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HERESY 100


Black Crow

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Here is something to chew on:



In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.



I've inserted this line to draw your attention to "iron". If the Long Night happened before the Andals came, there should be no mention of iron. It should have happened way back in the bronze age of the First Men. In many ways, the history of Westeros follows the Ages of Man:



In his poem, Works and Days, the ancient Greek poet Hesiod (750-650 BC) defined five successive Ages of Man:



Golden - the “Garden of Eden” days when mankind did not have to work to feed themselves for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to very old age while retaining a youthful appearance, eventually dying peacefully with spirits living on as guardians. This would likely be the equivalent of Westeros prior to the arrival of First Men.



Silver - the people of this age lived for one hundred years as children, remaining at their mother’s side without growing up, and then suddenly aging, with adulthood lasting a very short time before dying. Mankind was less noble than the Golden Age, so humanity could not keep from fighting with one another, nor would they properly honor or serve the immortals. Their actions so infuriated Zeus that he destroyed these people in the Ogygian Deluge. It was also during this time that Zeus reduced Spring and reconstructed the year into four seasons so that men would have to seek the shelter of houses and had to labor for their food. After death, humans of this age became “blessed spirits” of the underworld. It appears that GRRM has combined features of the Silver and Bronze Ages as being the time when the First Men arrive in Westeros as evidenced by the strange seasons.



Bronze - men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough as war was their purpose and passion. Zeus created these humans out of the ash tree. Their armor was forged of bronze as were their homes and tools. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits. Instead, they dwell in the dank house of Hades. (Winterfell, anyone?)



Heroic (Age of Heroes) this is the one Age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only Age that improves upon the Age it follows. These humans were created from the bones of the earth (stones) through the actions of Deucalion and Pyrrha. In this period men lived with noble demigods and heroes. It was the heroes of the Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium.


Elysium is a conception of the afterlife that developed over time and was maintained by certain Greek religious and philosophical sects and cults. Initially separate from realm of Hades, admission was reserved for mortals related to the gods and other heroes. Later it expanded to include those chosen by the gods, the righteous, and the heroic, where they would remain after death to live a blessed and happy life, and indulging in whatever employment they had enjoyed in life. Elysium would be the Children’s equivalent version of joining the godhead.



Iron - during this Age humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother, and the social contract between guest and host is forgotten. During this Age “might makes right”, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this Age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing. Babies will be born with gray hair, and the the gods will have completely forsaken humanity. There will be no help against evil.


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Well, I would say this passage should clarify that there were only two races prior to the First Men: Children and giants. No mention of Others, so we should feel confident in our assertion that they are a different sort of life....a created life.

Have either of you ventured into the Sansa threads?

I have .... Shivers... The Sansa Ned what's the difference one.

I told them what I thought it was and got nuked.

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The following information should be added to The Magic of Ice and Fire, as I believe there is significance to the iron used by the magic hating Andals:



For many hundreds of years, iron has been believed to be a substance that repels most of if not all of the supernatural entities in many parts of the world. Human blood has a very distinct smell which can oft times be instantly identified as iron, but back when people did not know that blood contained elements of iron, they associated the smell of iron with blood. Once it was discovered that you could obtain iron not only from meteorites, but deep within the earth, certain cultures regarded iron as the life-force of the earth. It was regarded as a magical substance because it could withstand both the elements of fire and a deep freeze of the cold, and because it was still harder than most if not all metals at the time.



Cold iron is a poetic and archaic term for iron. In modern usage the term has been most associated with folkloric beliefs that iron forged over a cold anvil could ward off ghosts, fairies, witches, and/or other allegedly malevolent supernatural creatures. This belief continued into later superstitions in a number of forms such as nailing an iron horseshoe to a door to repel evil spirits and later, to bring good luck. Burying an iron knife under the entrance to one’s home was alleged to keep witches from entering. The Catholics chose to make their crucifixes out of iron, both pre and post Crusade-era, and countries like Germany and Russia also adopted the “iron cross”. Surrounding a cemetery with an iron fence was thought to contain the souls of the dead. It is to prevent the energy of the dead from getting out, and to prevent the energy of parasitic, negative energies from entering.




Old prisons used iron, even in modern days to “confine” negative energy. In prisons, it was believed that a man could be just as wicked as a negative entity (spirit), and in order to contain both the physical man, and the entity in the event of a sudden death, they needed material that would affect both worlds, so they chose iron. Prisons used iron bars to restrict the man, but it’s ‘magical’ properties would also keep the entity confined as well. Most people do not think that the iron spans the entire premises of a prison, they figure that it is limited to the bars, which in turn would be negated when the cells are opened and thus allow the spirit to exit the premises. However, in most prisons, the concrete or even stone blocks are laced with iron rebar reinforcements inside them for this exact same reason.



