HERESY 100

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Hence the theory which Toccs and I actually espouse that the crows are allies of the Singers

So why is Bloodraven teaching Bran to skinchange them if they're just allies? And why have "all" of the birds been skinchanged if they're just allies?

[wolfmaid7]

I think it was Snowy and i that went a little into depth about how the "different kind of life" might work in this scenario and GRRM could have drawn from any and each potential story line could fascinating to say the least.But i will add that backdrop to something Tyrion in the magik section just touched on and it may or may not be of interest to those who subscribe to the COTF created the WWs.

Just for a parallel and no mechanics involved( frankly no one knows that kind of stuff) Chaos Magik which is also called "ice magic" mainly because it uses the cold properties of Water to work "high magik".It is also very popular to those who follow "the left hand path" or the path of the Dark Mother. And it kind of did remind me of some of the discussion on the COTF creating the WWs. If you want to do something big and not care about the consequences this is you route.If you have a sense of good and evil and are restrained by that ideology,you don't use this because its raw emotion...The soul.

[Black Crow]

Of course if you believe the CotF ARE the Sidhe, then Sidhe made of Ice is kind of an interesting analogy.

And why do the Others faces seem to look an awful lot like the faces carved by children onto trees?

Technically they don't, GRRM actually describes them as beautiful, hence his Sidhe reference. The fact that they are portrayed in the show as looking like weirwoods is held to be a quick and dirty way of pointing to a link between the Singers and the walkers.

[Black Crow]

So why is Bloodraven teaching Bran to skinchange them if they're just allies? And why have "all" of the birds been skinchanged if they're just allies?

In exactly the same way that the Starks and the direwolves are allies.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

In exactly the same way that the Starks and the direwolves are allies.

So they skinchange them and then they're allies? I'm not sure I see a difference.

[King of Winters]

Technically they don't, GRRM actually describes them as beautiful, hence his Sidhe reference. The fact that they are portrayed in the show as looking like weirwoods is held to be a quick and dirty way of pointing to a link between the Singers and the walkers.

As the COTF see through the Weirwoods and the faces on them are similar to WW I think that this points to them working together.

Maybe the COTF are the eyes and the WW are fists, so to speak.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

As the COTF see through the Weirwoods and the faces on them are similar to WW I think that this points to them working together.

Maybe the COTF are the eyes and the WW are fists, so to speak.

Or maybe the faces are supposed to be the Old Gods, and the Old Gods take the faces from their trees when they create their own body of ice.

[Black Crow]

So they skinchange them and then they're allies? I'm not sure I see a difference.

Oh, but there is. Read the bit where the Reeds explain to Bran that part of him is in Summer and that part of Summer is in him.

This is why Jon has these berserk rages where he is unaware of what he's doing. The Church would have us believe that this is evidence that he's really a Targaryen with "blood of the dragon"* when in fact it appears that Ghost is warging him.

* I'm not at all convinced by this blood of the dragon business, or rather I'm comfortable with the notion of it being a euphimism for the bond between Targaryens and their dragons, but doubt that this accounts for the late and unlamented Viserys beating up on his sister. As she eventually observed, he was no dragon, just a nasty piece of work.

[wolfmaid7]

No, but he's teaching Bran how to control at least one, so let's please not pretend that Bloodraven controlling a raven (or perhaps more than one) is out of the question.

Control is not the word i would use. If we go back to V6 and his experience with Orell's eagle his description is that he could feel the other skinchanger rage against his presence. Like wise Bran when taking Hodor experienced resistance from Hodor to the point that Hodor started hiding way down.

I don't have the text at hand but in that same text where Bran is asked by BR to choose a Raven he said he felt the presence of a woman. As BR puts it a horse that has had many riders will easily accept another....The operative word is "accept".

I however do think,there is a violation of some kind going on this text bothers me a lot

On this night he dreamed of the weirwood.It was looking at him with its deep red eyes ,calling to him with its twisted wooded mouth,and from its pale branches the three eyed crow came flapping,pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords ACOK,Bran p,255

He had also told M.Luuwin that the trees can talk,that they ask him to come with them and that it's scary

This is not the first or second time Bran has dreamed the Weirwood calling him,and BR we know is connected to a Weirwood and in one of his lessons to Bran actually made reference to the trees "calling him BR". I say that to highlight that it seems likely than when BR talked to Bran about appearing in his dreams and calling him he was in fact the Weirwood.

Which begs the question,who is the 3eyed crow,and why does he seemingly endeavor to go between communication between Bran and the trees.

What is reoccurring is the ideology that once an animal is ridden it could be easily ridden again.For me this is a problem in the sense that their body can be taken over by anyone who can do it,and they may or may not be friendly to the previous or current.If you get my drift.

Cracpot hostile take over of the Crows lol.....

But seriously,i there's some weird crap going on.In the book we have the Crows attacking the Wights ferociously. On the show just before Puddles makes his entrance they ae just sitting in the tree and do absolutely nothing to help Sam....Soooo what's up with that?

If anything most can agree that the Old Races are working together.

