HERESY 100

[Dagda]

Hang on .... just answering Ice a second ago triggered something. Could the Long Night have been as simple as a reference to the Younger Dryas? The evidence shows it as a short period lasting 70 to as long as 200 yrs, which would give in the need generations in Westeros, and it would lock the the timeline ( kinda ' ) into the Neolithic.

Can't be that simple, can it?

[Black Crow]

Come on Black Crow. You are usually one to read things in context and with insight.

Martin's SSM about dragons was in answer to a very specific question.

He was asked how come there are stories of dragonslayers from the Age of Heroes in Westeros if there were no Dragons in Westeros prior to the arrival of the Targaryen Dragons. And whether the existence of these stories suggests that there were dragons in Westeros BEFORE the Targaryens arrived?

His answer - directly in response to this question - was: "There were dragons all over, once".

The implication is clear.

We know that as far back as 5000 years ago, there were not dragons "all over". The only dragons were nesting in the Valyrian volcanos, where they were discovered by the primitive Valyrians of the time.

So the reference to dragons "all over the world" at some point in the distant past, has to predate the Valyrian dragons by a long, long time.

And the fact that Martin gave this as an answer to why there were ancient legends of dragons and dragonslayers in Westeros makes it clear that it was the presence of these wild and native dragons that generated these legends. In the Age of Heroes. BEFORE the Long Night.

Perfectly true as to the context, but the fact remains that while explaining away a sticky question, GRRM has not so far followed through with any evidence of the kind that could so easily have been inserted into the World Book or into Leaf's account of early life in Westeros.

Conversely, we have a parallel to Serwyn of the Mirror Shield in St. George, the dragonslayer, who is the patron saint of England but has no other connection to the country and certainly never slew a dragon on British soil.

[Dagda]

Sorry, quick Younger Dryas define:

The Younger Dryas saw a rapid return to glacial conditions in the higher latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere between 12.9–11.5 ka BP,[6] in sharp contrast to the warming of the preceding interstadial deglaciation. It has been believed that the transitions each occurred over a period of a decade or so,[7] but the onset may have been faster.[8] Thermally fractionated nitrogen and argon isotope data from Greenland ice core GISP2 indicate that the summit of Greenland was approximately 15 °C (27 °F) colder during the Younger Dryas[7] than today. In the UK, coleopteran (beetle) fossil evidence suggests that mean annual temperature dropped to approximately 5 °C (41 °F),[9] and periglacial conditions prevailed in lowland areas, while icefields and glaciers formed in upland areas.[10] Nothing of the size, extent, or rapidity of this period of abrupt climate change has been experienced since.[6]

In western Europe and Greenland, the Younger Dryas is a well-defined synchronous cool period.[11] But cooling in the tropical North Atlantic may have preceded this by a few hundred years; South America shows a less well defined initiation but a sharp termination. The Antarctic Cold Reversal appears to have started a thousand years before the Younger Dryas, and has no clearly defined start or end; Peter Huybers has argued that there is fair confidence in the absence of the Younger Dryas in Antarctica, New Zealand and parts of Oceania.[12] Timing of the tropical counterpart to the Younger Dryas – the Deglaciation Climate Reversal (DCR) – is difficult to establish as low latitude ice core records generally lack independent dating over this interval. An example of this is the Sajama ice core (Bolivia), for which the timing of the DCR has been pinned to that of the GISP2 ice core record (central Greenland). Climatic change in the central Andes during the DCR, however, was significant and characterized by a shift to much wetter, and likely colder, conditions.[13] The magnitude and abruptness of these changes would suggest that low latitude climate did not respond passively during the YD/DCR.

In western North America it is likely that the effects of the Younger Dryas were less intense than in Europe; however, evidence of glacial re-advance[14] indicates Younger Dryas cooling occurred in the Pacific Northwest.