Another theory concerning the placing of horseshoes above doorways is to ward off Faeries; the theory being that supernatural beings are repelled by iron and as horseshoes were an easily available source of iron, they could be nailed above a door to prevent any unwanted, otherworldly guests. In Scotland, Ireland, and Europe, iron is used specifically to keep malicious faeries from doing harm near you or your loved ones. This is because the “popular” belief is that iron is the “life of the earth” and is sacred, but when man had wrought it, twisted it, and mutated it to form shapes and objects, they tainted its natural reverence and turned it into something disgusting and putrid to the ancient faeries. It is no longer in its purest form, and that is what repels them.



Very much like a “cold spot“, if a spirit, good or bad, relied on energy to make him or herself strong enough to affect the physical world, how would you deal with that spirit? It’s simple: You would rob him/her of its energy. Take away the electricity that they are using, and they have nothing to draw power from. This process is called “grounding”. Many of you have heard the term “grounding the wires“, or “only use grounded wires”. The way to ground electricity is to have that electricity run through a conductor that is literally embedded into the ground. Most houses, even modern ones will have a “ground spike” located outside, around the perimeter, usually near the electricity meter, made of iron. If someone were to use a grounded object, and simply “touch” an entity with it, once the grounded object passed through the entity, it would literally suck out and absorb all of the energy that the spirit was using to strengthen itself with.



Ancient Greeks and Romans actually refused to put any iron, especially iron rods into the ground at or near cemeteries, because they feared that it would “scare away” the souls/spirits of the departed. And, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Aztecs believed that iron came from heaven, though many believe this is because they most likely obtained their first bits of iron from meteorites, which contain large quantities of iron, among other minerals.



One thing to take into consideration is spirits are energy and energy cannot be destroyed, only converted. If there were a poltergeist or a demon haunting a house, and someone were to smack it with a grounded object such as iron, they may win the battle, but not the war. The entity may take this as an offense or as a threat, so assuming that they do exist, you could honestly become the target of their existence, and you would have to carry around a grounded object on your person at all times.


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I'm wary of any "Bloodraven is skinchaning any animal we see" theory. But again continuing with the example of Nymeria, the organized super pack of wolves roaming the Riverlands is not something done by a skinchanger controlling her, but rather is something organized by Nymeria herself.

So here's an interesting spin. If the ravens are to the Singers as the direwolves are to the Starks... Allies, not in the sense of simply being "skinchanged" (i.e., possessed) animals, but in the sense of being partners and parts of the same self - then to the extent we're inclined to view them as players in their own right, would it make sense to imagine the ravens on a quest for vengeance on behalf of the departed Singers?

The Nymeria idea is one I hadn't considered. How very. . . humanist of me. I always assumed that Nymeria is primarily driven by Arya's desires. However, seen this way, it sort of seems like Nymeria could be an independent driving factor in Arya maintaining her identity.

I should clarify, in the sense that he skinchanges wolves,yes he is a Warg.In the sense that he is a Warg like the Stark kids no.

The quote below says it right,V6 essentially married his wolves,he took them and formed a bond with them.So they recognized him as part of their pack. However,when he skinchanged them he had presence of self to know that he was V6.He identified himself and he identified his wolves.It is not the same with the Stark kids. They are saying "THEY ARE THEIR WOLVES" there is no separateness of saying Ghost is Ghost and Jon is Jon.He is not saying Ghost is part of him,he is saying Ghost is him.

The above again points to that fact that V6 initiated his bonds,held his animals in thrall.BC's quotes about how the Stark kids refer to themselves in comparison to their wolves is very telling and is the difference between them and V6.He is not his wolves,and they are not him they just share.( not the above quotes i'll go find them)

The wolves like the Dragons have sung their songs and collected their proxies.They are the Stark kids.

Hence Arya calling her latest identity (the true one) the Night Wolf.

I'm over there right now getting sworn at. :)

So, if I may ask someone who has gone among the natives. . .

Hahaha I will be laughing my ass off at your genre-blindness when the ToJ Kingsguard argument proves accurate.

what, in your expert opinion, is "genre-blindness"?

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The basic problem with that thread is that it is not about the simple and rather obvious R+L=J theory but that it is obsessed with it and nearly everything in the text interpreted as clues confirming it. There are indeed clues but GRRM is writing the Song of Ice and Fire not the mystery of Jon Snow.


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Here is something to chew on:

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.

