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HERESY 100


Black Crow

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Yes, but the "warg" comparison is key - because it implies that the animal need not be "controlled" (i.e., skin-changed), in order to partner up with the human (or in this case... the non-human) agent. The direwolves stick with the Stark children long before any of them figure out how to "slip" their skins. And even after the Stark child figures that out, the wolf accompanies and defends him regardless. The partnership or "alliance" does not presuppose constant skin-changing.

You are saying that the elk would be responding on it's own intellectual accord?

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BC you know my theory on the bonds being initiated by the familiar rigt.Well I suggested that the site that shouldn't be named that a dragon may not choose Jon.That its not up to him, well l barley made it out with my life.

So nuh things like these will not be taken well.

I'm over there right now getting sworn at. :)

Got to do something while waiting for TRJS to come after me and Red with a pitchfork ( well, mainly me ).

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I'm over there right now getting sworn at. :)

Got to do something while waiting for TRJS to come after me and Red with a pitchfork ( well, mainly me ).

Lol when your done :grouphug: will be waiting with some bandages.They brutal over there man,absolutely brutal.

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I should clarify, in the sense that he skinchanges wolves,yes he is a Warg.In the sense that he is a Warg like the Stark kids no.

The quote below says it right,V6 essentially married his wolves,he took them and formed a bond with them.So they recognized him as part of their pack. However,when he skinchanged them he had presence of self to know that he was V6.He identified himself and he identified his wolves.It is not the same with the Stark kids. They are saying "THEY ARE THEIR WOLVES" there is no separateness of saying Ghost is Ghost and Jon is Jon.He is not saying Ghost is part of him,he is saying Ghost is him.

The above again points to that fact that V6 initiated his bonds,held his animals in thrall.BC's quotes about how the Stark kids refer to themselves in comparison to their wolves is very telling and is the difference between them and V6.He is not his wolves,and they are not him they just share.( not the above quotes i'll go find them)

The wolves like the Dragons have sung their songs and collected their proxies.They are the Stark kids.

Ok. I see what you're saying. I also believe the Stark and direwolf bond is special.

Above when I was speaking of the Singers and ravens, the ravens allowing the bond. This may be the same as direwolves.

The birds called to the Singers first may be the right of it.

Epiphany! The birds hooked up the Singers with the weirwoods long long ago.

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Congrats BC and everybody. This thread is pretty awesome and has changed my outlook on the series. Hopefully the book comes out before the 200th thread.................. :bang:

If it takes untill Heresy 200, we may well write the thing ourselves. Hah! Just kidding.

Its like the Long Night- we can speculate and dig for facts. We can fight and rage or hide away, but we can do nothing about the Winds of Winter. We have to wait on Lightbringer.

I was not directing that at you, just being cheesy.

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In the books there's no connection, as I said it seems to just be a quick and dirty way of connecting them for the non-reading viewers of the show.

What's less than clear about the weirwood faces in the book is why there should be so much diversity in that grove north of Castle Black; benevolent yes, stern yes, both suitable expressions for objects of worship - but screaming?

This has always bothered me. It as if these faces weren't carved at all but the faces represent the emotions of the greenseer at the time of encapsulation ( imprisonment?)

No real evidence of this but it sure seems creepy.

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Ok. I see what you're saying. I also believe the Stark and direwolf bond is special.

Above when I was speaking of the Singers and ravens, the ravens allowing the bond. This may be the same as direwolves.

The birds called to the Singers first may be the right of it.

Epiphany! The birds hooked up the Singers with the weirwoods long long ago.

When it comes to the Ravens also allowing themselves to be ridden i think that's the right of it.Bran "forcing" himself on Hodor,is no different than V6 forcing himself on his animals. The moment "he stopped" and submitted he was successful in getting choosen.

"but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden.Choose one ,and fly."

He chose one bird,and then another,without success,but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes tilted its head and gave a quork,and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy (ADWD,Bran p.399 electronic version)

So then it becomes not so much that the person is special,but really and truly the seemingly insignificant beings like the Dragons,Dire wolves,Crows and Trees are the ones who have a preference.

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So here's an interesting spin. If the ravens are to the Singers as the direwolves are to the Starks... Allies, not in the sense of simply being "skinchanged" (i.e., possessed) animals, but in the sense of being partners and parts of the same self - then to the extent we're inclined to view them as players in their own right, would it make sense to imagine the ravens on a quest for vengeance on behalf of the departed Singers?

The idea of the ravens having their own agenda is very interesting, whether it's revenge or justice. Your thought has reminded me that there is also a natural alliance between ravens and wolves in our world, as is discussed in the book, Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures With Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich. Maybe there is a parallel here and direwolves are allies, or are working with the ravens, in the Raven Agenda?

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So they skinchange them and then they're allies? I'm not sure I see a difference.

