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HERESY 100


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For the relevant text quotations identifying the "same self" relationship of Starks and direwolves, see the first part of this post.

And here's the passage by Snowfyre which she references:

Specifically... you can drop the prepositions. As Jojen says to Bran, he confronts him about the wolf-bond... "Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran." (ACOK, Chapter 28) And later, Catelyn says same thing to Robb after he marries Jeyne and starts sending Greywind away: "He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you." (ASOS, Chapter 14)

Notably, these statements are each delivered in scenes in which the Stark child explicitly denies that he is a wolf. But the wolf is not "in" Bran... the wolf is Bran. And likewise, Robb.

Just by the by, in the light of the above its interesting to read speculation on another thread about which of Danaerys' amazing dragons Jon (Targaryen) is going to warg...

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Ah well this is why I think that there is a difference between skinchanging and warging. It is disputed by some on this board but I believe that warging is as described to Bran with part of the beast in the warg and part of the warg in the beast; a partnership in other words, while skinchanging implies a taking over and controlling often against the beast's will.

Totally agree.... to go further what V6 did with all his animals was skinchanging. He.He broke them by bending their will to accept him. What the DWs and the Dragons do with their proxies is a partnership.

I got the sense from Bran's first flight the Crow "allowed" him to Warg it.The Others didn't hence his trying and trying.He was trying to force them the moment he stopped trying it just happened.

Edit: When i get home if i remember i'll post the first flight to get a visual.

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I'm going to ask a question again that I asked a few threads ago, what with the pace of these threads it got left behind but I'm really curious to know peoples thoughts on this.



When Leaf is listing the different "old races" that are now on the verge (or over the verge) of extinction, she mentions giants, great lions, unicorns, mammoths & direwolves. My question is, why does she not mention dragons? GRRM has said that dragons were once "everywhere". Does that mean that dragons predate the singers & had already died out in westeros by the time the first singers appeared or what? I can't think of a good reason why she wouldn't include dragons in her list. She says the she was "born in the time of the dragon" & says she walked the world of men for "two hundred years", so she was born some time after Aegon's conquest & began her travels at some point in the 1st century AL. She knows dragons existed yet she does not bemoan there demise. Two possibilities i can see exist from that premise, either the singers have no connection to dragons & so do not care about them or they are happy the dragons are gone & may have had something to do with their demise.


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I'm going to ask a question again that I asked a few threads ago, what with the pace of these threads it got left behind but I'm really curious to know peoples thoughts on this.

When Leaf is listing the different "old races" that are now on the verge (or over the verge) of extinction, she mentions giants, great lions, unicorns, mammoths & direwolves. My question is, why does she not mention dragons? GRRM has said that dragons were once "everywhere". Does that mean that dragons predate the singers & had already died out in westeros by the time the first singers appeared or what? I can't think of a good reason why she wouldn't include dragons in her list. She says the she was "born in the time of the dragon" & says she walked the world of men for "two hundred years", so she was born some time after Aegon's conquest & began her travels at some point in the 1st century AL. She knows dragons existed yet she does not bemoan there demise. Two possibilities i can see exist from that premise, either the singers have no connection to dragons & so do not care about them or they are happy the dragons are gone & may have had something to do with their demise.

Or perhaps she is aware of their recent rebirth, making them no longer one of the dwindling old races.

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I'm going to ask a question again that I asked a few threads ago, what with the pace of these threads it got left behind but I'm really curious to know peoples thoughts on this.

When Leaf is listing the different "old races" that are now on the verge (or over the verge) of extinction, she mentions giants, great lions, unicorns, mammoths & direwolves. My question is, why does she not mention dragons? GRRM has said that dragons were once "everywhere". Does that mean that dragons predate the singers & had already died out in westeros by the time the first singers appeared or what? I can't think of a good reason why she wouldn't include dragons in her list. She says the she was "born in the time of the dragon" & says she walked the world of men for "two hundred years", so she was born some time after Aegon's conquest & began her travels at some point in the 1st century AL. She knows dragons existed yet she does not bemoan there demise. Two possibilities i can see exist from that premise, either the singers have no connection to dragons & so do not care about them or they are happy the dragons are gone & may have had something to do with their demise.

