fire. I see the White Walkers as Death incarnate—and, as such, while they might seem Evil to those who view the concept of Death as “evil”, they are not; they simply are.


From a PM between myself and wolfmaid7; all of the quote is her words, mine being whatever is in a set of brackets:

“As far as the nature of Westeros goes, beings such as the COTF, WWs, even Dragons are Elementals. Elementals are Nature Spirits who rule over aspects of Nature. Elementals create Balance. Air Elementals are spirits the govern communication and inspiration and are represented by such things as birds, butterflies and the wind. [Hence the ravens as the communicators of Westeros?] Water Elementals govern adaptability [unCat, who is from a “house of water” and was found by Beric et al beside a river… and I would say she has adapted quite nicely to her new lot in life]. Fire Elementals govern the divine spark in all and is heavily intertwined with spirituality and passion. [sEE: R’hllor, Faith of; especially the version of it as espoused by Mel] Lastly, Earth Elementals work with humans and are the guardians of sacred sites and ancient groves and temples. [the Children seem to fit this pretty damn well].

“So what does this mean with regards to ASOIAF? It means that all these Elementals serve Nature and have a purpose integral to how the land is supposed to run. Not Evil or Good, just a tool to protect the Balance; you can run afoul of them and incur some backlash, but they aren’t [actively] out to kill Mankind.”

Once more, I would like to point out the importance of Balance.

Summerhall: “We know that Summerhall occurred in 259; we also know that Rhaegar was born on this exact same day. It is safe to assume, given his description in book and what Martin has stated about Craster in various interviews, that Craster is roughly 55 at the time of Game of Thrones etc. Summerhall's date puts it at 40 years ago; forty years ago puts Craster at around 15 years old at the time of Summerhall, and 15 seems to be the age at which the Westerosi women start having families, and, from what we know of human nature and how the wildlings operate, 13-15 years old is likely when wildling men start thinking about and actually go and steal their wife, meaning first child is 14-16.

If we take Craster's age as around 55 at time of novels, it puts him at around 15 at time of Summerhall, meaning that right around Summerhall was probably when he had his first child; if Craster has always sacrificed his boys from the beginning, then him starting his sacrifices occurred at almost the exact time as the incident at Summerhall (also provided it didn't take Craster a significant number of years to have a son instead of a daughter).”


The main question(s) I have for the forum are thus:

Thoughts on Balance? How close are we to Balance? Is Balance needed/lacking? Are Ice and Fire in opposition or different sides of the same coin?

How to you see religion and the Elemental properties of Planetosi Magic interacting with which other?

Any thoughts on anything else not included in the above?

My personal opinion: at its core, this series is about Balance and the need to maintain it. If either Ice or Fire were to win, Balance would be upset and the end result would be catastrophic. The politics of the series fall into this question of Balance as well. Martin has come out in many interviews as anti-war---period. Martin has also stated in these interviews that he includes the wars and the aftereffects to show his reasons for being against war: the common man gets screwed, and the socio-political Balance is disrupted, further screwing over the common man (my paraphrasing). As such, the end game of not only the Ice and Fire aspects but of the Game of Thrones itself is also Balance, and until such a Balance is maintained, Chaos shall reign. Who will be the one to bring the Balance? I have an idea as to whom.

I feel that Varys’ end game is to reach Balance, whereas Littlefinger is doing everything in his power to keep Balance away—to quote TV show Varys “[Littlefinger] would burn us all if it meant he could be king of the ashes”. How Varys will ultimately play into the following, I’m not quite sure, but here’s my fought on the Balance in the Game:

Balance will be maintained through Sansa—and Tyrion. Sansa, who ironically learned the finer arts of statecraft from the one trying to undermine Balance, will in the same stroke learn of the necessity for Balance; Tyrion, because he is, as Moqorro put it, “snarling in the middle of it all”, and he is already Balanced—hated equally by all, having been to the various places of import, a black and a green eye, and technically still married to Sansa, and through this union shall come the reunion of North and South, and thus Balance will be maintained. And it’s possible that Varys, through his “friendship” with Tyrion, will finally achieve his goals of Balance.


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The Nights King by Redriver

Despite occupying very little actual text space in the novels,this little bed time story recounted by Bran Stark as told to him originally by Old Nan,certainly occupies a lot of space on these boards,and in particular the Heresy threads.

What is it about the story of the Night's King that so fascinates us?Is it that one of the "goody" Starks has gone rogue?Or maybe it's the suggestion that there can be union between humans and the Others?As we investigate this dark tale the seat of the Night's King,the Nightfort,comes under scrutiny as does his possible burial place,the Crypts of Winterfell.

Here is the tale in full as Bran tells it.Later we'll break it down and examine some of its more Heretical implications.By way of background Bran and his escorts,Jojen and Meera Reed,Hodor and Bran's direwolf,Summer have reached the ancient fortress known as the Nightfort on the southern side of the Wall.As they ponder Jojen's greendream insistence that there is a gate through the Wall here,dark tales of Brave Dany Flint,the 79 sentinels and the Rat Cook have already been exchanged and Bran recalls the tale...