Other features seen include:

Replacement of forest in Scandinavia with glacial tundra (which is the habitat of the plant Dryas octopetala)

Glaciation or increased snow in mountain ranges around the world

Formation of solifluction layers and loess deposits in Northern Europe

More dust in the atmosphere, originating from deserts in Asia

Drought in the Levant, perhaps motivating the Natufian culture to develop agriculture

The Huelmo/Mascardi Cold Reversal in the Southern Hemisphere ended at the same time

Decline of the Clovis Culture and extinction of animal species in North America

Apologies ... I'm North of the Boarder in Toronto and the connection isn't exactly spectacular.

[Dagda]

I'm confused. When you say "in days gone by..." do you mean on Planetos, or in the real world? Because while I get your point (I think) that "prince" can be synonymous with a gender-neutral term... I don't recall any gender-neutral use of the word "prince" in these books. Quite the opposite, in fact. Aemon's revelation is that it was precisely the masculine definition of the word "prince," as compared to "princess," that was misleading:

"No one ever looked for a girl. It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. ...[t]he error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, ...but now one and now the other..."

Or when you say "ruler," perhaps you mean "R'hllor...?" ( :devil: )

:agree:

And

:whip:

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Tales out of context always occur with in history when you have different peoples gathering and telling the stories at a later date. It is not implausible for cultural heros like the Celtic Arthur that showed up in a very culturally different time period to be echoed by Andal heros being transposed into a written Westeros history written by Andals. Putting them into the FM mythos would give them a footing in Westeros.

I see the dragonslayer tales coming from Essos with the Andals, also. Where dragons were used against men and a few dragons slain in recent history. Then passed down through the centuries in song and stories, and mixed in with other tales of Westeros' Age of Heroes.

Of course, the Age of Heroes would be filled with clan leaders and people of great valor who conquered other peoples or clans. Or killed a giant Kraken, carved a kraken chair, then the tales claimed he killed a Sea Dragon. Then later in history when the common tongue came about, we would get the words kings and queens etc. Like the King of Winter would be called, possibly, Magnar in the old tongue, and had more meaning than the simple 'king'. Basic stuff, I know. Thinking about the Thenns and their magnar, the king of winter may have been thought of as a god of winter.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I'm talking real world as in "put not your trust in princes", and drawing distinctions between princes of the church and princes of the earth.

Gotcha. And well, really, that's Martin's twist in a nutshell, isn't it? The word "dragon" being his stand-in for the divine ruler.

(A bit funny though, when the literal reading of the word gives you a magical creature, fire-made-flesh... and it's the "figurative" reading that brings you back to the human role.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Like the King of Winter would be called, possibly, Magnar in the old tongue, and had more meaning than the simple 'king'. Basic stuff, I know. Thinking about the Thenns and their magnar, the king of winter may have been thought of as a god of winter.

.

On one - metaphorical - level the King of Winter is simply an apple tree...

.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Of course, further complicating things, we have, for Season 4, Struan Rodger being credited not as Bloodraven, Lord Brynden, or The Last Greenseer, but rather as Three-Eyed Crow (er, Raven... stupid show, changing labels)

Adding source http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0734654/

And, no, BC, have not yet seen anything for Coldhands; did see something possibly interesting on the season's IMDB page, though: the role of "Savage" being played by Stuart Martin

IMDB source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2816136/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

Stuart Martin source: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3516668/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t24

[Melifeather]

Hang on .... just answering Ice a second ago triggered something. Could the Long Night have been as simple as a reference to the Younger Dryas? The evidence shows it as a short period lasting 70 to as long as 200 yrs, which would give in the need generations in Westeros, and it would lock the the timeline ( kinda ' ) into the Neolithic.

Can't be that simple, can it?

I'm sure it's inspired of it.

There was another quote that didn't get linked, but mentioned the Magnar of Thenn. I think GRRM was inspired by the Celtic word magos (Irish magh) which means a field or plain.

Edited to add: The name Dolorous Edd, while the word dolorous does mean "sorrowful", it also looks inspired by the greek historian Diodorus Siculus who wrote a universal history called Bibliotheca Historica that encompassed 40 books. It is separated into three main categories with the first six books being about mythic history, the destruction of Troy, ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia and up through early Greek history. The middle six recounted the Trojan War down to the death of Alexander the Great. The rest of the books are a series of Alexander's successors to the beginning of Julius Caeser's Gallic Wars. His account of gold minining in Nubia in eastern Egypt is one of the earliest extant texts on the topic, and describes in vivid detail the use of slave labor in terrible working conditions. His account may very well be GRRM's inspiration for the Valyrian slave mines.