I've inserted this line to draw your attention to "iron". If the Long Night happened before the Andals came, there should be no mention of iron. It should have happened way back in the bronze age of the First Men.

Once again I have to disagree, there is no doubt that the First Men arrived in Westeros with bronze weapons but equally no reason to suppose that they were not familiar with iron before the Andals turned up.

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Ok. I see what you're saying. I also believe the Stark and direwolf bond is special.

Above when I was speaking of the Singers and ravens, the ravens allowing the bond. This may be the same as direwolves.

The birds called to the Singers first may be the right of it.

Epiphany! The birds hooked up the Singers with the weirwoods long long ago.

Could be! The Singers just prefer not to advertise the fact that they got started singing backup.

If you threatened Rickon with a pointed stick, would you say that Rickon had needed to explicitly warg Shaggydog after he ripped your arm off? The pups have two bonds with the Stark children: one is a warging relationship and the other is a more mystical part of him/part of you relationship. As far as we know, Robb and Rickon have never warged their pups, but the pups still were part of them and would react in advance to any threats to them as well as reflect their moods without being warged.

Rickon is a tricky one for me. We don't have a POV, but perhaps because of his age and inability to articulate his emotions in a more guarded or adult way, I see Rickon as more completely bonded with Shaggydog than any of the other Stark kids. Shaggydog seems to reflect Rickon's emotions, and I'm guessing Shaggydog can influence Rickon pretty strongly as well. It's like Rickon just goes through the process of learning and accepting the bond quite quickly, like someone that age would easily pick up another language.

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Ok. I see what you're saying. I also believe the Stark and direwolf bond is special.

Above when I was speaking of the Singers and ravens, the ravens allowing the bond. This may be the same as direwolves.

The birds called to the Singers first may be the right of it.

Epiphany! The birds hooked up the Singers with the weirwoods long long ago.

Although we could still do with a special hread on the crows to expand on some of this discussion this would seem an appropriate moment to insert this passage from the World Book:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens, and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed in “degraded” form, down to the masters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens, but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are among the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few masters devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one was able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

In GRRM-speak, given that this is supposed to be representative of the knowledge of the world at the accession of Trouserless Bob Baratheon, I'd say that its a pretty heavy clue that the masters are wrong in thinking the birds can't speak. Popular belief on the wider board has it that the Lord Commander's Raven is being warged by Bloodraven. I reckon it is speaking by itself and isn't a ventriloquist's dummy at all.

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:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: Congrats, on 100. :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:


Haven't been keeping up lately, it just moves too damn fast.




It has been less then 2 1/2 years, so unless something IDK happens, I think we will hit 200 before the next books.

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Although we could still do with a special hread on the crows to expand on some of this discussion this would seem an appropriate moment to insert this passage from the World Book:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens, and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed in “degraded” form, down to the masters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens, but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are among the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few masters devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one was able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

In GRRM-speak, given that this is supposed to be representative of the knowledge of the world at the accession of Trouserless Bob Baratheon, I'd say that its a pretty heavy clue that the masters are wrong in thinking the birds can't speak. Popular belief on the wider board has it that the Lord Commander's Raven is being warged by Bloodraven. I reckon it is speaking by itself and isn't a ventriloquist's dummy at all.

Dunno, BR made it sound like the ravens could speak because they shared skins with first the Singers, then the First Men as well. The ravens in the cave all have traces of Singers left in them, and (perhaps because of that) they understand (and presumably speak) the True Tongue. That's far cry from a raven speaking the Common Tongue entirely on its own accord.

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Once again I have to disagree, there is no doubt that the First Men arrived in Westeros with bronze weapons but equally no reason to suppose that they were not familiar with iron before the Andals turned up.

There is such a strong similarity between the timeline and history of GRRM's invented Westeros to the Ages of Man posted earlier, that there is no doubt that it was inspired by it. In our real world, we're more familiar with the three-age system. The three-age system in archaeology and physical anthropology is the periodization of human prehistory into three consecutive time periods, named for their respective tool-making technologies:

The Stone Age (Neolithic) - 10,200-3300 BC

The Bronze Age - 3300-1200 BC

The Iron Age - 1200 BC to 1700+ AD

Worldwide, the Bronze Age generally followed the Neolithic period, but in some parts of the world, the Copper Age served as a transition from Neolithic (Stone) to Bronze. Although the Iron Age generally followed the Bronze Age, in some areas the Iron Age intruded directly on the Neolithic from outside the region with the exception of the Sub-Saharan Africa where it was developed independently. This real life fact is aped in the storyline as evidenced with the Arryns at the Eyrie, and the origins of other Andal families in the south prior to the official Andal Invasion.