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories,the tale of the Night's King.He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch,she said;a warrior who knew no fear."And that was the fault in him,"she would add,"for all men must know fear."A woman was his downfall;a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall,with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.Fearing nothing,he chased her and caught her and loved her,though her skin was as cold as ice,and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king,and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.For thirteen years they had ruled,Night's King and his corpse queen,till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the Wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage.After his fall,when it had been sacrificing to the Others,all records of the Night's King had been,destroyed,his very name forbidden.

"Some said he was a Bolton,"Old Nan would always end."Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber,Flint or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot,from them who ruled Bear Island before the Ironmen came. He never was.He was a Stark of Winterfell,and who can say?Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he fell asleep in this very bed in this very room."

No,Bran thought,but he walked in this castle,where we'll sleep tonight.He did not like that notion very much at all.Night's King was only a man by day but the night was his to rule.

Any bolded parts are my emphasis.

So that's the story. What do we make of it? To me the woman appears to be an Other. Though the term "corpse bride" muddies the waters a bit,I doubt she was a Wight. Giving her his seed implies a sexual act,though it could be interpreted as giving his sons away, Craster style.

To make it simple, my take on this is that the Night's King was trying to find out what the Others were about but ended up being removed from his task by his brother and Joramun. I bolded that part because I find it interesting that a Wildling King fought to save the integrity of the Night's Watch. He also ended up buried and strongly warded in the Winterfell Crypts-here is where the tradition of warding dead Starks originated.

I also strongly suspect Jon Snow is destined to follow in this guy's footsteps,and maybe finish the job.This I think is what he's so scared of in his crypt dreams...

Other Heretical notions are that Coldhands is the Night's King and that the whole NK story is more recent than we think, probably due to King Sherrit calling down his curse on the first Andals.


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The Children of the Forest.

by Redriver with additional material by Black Crow

It was a woman’s voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe’s beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer – large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat’s eyes. No one has eyes like that. Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colours, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it…

“The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants, called us who dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.

Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.”

“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

Next Bran chapter: Bloodraven

“Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they live long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.”

And then Jojen (why does he know?)

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies,” said Jojen. “The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhead.

Leaf again to finish:

“Where are the rest of you?” Bran asked Leaf once.

“Gone into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was the dawn of our days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us”

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

The Children of the Forest.

Black Crow is covering the text part of this intro, I'm looking at this race on a more thematic level. We'll have learned that this was the indigenous race to Westeros prior to the arrival of the First Men, that they worshiped nature and existed in harmony with it.

The arrival of the FM was an assault on them which threatened them with extinction, as well as the Weirwoods. They could not compete with bronze swords or horses, so they took drastic action and raised the waters to break the Arm of Dorne. You might argue that this exercise was a failure given that men built boats and sailed across, but you could also make the case that it was successful in a temporizing way-it provided time for FM acceptance of the old gods, and protection for the trees.

Luwin's half finished story of the CotF probably leaves us with more questions than answers.We know that they headed north.The hammer of the waters looks like another failure,but it gave rise to a culture and geography -in the Crannogmen and the swamp- that made it impossible for the Andals to ever conquer it, but we still don't know why the CoTF headed beyond the Wall.

Questions that arise-

  • We now know from SSM that the CotF have some connection with the Others, but what is that connection?Did they create them and if they did so was it by accident or design?
  • Are the CotF as resigned to their fate as Leaf indicates? Might they have a hidden agenda?
  • Are Bran and Bloodraven safe where they are? Is the ward keeping entities out or people in?
  • Can a young man like Bran, despite his obvious super-powers, deal with what needs to be done. He is a boy after all.
  • There seems to be a hint that the CoFF and the Crannogmen may have exchanged DNA at some point. Is this possible?


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Crows appear in a number of guises throughout the story and figure in it so prominently that serious consideration needs to be given as to their true role and indeed whether they too are players in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Catelyn went to the Sept and lit a candle to the Father above, for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death

In terms of large black birds with big beaks, they are of course ubiquitous both as crows and as the ravens used in Martin’s world for communication, who are also of the genus corvidae, ie; members of the crow family.

We’ll begin with the ravens, who we first encounter as oversized homing pigeons carrying what sometimes appears to be an improbably large file of correspondence from castle to castle – pigeons would probably never got off the ground with the size of some of the messages.

However, in the World Book extract there’s a hint of something more:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens, and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed in “degraded” form, down to the masters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens, but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are among the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few masters devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one was able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

Nothing of course is as it seems in Martin’s World and the stout denials in Trouserless Bob’s book have rather the opposite effect in suggesting that the business of literally being able to talk is in fact true.

We see this of course in the Lord Commander’s raven, perched first on Mormont’s shoulder and then Jon’s – which tempts the thought that once it may have perched on Qorgyle’s shoulder.

The conventional explanation is that the raven in question is being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven. This is certainly possible but I’m wary of that being so given that Bloodraven’s normal modus operandi is, or appears to be, to come in dreams as the three-eyed crow. This is a subject in itself, but before delving into it there’s also the question of the Singers and the Crows.