[JNR]

But Maester Aemon's statement is still ambiguous, because - as I read it, anyway - he's pointing to a gendered translation of the word "dragon" as the equivalent of either "prince" or "princess" in the common tongue. The original word was not necessarily "prince/princess" - but could have simply been "dragon" in a non-gendered language.

:agree:

I think it was, and that's exactly what Aemon is saying. It was "dragon" and that word was translated into another language as "prince" -- with a masculine connotation -- for some reason.

However, a prophecy (being about a future event) might have originated at any point, by anybody, in any language.

For instance, imagine I am a prophet living six thousand years ago. I predate the Freehold by about a thousand years. Does the Valyrian language exist? Perhaps.

It is possible that I could prophesy in either Valyrian or a non-Valyrian language.

I could also prophesy the future existence of a political leader, call that person a "dragon," and/or do so in a gender-neutral way that is later translated into another language (which might or might not be Valyrian) as "prince."

All of the above is also true if I were a prophet who lived only 1100 years ago, in (say) Asshai, and spoke that language, and my prophecy was translated into Common Tongue (meaning Valyria and the Valyrian language isn't involved at all).

So I don't think we can conclude anything much more about the original language, translated language, Valyria, the Rhoynish, dragons, princes, etc., without knowing a lot more about what this prophecy says.

[JNR]

Perfectly true as to the context, but the fact remains that while explaining away a sticky question, GRRM has not so far followed through with any evidence of the kind that could so easily have been inserted into the World Book or into Leaf's account of early life in Westeros.

He gave us a long double row of appropriately curved ribs, each in the ballpark of 60-80 feet long, sitting on Old Wyk, along with a legend that they are a dragon's ribs, and the certain knowledge dragons can grow to be that big.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

OK here's maester Luwin. He doesn't give a date for the Pact at all, but does say that

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children...The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Leaving aside that business of "signing" which I take to be a slip of the tongue, that's straightforward enough. The Pact lasted for 4,000 years. But then he continues:

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea. The Andals were first..."

Now a case can be made for arguing that the Age of Heroes encompassed the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, but that's neither here nor there for as both Maester Luwin and the Hedge Knight introduction made clear the Pact ended with the coming of the Andals:

The Compact marked the beginning of the Age of Heroes, when the First Men and the children shared Westeros, and a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell. Other invaders came in turn. The Andals crossed the narrow sea in ships, and with iron and fire they swept across the kingdoms of the First Men, and drove the children from their forests, putting many of the weirwoods to the ax.

This is why dating the arrival of the Andals is so important because while Maester Luwin does not quote a date for the Pact he unambiguously states that it lasted for 4,000 years until the Andals started slaughtering the Singers and burning their weirwoods.

On the conventional timeline the Arryns arrived in the Vale 6,000 years ago. If we take that as gospel for the arrival of the Andals then it suggests the Pact was agreed 10,000 years ago, well before the Long Night. The very big problem there however is that Andals in the Vale are unlikely to have made much of an impact on the rest of Westeros. So here's Hoster Blackwood:

Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some masters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.

So then if we follow the True History and settle on 4,000 years ago and assume this means the main Andal invasion rather than the Arryns' toehold in the Vale, the 4,000 years of the Pact takes us back to the supposed date of the Long Night 8,000 years ago - hence the heresy that it was the Long Night that forced the First Men to cry Pax.

Moreover, if we take this further and look at the even more recent dates for the arrival of the Andals being offered in text, ranging from 3,000 years ago to just 1,000 years ago, then even settling as I suggested on a mean of 2,000 years ago then that seriously throws the traditional timeline way out.

Either the First Men and the Singers agreed their Pact after the Long Night, or the Long Night was nowhere like 8,000 years ago and the whole "history" of the Wall and the Watch is screwed.

