HERESY 100

[A Bastard Snow]

I am not saying Jon is AA in the way that Mel and others think.Personally I think the story has been embellished a lot.For example the story about how he sacrificed the life of his wife could be true or it could be part of the oath the Nights Watch takes about how they "shall take no wife"Also "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn".The sword of AA is called lightbringer and I think its a metaphorical sword representing the Watch.Another part says that "A warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword"That also seems metaphorical for the re-forging remaking of the Watch that Jon is doing/will do

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No, with respect that's exactly what he says; its very clear both from Maester Luwin's history (and Osha's intervention) and the Hedge Knight introduction that the Pact lasted until the Andals arrived and started slaughtering the Singers.

Also with respect, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Pact only last 4,000 years. It just means that the Age of Heroes (the period of peace between the First men and the children) which lasted 4,000 years, and the Pact endured beyond that until the Andals invaded.

[Toccs]

Also with respect, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Pact only last 4,000 years. It just means that the Age of Heroes (the period of peace between the First men and the children) which lasted 4,000 years, and the Pact endured beyond that until the Andals invaded.

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children...The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea. The Andals were first..."

The pact lasted for four thousand years and was broken by the Andals. The Age of Heroes and the Long Night occur within that four thousand years.

If we take the 4000 years between the Pact and the Andal invasion as accurate (which I don't necessarily), and then follow the Maester's lead and conservatively place the Andal Invasion at about 2000 years ago. We have the Pact being signed approximately 6000 years ago with the Age of Heroes and the Long Night coming afterwards.

Incidentally, this places the Long Night, as many of us myself included have often theorized as at around the same time as the rise of Valyria around 5000 years ago.

ETA : Moved discussion to Heresy 101.

[ladyinblack]

I don't know, Wolfmaid... the word "warg" seems like it was originally an epithet - a pejorative label assigned by outsiders. I think either you are one, or you're not... and the wolf is the tell. To extend Haggon's analogy, if the wolf is the wife then the warg is the husband of the relationship. (Or we could just go with "spouses," out of respect for our female wargs and male wolves...) And we all will readily recognize that some marriages are "better" or healthier than others. So I think the contrast between Varamyr and other wargs is more likely one of relationship quality.

Where I think Martin is going with this is more in the direction of the self-relationship. Marriage is described elsewhere in the books as a joining of two persons into one "self," and in my reading it is very closely connected with the grafting metaphor we've discussed in connection with Craster's wives and with House Stark. Can't remember where it is right now, but at some point there is a remark about Tywin Lannister that "the best part of his self died with Joanna" (paraphrasing, obviously). And Catelyn entertain similarly characterized thoughts about Ned between his death and her own.

ETA: ...and where I was going with that thought was simply that if Varamyr is abusive of his human and animal brothers, then I think Martin's message is that Varamyr is abusive of himself. And Varamyr's failure to recognize the unity between himself and his wolves is the clearest sign that he fails to "know himself." In other words, he cannot be whole - not an integrated self - precisely because he perceives his wolves as "other." That would be consistent, in my view, with what Jojen says to Bran and what Catelyn says to Robb - also with Arya's situation, after she drives Nymeria away... and, tragically, with Sansa following the death of Lady.

For the warg, to deny the wolf is to deny the self.

Most excellently expressed!!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Most excellently expressed!!

Thanks, ladyinblack! Come join in the conversation - looks like we're about to start Heresy 102... :)

[Mimessa]

He had also told M.Luuwin that the trees can talk,that they ask him to come with them and that it's scary

This is not the first or second time Bran has dreamed the Weirwood calling him,and BR we know is connected to a Weirwood and in one of his lessons to Bran actually made reference to the trees "calling him BR". I say that to highlight that it seems likely than when BR talked to Bran about appearing in his dreams and calling him he was in fact the Weirwood.

Which begs the question,who is the 3eyed crow,and why does he seemingly endeavor to go between communication between Bran and the trees.

BR is both tree and raven. He can be whatever he chooses--the 3 eyed raven is his preferred way of communicating to Bran exactly what Bran wants to hear (that he will fly).

[Mimessa]

• The Nights Watch shoot missiles from the top of the Wall and kill wildlings

How can missiles shot from one side of the Wall kill someone on the other if they are being fired into a different realm.

This isn't a big deal--only physical objects are at work here, nothing magical. They need only to overcome the physical nature of the Wall in order to fire anything and kill anything.

Also-- in relation to BR et all--is there not a point he says Bran could move on from just seeing what the trees and animals have seen and into a different level of "seeing"? Similar to other folks on here saying the white cold is like an entity unto itself, could Bran warg into the cold, fire, water, storms, etc as he becomes more proficient?