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HERESY 100


Black Crow

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We have evidence from the books that says that virtually all ravens have been skinchanged by Children of the Forest at one point or another, that's why Bran finds them when he takes one for himself.

Bran went in to one raven while in the Children of the Forest's cave and found the a CotF was living second life within it, that is a far cry from "all ravens have been skinchanged by Children of the Forest at one point". Bran also found Varamyr Sixskins living his second life within One Eye, does that then mean that all wolves have been skinchanged by humans at one point?

At Raventree? Probably not, though that is Bloodraven's home, so perhaps he likes to keep an "eye" on it, and since the weirwood is dead, he'd have to use the eyes of Ravens or other animals. But congregating at one place is quite a bit different than an organized attack on the wights from thousands of crows at once.

I'm wary of any "Bloodraven is skinchaning any animal we see" theory. But again continuing with the example of Nymeria, the organized super pack of wolves roaming the Riverlands is not something done by a skinchanger controlling her, but rather is something organized by Nymeria herself.

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Actually, the ravens with Coldhands seem to be part of Bloodraven's flock and we know those ravens all have Singers in them (BR said so). There's also the tendency that so far all animals are freaked out by wights, except the skinchanged ones. That said, it doesn't mean they're being controlled all the time, there's probably plenty of room for them to act on their own.


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Actually, the ravens with Coldhands seem to be part of Bloodraven's flock and we know those ravens all have Singers in them (BR said so).

Yes, but Bloodraven doesn't ever say that he is controlling all of them or even any one of them at any time.

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Welcome to the 100th edition of Heresy; the lively thread which over the past two years and more has offered an alternative look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

...as heretics, we think that things (and some characters) are not as they seem... Beyond that broad agreement there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning those easy assumptions and discussing possible outcomes... in fact, the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

...[R]ather than unduly fragment this particular thread... I suggest that we look at the business of Ice and Fire.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

:commie: :commie: :commie:

Bravo, Black Crow and fellow Heretics! Congratulations on 100 threads! Huzzah!

I'm just happy to have stumbled onto this community a few months back, and grateful to have participated in the last quarter of them.

Onward and upward!

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Long live the Heresy! :commie:



I love reading the differing insights and viewpoints in these threads. The depth of understanding amongst the faithful here is staggering.



Sometimes, I say things in public around GoT "fans" and get weird looks that I imagine, under different circumstances in different times, would probably lead to pitchforks and fires.


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With the balance of Ice and Fire, and it's comparison to Varys and LF and the GoT, it's interesting as Varys wants the Realm at peace under the rule of Aegon, but in order to do that he needs to create chaos, chaos between the Lannister and the Tyrells and for Aegon to then come in and save Westeros. This could be like the seasons where there'll be a period of imbalance, that's happening, only for the balance to come afterwards.

And I think with two Starks at the Wall, and beyond the Wall it may come sooner rather than later, but then there's still the matter of there being no Stark in Winterfell.

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After such an awesome introduction it is hard to begin a post. I want to start with the white walkers. We do not know where or how they began, but I believe they embody the spirits of men. The physical description of white walkers resemble men more than any other race. Not like Singers or Giants or any animal, but like men. Craster gives away his sons to the 'gods', and that seems alikely connection to the white walkers. I would like to go deeper into this. I believe the inhabitants of the white walkers come from the conciousness of men. Greenseers and/or skinchangers were put inside bodies of ice. Men abused the powers they were taught by the Singers and used these powers to their own ends. Finally corrupting the very souls of men they became Ice made flesh. In 'A Game Of Thrones' we are treated to Brans vision of the other dreamers impaled on icy spikes. I believe the ones that fell to their deaths instead of flying were used to create the white walkers. With some type of life returned to men as the WWs, they need more to survive.

Up to a point, yes, my own view is as I've mentioned that I think the white walkers are golems, "demons of snow and ice and cold" held together with dark magic and animated by Craster's sons and other skinchangers - such a condition being necessary to transfer their spirits from their living bodies to those ofsnow and ice.

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Happy 100!!! :D

The more I read about what you guys have dug up about CotF the more sinister they seem to me. Warm and fuzzy forest sprites my ass. They don't live in trees. The trees seem more like coffins. They live under the trees in caves like trolls!

Don't trust em sez I . :angry:

Yeah, its an odd one. There's a sort of odd belief outside of heresy that the Singers are the good guys who stood shoulder to shoulder with Men in the Long Night and that Bran has been brought to the cave to learn how to defeat the Others again.

Really...?

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Yes, but Bloodraven doesn't ever say that he is controlling all of them or even any one of them at any time.

Well, it could be the Singers are acting in concord with Bloodraven.