[Grey Words]

Of course if you believe the CotF ARE the Sidhe, then Sidhe made of Ice is kind of an interesting analogy.

And why do the Others faces seem to look an awful lot like the faces carved by children onto trees?

I agree that is an interesting analogy, though am reserving any judgement until we know more about the show's choice of portrayal of the tree faces. My own thinking is that tree bark characteristics can change with growth, environmental changes and exposure to elements, so we can't be certain of knowing what the faces originally looked like when carved. Of course when the personality of a CotF greenseer is thrown in on top of all that...? So many mysteries....

[Black Crow]

Or maybe the faces are supposed to be the Old Gods, and the Old Gods take the faces from their trees when they create their own body of ice.

In the books there's no connection, as I said it seems to just be a quick and dirty way of connecting them for the non-reading viewers of the show.

What's less than clear about the weirwood faces in the book is why there should be so much diversity in that grove north of Castle Black; benevolent yes, stern yes, both suitable expressions for objects of worship - but screaming?

[Essan]

Technically they don't, GRRM actually describes them as beautiful, hence his Sidhe reference. The fact that they are portrayed in the show as looking like weirwoods is held to be a quick and dirty way of pointing to a link between the Singers and the walkers.

Or, rather, a link between the wierwoods and the walkers - I don't think the Singers have been referrenced as yet?

Oh and happy hundred the Heresy :cheers:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In exactly the same way that the Starks and the direwolves are allies.

So they skinchange them and then they're allies? I'm not sure I see a difference.

So here's an interesting spin. If the ravens are to the Singers as the direwolves are to the Starks... Allies, not in the sense of simply being "skinchanged" (i.e., possessed) animals, but in the sense of being partners and parts of the same self - then to the extent we're inclined to view them as players in their own right, would it make sense to imagine the ravens on a quest for vengeance on behalf of the departed Singers?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oh, but there is. Read the bit where the Reeds explain to Bran that part of him is in Summer and that part of Summer is in him.

This is why Jon has these berserk rages where he is unaware of what he's doing. The Church would have us believe that this is evidence that he's really a Targaryen with "blood of the dragon"* when in fact it appears that Ghost is warging him.

* I'm not at all convinced by this blood of the dragon business, or rather I'm comfortable with the notion of it being a euphimism for the bond between Targaryens and their dragons, but doubt that this accounts for the late and unlamented Viserys beating up on his sister. As she eventually observed, he was no dragon, just a nasty piece of work.

So here's an interesting spin. If the ravens are to the Singers as the direwolves are to the Starks... Allies, not in the sense of simply being "skinchanged" (i.e., possessed) animals, but in the sense of being partners and parts of the same self - then to the extent we're inclined to view them as players in their own right, would it make sense to imagine the ravens on a quest for vengeance on behalf of the departed Singers?

For the relevant text quotations identifying the "same self" relationship of Starks and direwolves, see the first part of this post.

[Dagda]

Yes and thrice yes. Bloodraven is a very clever man and possessed of powers, but he's not almighty God. Give him that level of power and he would be up there with all those other deities GRRM has promised won't be making personal interventions.

I'm not sure to what extent the presence of Singers inside some crows is significant. Bran was just detecting a "shadow". I think you are quite right citing Nymeria. The crows are not being skinchanged but are working with the Singers.

Hence there's good reason to look at the crows as one of our next series of specials.

Interesting that Bran didn't detect a warg inside of CH's elk either, yet from the animal's actions it was being controlled also.

[TheButcherCrow]

Really?

I put this quote up a couple of threads ago, it's pretty clear to me that from the context Bran & BR are talking about just the birds in the cave with them.

[Dagda]

So why is Bloodraven teaching Bran to skinchange them if they're just allies? And why have "all" of the birds been skinchanged if they're just allies?

I think we need differing terms to describe human warging and what the Singers do .... The Singers change into the Ravens seem to be part of their life cycle, whereas humans seem to impose themselves on what they warg.

[Black Crow]

Interesting that Bran didn't detect a warg inside of CH's elk either, yet from the animal's actions it was being controlled also.

I'd say that was because if it was being "controlled" by anybody it was Coldhands

[Black Crow]

I think we need differing terms to describe human warging and what the Singers do .... The Singers change into the Ravens seem to be part of their life cycle, whereas humans seem to impose themselves on what they warg.

Ah well this is why I think that there is a difference between skinchanging and warging. It is disputed by some on this board but I believe that warging is as described to Bran with part of the beast in the warg and part of the warg in the beast; a partnership in other words, while skinchanging implies a taking over and controlling often against the beast's will.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Interesting that Bran didn't detect a warg inside of CH's elk either, yet from the animal's actions it was being controlled also.

Yes, but the "warg" comparison is key - because it implies that the animal need not be "controlled" (i.e., skin-changed), in order to partner up with the human (or in this case... the non-human) agent. The direwolves stick with the Stark children long before any of them figure out how to "slip" their skins. And even after the Stark child figures that out, the wolf accompanies and defends him regardless. The partnership or "alliance" does not presuppose constant skin-changing.