If you threatened Rickon with a pointed stick, would you say that Rickon had needed to explicitly warg Shaggydog after he ripped your arm off? The pups have two bonds with the Stark children: one is a warging relationship and the other is a more mystical part of him/part of you relationship. As far as we know, Robb and Rickon have never warged their pups, but the pups still were part of them and would react in advance to any threats to them as well as reflect their moods without being warged.

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The idea of the ravens having their own agenda is very interesting, whether it's revenge or justice. Your thought has reminded me that there is also a natural alliance between ravens and wolves in our world, as is discussed in the book, Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures With Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich. Maybe there is a parallel here and direwolves are allies, or are working with the ravens, in the Raven Agenda?

And woe and behold these two animals are associated within Jon (Both associated with the Morrigan).There's a nice tie with them to Shamanism too.

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If you threatened Rickon with a pointed stick, would you say that Rickon had needed to explicitly warg Shaggydog after he ripped your arm off? The pups have two bonds with the Stark children: one is a warging relationship and the other is a more mystical part of him/part of you relationship. As far as we know, Robb and Rickon have never warged their pups, but the pups still were part of them and would react in advance to any threats to them as well as reflect their moods without being warged.

Well put, Phillip Frye. The relationship (the "alliance") seems to precede any actual skin-changing...

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I always read Leaf's being born in the time of the dragon as a reference to the Targaryens, and I very much doubt that she recognised the big scaly beasties as being anything to do with Westeros' past.

Its worth noting this passage in the World Book:

The Dawn Age

There is none who can say when the world began with certain knowledge, yet this has not stopped many maesters and learned men from seeking the answer. Is it forty thousand years old as some hold, or perhaps as large a number as five hundred thousand or even more? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered.

We can be sure that the world was far more primitive, however a barbarous place of tribes living directly from the land with no knowledge of the working of metal or the taming of beasts. What little is known to us of those days are in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians and the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age. So what truth their tales contain are difficult to find, like seeds among chaff.

What can be accurately told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples, as uncivilized, as all the world was uncivilized, but numerous. But on Westeros, from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea, only two peoples existed, the children of the forest and the race of creatures known as the giants…

Well, I would say this passage should clarify that there were only two races prior to the First Men: Children and giants. No mention of Others, so we should feel confident in our assertion that they are a different sort of life....a created life.

I'm over there right now getting sworn at. :)

Got to do something while waiting for TRJS to come after me and Red with a pitchfork ( well, mainly me ).

Lol when your done :grouphug: will be waiting with some bandages.They brutal over there man,absolutely brutal.

Have either of you ventured into the Sansa threads?

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Well, I would say this passage should clarify that there were only two races prior to the First Men: Children and giants. No mention of Others, so we should feel confident in our assertion that they are a different sort of life....a created life.

Have either of you ventured into the Sansa threads?

Created maybe but George has a lot to choose from in the "different sort of life" department besides the "creation" route.

I haven't visited the Sansa thread, is it as passionate as the R+L=J thread?

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And woe and behold these two animals are associated within Jon (Both associated with the Morrigan).There's a nice tie with them to Shamanism too.

And don't forget the Lakota North Wind being, Waziya, who is also associated with the wolf and raven.

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The idea of the ravens having their own agenda is very interesting, whether it's revenge or justice. Your thought has reminded me that there is also a natural alliance between ravens and wolves in our world, as is discussed in the book, Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures With Wolf-Birds by Bernd Heinrich. Maybe there is a parallel here and direwolves are allies, or are working with the ravens, in the Raven Agenda?

Wow. What an interesting sounding book...

-----

"Wolves may have also had a hand in their survival. During a trip to Yellowstone National Park, Heinrich observes that ravens arrive at all wolf kills and immediately begin feeding. However, they avoid carcasses where wolves are absent.

"Though confusing behaviorwhy wouldn't ravens take advantage of an easy food source?it fits a pattern Heinrich had observed before; that ravens invariably choose to be with the wolves. "Maybe (ravens) had evolved with wolves in a mutualism that is millions of years old, so that they have innate behaviors that link them to wolves, making them uncomfortable without their presence."

"Ravens need wolves for several reasons: they rely on wolves to kill, to open carcasses (ravens are incapable of tearing open a carcass) and to possibly overcome their innate shyness of large food. Wolves also need ravens. Ravens have been reported to alert wolves to potential food sources and to danger.

"Wolf watchers have historically taken ravens and wolves for granted, "so much is taken for granted that further comment, or data, have seemed superfluous," Heinrich writes. Heinrich successfully convinced Yellowstone biologists to include studies of ravens with their studies of wolves. As the book went to press, initial surveys indicated ravens always showed up at wolf kills and fed with the wolves within minutes. In the twenty-five cases where provided meat was unattended by wolves no ravens fed within the hour of observation..."

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Created maybe but George has a lot to choose from in the "different sort of life" department besides the "creation" route.

I haven't visited the Sansa thread, is it as passionate as the R+L=J thread?

Whoa, Nellie! They were very passionate, however I've recently read that they are on hiatus until the next book.

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