There was as we know a big intervention by a large number of crows when Sam and Gilly were rescued from Small Paul and his cold dead mates at the village which wasn’t called Whitetree. The show is more than a bit ambiguous here in that anyone who hasn’t read the books could easily come away with the impression that the crows led Ser Puddles to the village and then pursued Sam and Gilly afterwards. Otherwise the conventional explanation is that they are being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven.

Again I’m very wary of this. Warging one crow is credible enough, a whole flock of them is something else entirely and dangerously close to the godlike intervention Martin has reassured us won’t happen. On the other hand there is a possible parallel with the wights, who appear to be susceptible to a degree of basic control at the “follow me” or “go there and kill” sort of level.

That may be what is happening here, but once again there seems to be a close association with the Singers. Crows, unlike bats, do not live in caves, yet there are a large number of them in the Cave of Skulls (not a canonical name I know, but everybody instantly recognises it) hence the earlier suggestion, which I wholeheartedly endorse, that Crows may be to Singers what Direwolves are to Starks; that it is a warging relationship not common skinchanging; and that to paraphrase "Part of the Singer is the Crow, and part of the Crow is the Singer.".

Such a symbiotic relationship may also explain, at least in part, the mystery of the Three-eyed-Crow; why what we assume to be Bloodraven appears in Bran’s dreams as a Crow in the first place, rather than say a kindly old man, and then of course Bloodraven’s curious vagueness when directly questioned on this by Bran.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A… crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you…except in dreams.”

Its odd because although he has been watching Bran and coming to him in dreams – supposedly long before he fell – he effectively denies at the outset that he is the Crow; “Once, aye” is the opposite of yes. He was “Black of garb and black of blood” he was a crow of the Nights watch, not a three-eyed crow.

Nevertheless, if we admit a “personal” relationship between the Singers and the Crows and remember that Bloodraven is actually a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, it is easy to see that he himself is linked to the Singers through his Blackwood blood and the Crows on the Raventree weirwood – in exactly the same way that the Starks of Winterfell are linked to direwolves. Thus, perhaps, his vagueness as to whether he is the Three-eyed-Crow does not necessarily imply that he may not be the Crow, but rather that he is unaware or uncaring that this is how he manifests himself in communicating.

In discussing Crows as players it would be remiss not to mention the Morrigan, which first came into our discussions when I noticed the possible connection between a crow with three eyes and a crow goddess with three aspects. (maiden, mother and crone) That in turn led to recognition of the House Morrigen cookie: Storm Lords whose seat is the Crow’s Nest and whose sigil is a crow in flight against a storm green sky. In terms of subtlety that’s about nuanced as a train crash, given that Damphair distrusts ravens because they belong to the Storm God and the Crow Goddess is also associated with storms and in particular with the wind, hence bean sidhe, or banshee.

On balance, tempting though it is in so many ways to look for evidence of an actual Morrigan, ultimately this is GRRM’s story and I think that the Morrigan reference is significant not as indicating the presence of such a deity but rather in emphasising the real importance of the Crows, as players, just as important if not more so than the direwolves and capable of serving as the interpreters who understand the speech both of Singers and of Men.

In closing, a final point concerns the white ravens who announce Winter and seemingly don’t get on with their black cousins. This I think may hark back to the business of Bran naming his direwolf Summer; that achieving a balance between Ice and Fire requires both a King of Winter and a Summer King with their respective direwolves and ravens.


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I was looking for some cool emotions for this but no luck...

:cheers: :cheers: to everyone for their contributions,i can't believe we made it to 100.

To our fearless leader,thank you for the vision that brought all us misfits,ruffians of the mind together. Here's to 100 more :bowdown:

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Thank you to everyone for the essays, discussion and compiling, it's an impressive result. I read the first two, really nice job. Am looking forward to reading the rest tomorrow. Congratulations on 100! BC, we need an emoticon with a party hat for you. This will have to do. :pimp:

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After such an awesome introduction it is hard to begin a post. I want to start with the white walkers. We do not know where or how they began, but I believe they embody the spirits of men. The physical description of white walkers resemble men more than any other race. Not like Singers or Giants or any animal, but like men. Craster gives away his sons to the 'gods', and that seems alikely connection to the white walkers. I would like to go deeper into this. I believe the inhabitants of the white walkers come from the conciousness of men. Greenseers and/or skinchangers were put inside bodies of ice. Men abused the powers they were taught by the Singers and used these powers to their own ends. Finally corrupting the very souls of men they became Ice made flesh. In 'A Game Of Thrones' we are treated to Brans vision of the other dreamers impaled on icy spikes. I believe the ones that fell to their deaths instead of flying were used to create the white walkers. With some type of life returned to men as the WWs, they need more to survive.

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Happy 100!!!:D

The more I read about what you guys have dug up about CotF the more sinister they seem to me. Warm and fuzzy forest sprites my ass. They don't live in trees. The trees seem more like coffins. They live under the trees in caves like trolls!

Don't trust em sez I .:angry:

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