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I'm wary of any "Bloodraven is skinchaning any animal we see" theory. But again continuing with the example of Nymeria, the organized super pack of wolves roaming the Riverlands is not something done by a skinchanger controlling her, but rather is something organized by Nymeria herself.

Yes and thrice yes. Bloodraven is a very clever man and possessed of powers, but he's not almighty God. Give him that level of power and he would be up there with all those other deities GRRM has promised won't be making personal interventions.

I'm not sure to what extent the presence of Singers inside some crows is significant. Bran was just detecting a "shadow". I think you are quite right citing Nymeria. The crows are not being skinchanged but are working with the Singers.

Hence there's good reason to look at the crows as one of our next series of specials.

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:cheers: :cheers: Congratulations Black Crow on achieving your Centennial and here's to 100 more! :commie: :commie: :commie:



:bowdown: A big HUZZAH to everyone who comes here with an open, creative mind that's willing to tread into the realms of original (sometimes crackpot) theory.


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After such an awesome introduction it is hard to begin a post. I want to start with the white walkers. We do not know where or how they began, but I believe they embody the spirits of men. The physical description of white walkers resemble men more than any other race. Not like Singers or Giants or any animal, but like men. Craster gives away his sons to the 'gods', and that seems alikely connection to the white walkers. I would like to go deeper into this. I believe the inhabitants of the white walkers come from the conciousness of men. Greenseers and/or skinchangers were put inside bodies of ice. Men abused the powers they were taught by the Singers and used these powers to their own ends. Finally corrupting the very souls of men they became Ice made flesh. In 'A Game Of Thrones' we are treated to Brans vision of the other dreamers impaled on icy spikes. I believe the ones that fell to their deaths instead of flying were used to create the white walkers. With some type of life returned to men as the WWs, they need more to survive.

There is plenty of merit to your ideas regarding the source of the ww/Others and I especially like the notion of them coming from an abuse of magic and the minds of "others". I have a theory in which they come from the subconscious of the CotF, an Id Theory, though I still hesitate to hang my hat on or cling religiously to any one idea until we know more about the bastards. Where GRRM has teased that they are like sidhe made of ice, I also think there's a strong possibility that they're a separate race from the realms of magic.

edit: spelling

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Bran went in to one raven while in the Children of the Forest's cave and found the a CotF was living second life within it, that is a far cry from "all ravens have been skinchanged by Children of the Forest at one point". Bran also found Varamyr Sixskins living his second life within One Eye, does that then mean that all wolves have been skinchanged by humans at one point?

Really?

He chose one bird, and then another, without success, but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes, tilted its head, and gave a quork, and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy. The song of the river suddenly grew louder, the torches burned a little brighter than before, and the air was full of strange smells. When he tried to speak it came out in a scream, and his first flight ended when he crashed into a wall and ended back inside his own broken body. The raven was unhurt. It flew to him and landed on his arm, and Bran stroked its feathers and slipped inside of it again. Before long he was flying around the cavern, weaving through the long stone teeth that hung down from the ceiling, even flapping out over the abyss and swooping down into its cold black depths. Then he realized he was not alone. "Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said.

"Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

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I'm wary of any "Bloodraven is skinchaning any animal we see" theory. But again continuing with the example of Nymeria, the organized super pack of wolves roaming the Riverlands is not something done by a skinchanger controlling her, but rather is something organized by Nymeria herself.

I'm afraid you're attributing someone else's theory to me. I don't think that at all. But I do think that a greenseer potentially has the power to "skinchange" more that one creature in unison. Or perhaps someway to influence those who once did inhabit them, that part is certainly unclear.

But I think expecting hundreds to thousands of crows to "naturally" attack wights in unison without any intervention from anyone is asking a bit too much suspension of disbelief.

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Thanks BC. To be more specific the quote is, ",,,Sidhe made of ice, something like that...a different sort of life" - the underline mine, and my reason for the choice of the "like" word.

Of course if you believe the CotF ARE the Sidhe, then Sidhe made of Ice is kind of an interesting analogy.

And why do the Others faces seem to look an awful lot like the faces carved by children onto trees?

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I'm afraid you're attributing someone else's theory to me. I don't think that at all. But I do think that a greenseer potentially has the power to "skinchange" more that one creature in unison. Or perhaps someway to influence those who once did inhabit them, that part is certainly unclear.

But I think expecting hundreds to thousands of crows to "naturally" attack wights in unison without any intervention from anyone is asking a bit too much suspension of disbelief.

Hence the theory which Toccs and I actually espouse that the crows are allies of the Singers

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Yes, but Bloodraven doesn't ever say that he is controlling all of them or even any one of them at any time.

No, but he's teaching Bran how to control at least one, so let's please not pretend that Bloodraven controlling a raven (or perhaps more than one) is out of the question.

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