My assertion is that the Bronze Age of Westeros was also historically short, if 2000 years can be considered "short" before small spurts of Andal influences show up here and there in the southern parts of Westeros. The overthrow of the Night's King is ancient history in the story and may correspond with the change from bronze to iron. I think the lower levels of the crypts of Winterfell will prove to be encircled with iron just like real cemeteries in our planet's history to keep the dead from leaving Winterfell.

I don't understand your dismissiveness of the evidence.

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The bronze age was when the First Men came from Essos to Westeros. They used bromze because everybody at the time did, that how the Ghiscari Empire rose to prominence due to the copper in their mountains.


Thousands of years later when the Rhoynar are teaching the Andals how to work iron, is the iron age. In these thousands of years, there is no reason that the First Men hadn't on their own begun working iron and no reason to think that they were still using bronze weapons when the Andals invaded.


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My take on the timeline:

Dawn Age:

- CotF, Giants, and other mythical creatires (the great lions, direwolfs, etc.) dominate Westeros.

- First men invade. My guess some kind of population surge (caused invention of horse driven plow?) leads to First men seeking new lands.

- Peace between FM and CotF, FM assimilate some facets of CoTF culture (like religion)

Age of Heros:

- Golden age of the FM

- Rise of many of the Great FM Houses (but not Stark) and Moat Cailin and other great castles built

- Moat Cailin is seat of a now lost Great House with close ties to the CoTF

Snip:

If you look back to the beginning of Centennial Project, a lot for time was devoted to Moat Cailin in the timeline. The short version is that Cailin couldn't have been build before the Hammer because Cailin makes no defensive sense until after the Neck was formed.

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Just for interest here is some information about traditional Australian Aboriginal Culture.



The Dreaming



“Aboriginal spirituality does not consider the ‘Dreamtime’ as a time past, in fact not as a time at all. Time refers to past, present and future but the ‘Dreamtime’ is none of these. The ‘Dreamtime’ “is there with them, it is not a long way away. The Dreamtime is the environment that the Aboriginal lived in, and it still exists today, all around us”. It is important to note that the Dreaming always also comprises the significance of place.


Hence, if we try to use an English word, we should avoid the term ‘Dreamtime’ and use the word ‘Dreaming’ instead. It expresses better the timeless concept of moving from ‘dream’ to reality, which in itself is an act of creation and the basis of many Aboriginal creation myths. None of the hundreds of Aboriginal languages contain a word for time. …


The Dreaming also explains the creation process. Ancestor beings rose and roamed the initially barren land, fought and loved, and created the land’s features as we see them today. After creating the ‘sacred world’ the spiritual beings “turned into rocks or trees or a part of the landscape. These became sacred places, to be seen only by initiated men.” “



http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/spirituality/what-is-the-dreamtime-or-the-dreaming#ixzz2vH87zqHZ




Creation



“Aboriginal people throughout most of Australia believe that in the beginning of time, in the Dreaming, there were no visible landmarks; the world was flat. As time progressed, creatures emerged from the ground and had the power to change at will from their animal to their human form.




…These original ancestral beings created all the features of the landscape in the area in which their lives were spent, and also populated the entire region concerned. By their actions they laid down the rules of conduct for all their offspring.



Throughout their lives on earth they left inseminating powers in the soil; they also created, and taught


to others, many songs including those recounting the history of their own lives, songs for healing the


wounded and the sick, injuring the enemy, including rain, arresting the flood, or causing the wind to


turn back.



The inseminating powers left by these ancestors are doubly important to the present people: first


because the propagation of their group is dependent on this power to create human offspring in the


likeliness of the human elements of the ancestor; secondly because the food source of the group is


dependent on this power of each ancestor to ensure the plentiful supply of recreated forms of the


animal or plant element of the ancestor's being.



These powers become most accessible to the present inhabitants of the area on those occasions


when the spirit of a particular ancestor is drawn towards his own identification marks of the song,



acts and designs which he originally created and which have been meticulously preserved ever since.



http://www.aboriginalart.com.au/didgeridoo/songs.html



Ancestor Spirits



In most stories of the Dreaming, the Ancestor Spirits came to the earth in human form and as they moved through the land, they created the animals, plants, rocks and other forms of the land that we know today. They also created the relationships between groups and individuals to the land, the animals and other people.


Once the ancestor spirits had created the world, they changed into trees, the stars, rocks, watering holes or other objects. These are the sacred places of Aboriginal culture and have special properties. Because the ancestors did not disappear at the end of the Dreaming, but remained in these sacred sites, the Dreaming is never-ending, linking the past and the present, the people and the land.



http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/dreaming



Spirits of Past, Present, and Future.