Or you're possibly misinterpreting the text. It says that the Pact started 4,000 years of peace between the (first) men and the Children. That doesn't mean that the Andals arrived 4,000 years later. That just means that the First Men and the children were at peace for the Age of Heroes, which is the 4,000 years of peace after the signing of the Pact.

Let's look at the entire quote, where it's clear that the 4,000 years he's talking about is peace between the First Men and Children known as the Age of heroes.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

So then later he goes on to say:

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

That doesn't mean that the Pact only lasted 4,000 years, it means that the Age of Heroes lasted 4,000 years after the Pact. The Pact then lasted more years until the Andals invaded, but that was "many centuries" after the Age of Heroes, The Long Night, and the forging of the Seven Kingdoms.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

It does, because the point is that all Maester Luwin says is that the Pact lasted 4,000 years until the Andals came and broke it. That's why its important to establish from the True History or elsewhere, when the Andals actually turned up, because Maester Luwin is vague on this.

Old Nan speaks of the 100 kingdoms which existed at the time of the Long Night, the "birth" of the Seven Kingdoms implies a period of consolidation (and no doubt bloody consolidation) after the Long Night, which was probably far from complete and not in its present form when the Andals arrived and no doubt profitted from the anarchy - the feud between the Blackwoods and the Brackens being a good example.

That is not what he said. He said that the Age of Heroes lasted 4,000 years after the Pact was "signed". That doesn't mean the Pact only lasted for 4,000 years.

And one of the original Seven Kingdoms was the Neck, it wasn't until the Starks defeated the Marsh Kings that it became part of the North.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

He gave us a long double row of appropriately curved ribs, each in the ballpark of 60-80 feet long, sitting on Old Wyk, along with a legend that they are a dragon's ribs, and the certain knowledge dragons can grow to be that big.

Hah! I had posted earlier about dragonslayers and not connected to Naggas ribs. I had regular old fire dragons on the brain. Like people said earlier we could have dragons fly to Westeros and still not be a native species. Sea Dragons? If Nagga is a dragon and not a leviathan or something of the sort. But I think people found the bones as is. Probably uncovered by the Hammer. That or washed up on shore.

But I still think the dragonslayer tales came from essos. Except for the Grey King story, who lived a thousand years and all that. He just made a hall around some bones.

[JNR]

But I think people found the bones as is. Probably uncovered by the Hammer.

I could believe this, or a related idea: that the hammer washed a sea creature onto land, and when the water gradually receded, the creature was stranded and died.

I think it's fair to say that if Westeros had dragons at some very distant point in time, and I think it did, there weren't many... and they likely didn't last long. Just as with the Targaryens, whose dragons were dead and gone from the world only 150 years after the Conqueror took his realm.

There's a good reason for that.

[Phillip Frye]

IMO, the crown of the North symbolizes the joining of the Ironborn with the First Men.

The bronze circlet represents the first men, the black iron swords represent the ironborn.

The oath of the Reeds, probably dates back to when Greywater Watch was tied in with the Iron Islanders. Anyone else see the connection: Greywater watch? House Greyjoy?, House Greyiron?

Thus

I swear it by earth (First Men) and water (Ironborn)

I swear it by bronze (First Men) and iron (Ironborn)

I swear it by ice (First Men) and fire (Ironborn)

The seastone chair is described as a block of oily black stone carved into the shape of a kraken.

Now listen to this description of the outer walls of Moat Cailin:

The other place that basalt is mentioned is when Davos is brought before the Lord of Sweetsister:

Basically, (and I think this topic has been brought up before) I think the Iron Islands at one point encompassed the Neck and the Islands of the sisters, before the land was submerged when the Children called down their curse. I think this land was probably populated by Rhoynes (the real iron makers according to Illyrio) who predate Rhoynes who crossed with Nymeria along with the Andals. They seem to share the same black hair and black eyes of the salty Dornishmen. I think they joined with the First Men during the long night.

This is interesting in that the Iron Islands and the Sisters appear to worship the same gods despite being separated by the mainland of Westeros. We have speculated in the past that those gods were the original gods of the First Men, who continue to be worshiped on isolated islands were Weirwood trees could not take root. Thanks for making another connection through the basalt building materials.