I always read Leaf's being born in the time of the dragon as a reference to the Targaryens, and I very much doubt that she recognised the big scaly beasties as being anything to do with Westeros' past.

Its worth noting this passage in the World Book:

The Dawn Age

There is none who can say when the world began with certain knowledge, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old as some hold, or perhaps as large a number as five hundred thousand or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered.

We can be sure that the world was far more primitive, however a barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days are in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians and the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truth their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff.

What can be accurately told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples, as uncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed, the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants…

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Simply put, the dragons were capable of being everywhere by virtue of their ability to fly, but are not indigenous to Westeros.

And don't last long in Westeros either, at least from a Singer's perspective. :devil:

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And here's the passage by Snowfyre which she references:

Specifically... you can drop the prepositions. As Jojen says to Bran, he confronts him about the wolf-bond... "Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran." (ACOK, Chapter 28) And later, Catelyn says same thing to Robb after he marries Jeyne and starts sending Greywind away: "He is part of you, Robb. To fear him is to fear you." (ASOS, Chapter 14)

Notably, these statements are each delivered in scenes in which the Stark child explicitly denies that he is a wolf. But the wolf is not "in" Bran... the wolf is Bran. And likewise, Robb.

Just by the by, in the light of the above its interesting to read speculation on another thread about which of Danaerys' amazing dragons Jon (Targaryen) is going to warg...

BC you know my theory on the bonds being initiated by the familiar rigt.Well I suggested that the site that shouldn't be named that a dragon may not choose Jon.That its not up to him, well l barley made it out with my life.

So nuh things like these will not be taken well.

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BC you know my theory on the bonds being initiated by the familiar rigt.Well I suggested that the site that shouldn't be named that a dragon may not choose Jon.That its not up to him, well l barely made it out with my life.

So nuh things like these will not be taken well.

Welcome to the club, you are now a true heretic for you have spoken heresy in a sacred place.

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Totally agree.... to go further what V6 did with all his animals was skinchanging. He.He broke them by bending their will to accept him. What the DWs and the Dragons do with their proxies is a partnership.

I got the sense from Bran's first flight the Crow "allowed" him to Warg it.The Others didn't hence his trying and trying.He was trying to force them the moment he stopped trying it just happened.

Edit: When i get home if i remember i'll post the first flight to get a visual.

I agree with you here. With the exception of Varamyr. The link ( skinchanging ) with his bear and ridge cat was a struggle for him. The link with his wolves is warging. He even speaks of himself as a warg while running and eating inside the wolf. Saying wargs are not scared of men the way wolves are. He is both skinchanger and warg at the same time. Hence his power and status among the free folk.

ETA I know technically a warg is a skinchanger but a skinchanger is not necessarily a warg. But his relationship with One Eye ( and I believe the other two wolves)is a warg bond.

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I agree with you here. With the exception of Varamyr. The link ( skinchanging ) with his bear and ridge cat was a struggle for him. The link with his wolves is warging. He even speaks of himself as a warg while running and eating inside the wolf. Saying wargs are not scared of men the way wolves are. He is both skinchanger and warg at the same time. Hence his power and status among the free folk.

Yeah this where we will disagree, V6 made it clear that he took all the animals he had in thrall.He initiated the bond with them.Not the other way around nor was the relationships mutual. He bent them all including his wolves to his will.

Much of V6 was a lot I'd bravado including "I am Varymr the Warg" he was a warg wanna be

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Yeah this where we will disagree, V6 made it clear that he took all the animals he had in thrall.He initiated the bond with them.Not the other way around nor was the relationships mutual. He bent them all including his wolves to his will.

Much of V6 was a lot I'd bravado including "I am Varymr the Warg" he was a warg wanna be

Even Bran called.him warg.