The Aborigines believe that the spirits of ancestral beings that sleep beneath the ground emerged from the earth during Dreamtime. As they wandered across the land, the ancestral beings took on the forms of humans, animals, plants, stars, wind, or rain. During their epic journey, they created hills, plains, and other natural formations. Some of the beings brought forth rain. Some created the first people, and some established the laws by which people would live.


When the ancestral beings lay down upon the wet and still soft rocks, they often left impressions of themselves. The Aborigines believe that the ancestral beings continue to live in the places that bear their mark. There, deep down in the earth, they left various forces, including "child-spirits," which take on human form through a father and a mother on earth. One of the ways in which humans trace their origin to the ancestral beings of Dreamtime is through the child-spirits.


Dreamtime did not end at the time of creation because the ancestral beings and the child-spirits are eternal. When a life ends, the child-spirit returns to the earth and remains there until it comes back again in another human form. Moreover, by participating in certain rituals, individuals can reenact the journeys of their ancestors. Ancestral beings and human beings are thus closely and forever linked.”



http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Dr-Fi/Dreamtime.html#b



Songlines



“Songlines are Aboriginal walking trails, pilgrimage routes and trade routes, and they were far more plentiful than people usually imagine. In traditional Aboriginal society Songlines criss-crossed the whole Australian landscape linking important sites and locations. They were maintained by regular traffic use, burning off and clearing. These trails were also signposted by natural and man-made environmental signs, these man-made signs usually being in the form of ‘Marker Trees’. These were trees that had either been scarred in the process of canoe or artifact making, or had been tied together when young so as to grow in the form of an arch or ring, or were otherwise trees that naturally grew with a spiral grain. Such ‘spiral marker trees’ occurred naturally as occasional genetic freaks, but were only allowed to grow if they happened to be doing so on a Songline.”



http://www.jimpoulter.com/article13.html



Song Cycles



Bill Harney, Wardaman Elder, 2009


"Kaltjiti artist sing country, dance country and paint the song of their lands. The epic song cycles of the Western Desert peoples have resounded for thousands of years across these sand dunes of central Australia, echoed back from the orange rock faces of the granite hills and eddied around the deep blue rock holes where precious water hides from the scorching sun. 
The creation ancestors first sang these songs at the dawn of time. These giant beings strode the land changing their shape from human to beast or plant, to water, earth or wind. The landscape still holds their resting forms in rounded hills, the fury of their flight was caught in twisted bloodwood trees and their flesh – now transformed – wraps the marble gums as dappled bark. 
Songs sung down the generations have kept the land alive and spirit of her people strong."



http://www.tourism.australia.com/aboriginal/aboriginal-culture/dreamtime-stories-and-songlines.aspx

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Lol when your done :grouphug: will be waiting with some bandages.They brutal over there man,absolutely brutal.

Looks like I have backup coming in .... Thanks all!

( I still like being nursed though ... :o )

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Whoa, Nellie! They were very passionate, however I've recently read that they are on hiatus until the next book.

I can take punishment, but not That much. I just ran from a Rhaegar thread because the two sides were going Sharks and Jets without the music.

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The Nymeria idea is one I hadn't considered. How very. . . humanist of me. I always assumed that Nymeria is primarily driven by Arya's desires. However, seen this way, it sort of seems like Nymeria could be an independent driving factor in Arya maintaining her identity.

Hence Arya calling her latest identity (the true one) the Night Wolf.

So, if I may ask someone who has gone among the natives. . .

what, in your expert opinion, is "genre-blindness"?

I'm not sure .... I kinda' lost track after I tried to joke it off with her and she went nuclear. I felt like I had a ferret chewing on my ankles. :rotf:

... and no, I'm not going DB Cooper again. :)

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The evidence in the books of iron being used to suppress bronze are:



1) the crown of the King in the North - a bronze circlet surrounded by iron swords


2) the Stark crypts with iron swords across their laps


3) the armor of the Royce's - a bronze plate studded with iron


4) the Wall - built with iron rich blood



There's probably more. This was just off the top of my head.


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The evidence in the books of iron being used to suppress bronze are:

1) the crown of the King in the North - a bronze circlet surrounded by iron swords

2) the Stark crypts with iron swords across their laps

3) the armor of the Royce's - a bronze plate studded with iron

4) the Wall - built with iron rich blood

There's probably more. This was just off the top of my head.

That's quite a list, each more abstract than the last :P What do you mean by "iron suppressing bronze", whats the significance?

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