Ill throw this quote in here about V6s animals - after thinking of his wolves he goes on with

'Varamyr had lost control of his other beast in the agony of the eagle's death. His shadowcat had raced into the woods, while his snow bear turned her claws on those around her, ripping apart.four men before falling to a spear. She would have slain Varamyr had he come within her reach. The bear hated him, had raged each time he wore her skin or climbed upon her back.

His wolves, though....

My brothers. My pack. Many a cold night he had slept with his wolves their shaggy bodies piled up around him to help keep him warm.[...]"

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Anyway, the warg bond between wolf and man being similar to the bond between Singer and bird is... pretty cool. I was thinking the ravens were the only animal the Singers could use in that way, but maybe they Choose to do so ,and the ravens allow it. Maybe anything else would be forcing the situation.

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I should clarify, in the sense that he skinchanges wolves,yes he is a Warg.In the sense that he is a Warg like the Stark kids no.




The quote below says it right,V6 essentially married his wolves,he took them and formed a bond with them.So they recognized him as part of their pack. However,when he skinchanged them he had presence of self to know that he was V6.He identified himself and he identified his wolves.It is not the same with the Stark kids. They are saying "THEY ARE THEIR WOLVES" there is no separateness of saying Ghost is Ghost and Jon is Jon.He is not saying Ghost is part of him,he is saying Ghost is him.



" A man might befriend a wolf,even break a wolf,but no man can truly tame a wolf".Wolves and women mate for life," Haggon often said. "You take,one that's a marraige. The wolf is part of you that day on, and you're part of him.Both of you will change




"Varymr could take any beast he wanted,bend them to his will,make their flesh his own.Dog or wolf,bear or badger.



The above again points to that fact that V6 initiated his bonds,held his animals in thrall.BC's quotes about how the Stark kids refer to themselves in comparison to their wolves is very telling and is the difference between them and V6.He is not his wolves,and they are not him they just share.( not the above quotes i'll go find them)



The wolves like the Dragons have sung their songs and collected their proxies.They are the Stark kids.


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My take on the timeline:



Dawn Age:


- CotF, Giants, and other mythical creatires (the great lions, direwolfs, etc.) dominate Westeros.


- First men invade. My guess some kind of population surge (caused invention of horse driven plow?) leads to First men seeking new lands.


- Peace between FM and CotF, FM assimilate some facets of CoTF culture (like religion)



Age of Heros:


- Golden age of the FM


- Rise of many of the Great FM Houses (but not Stark) and Moat Cailin and other great castles built


- Moat Cailin is seat of a now lost Great House with close ties to the CoTF



Andal Invasion


- Andals begin migration into Westeros due to religious fanaticism (crusades vs Old Gods) and maybe pressure from Rhoyne peoples


- Andals conquer most of southern Westeros except Dorne and stopped at Moat Cailin by Northerners (not necessarily Starks)


- During a battle, CoTF allies with whoever owns Moat Cailin release magics in attempt to defeat Andals and unwillingly unleash the Long Night, Others, and Dragons and destroying most of Moat Cailin


- A Stark (Last Hero), which at that time may have been a lesser house of whoever owned Moat Cailin,seeks out aid of CotF during long night. Finds CoTF cave complex is beneath site now known as Winterfell


- CoTF guilted into trying to top the Long Night use magic to create the Wall to hold back Winter


- Winterfell founded, Starks with connection with CoTF rise to power in the North with a Stark seated at Winterfell and another at the Wall



Post Andal Invasion


- Starks become the King of Winter subduing rivals such as house Bolton


- Starks on Wall mingle with Winter Magic trapped north of Wall, becomes the Nights King.


- Starks of Winterfell with Andal aid overthrow the Nights Kings. Nights Watch created by Andals to keep watch of whats North of the Wall. CoTF booted from North as price of Andal aid.


- Rhoyne migration to Dorne, still divided between Andal and FM, shift balance of power to Martells



Aegon Invades...


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Ah well this is why I think that there is a difference between skinchanging and warging. It is disputed by some on this board but I believe that warging is as described to Bran with part of the beast in the warg and part of the warg in the beast; a partnership in other words, while skinchanging implies a taking over and controlling often against the beast's will.

Ok, I like the differentiation.

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