It is interesting to connect basalt to the neck through Moat Cailan, which is extremely old and of undetermined origin although it appears that the Children of the Forest may have once resided there.

Basalt is a volcanic rock that often splits into columns or even hexagonal pieces (the Giant's Causeway in Ireland). It is associated with being old in that basalt is a very hard substance and people in the past, looking at the columnar formations, often thought that they were looking at the ruins made by ancient giants.

What connects all three of these areas together seems to be their adherence to very old ways of doing things. The Sisters and the Iron Islands worship the gods of the First Men from before the Pact. The Crannogmen seem to have a very close connection with the Children of the Forest and seems to follow the old ways from before the disappearance of the Children from Westeros south of the Wall. These ways are older than those followed by the rest of the North or the Andals or the Rhoynars. The Crannogmen, Sistermen, and the Ironmen have not forgotten the old ways. In fact, the Ironmen and Crannogmen are obsessed with them, while Lord Borrell makes reference to a lifestyle of luring ships onto the rocks that has supposedly been abandoned.

I don't think that these areas were connected by land, but they are remnant areas, where older ways of doing things are preserved. That is the reason that Martin uses the basalt theme to connect them. Historically, defeated peoples were pushed into marshes (the remnants of Harold Godwinson's army), mountains (the Basques), or islands (the Greeks still own all of the islands in the Aegean Sea, including ones right off of the coast of Turkey).

Thanks for catching those references, which solidifies the connection between these disparate "old places".

[Phillip Frye]

.

The timeline connection is interesting. But Maester Aemon's statement is still ambiguous, because - as I read it, anyway - he's pointing to a gendered translation of the word "dragon" as the equivalent of either "prince" or "princess" in the common tongue. The original word was not necessarily "prince/princess" - but could have simply been "dragon" in a non-gendered language. The translation into Valyrian could have imported a gender association... and not until the Targaryens assumed the Westerosi throne would the word "dragon" have become synonymous with "prince." At that point, the male gender could have been retained primarily on the basis of Valyrian grammar or on the basis of Westerosi patriarchal traditions.

ETA - Regardless, Aemon's point (I think) is that the prophecy should more accurately be understood as "The Dragon Who Was Promised" - so all these proofs you read around here about how it must be so-and-so because he's a prince - or it can't be other-guy, because he's not a prince... well, they're argued straight from that error that "crept in."

.

This is new way of looking at Maester Aemon's last insight. Martin keeps pointing out that the crazier Targaryen princes, especially Aerion Brightflame, think they are actually dragons. This makes sense if they believe that it is their destiny is to be the "Dragon Who Was Promised". It also makes Rhaegar look even more like a fruitcake, thinking that if he wasn't the promised dragon, he would make three of his own.

[Phillip Frye]

Given that the conversation isn't canon and there's no hint in the books of just how many sons Craster has fathered to read any significance into this one, at least so far as the number is concerned.

What may however be significant is the proud assertion by Craster that he has sons, which rather suggests a setting up for the Craster's sons revelation connected with that scene of Rast in the trailer.

I think that we are really stepping outside of canon if we assume that The Craster left behind a pregnant daughter/widow/sister-wife. I'm sticking with Rast, Jr. as the identity of the baby. I think the trouble really gets going when the Others find out that Rast is trying to pay the Tithe to Hell with false coin (a non-Craster/Stark fathered child).

[Phillip Frye]

However, in light of The Craster's one hundred sons, I hereby christen Heresy 100 as the Monster Thread.

[Melifeather]

Or you're possibly misinterpreting the text. It says that the Pact started 4,000 years of peace between the (first) men and the Children. That doesn't mean that the Andals arrived 4,000 years later. That just means that the First Men and the children were at peace for the Age of Heroes, which is the 4,000 years of peace after the signing of the Pact.

Let's look at the entire quote, where it's clear that the 4,000 years he's talking about is peace between the First Men and Children known as the Age of heroes.

So then later he goes on to say:

That doesn't mean that the Pact only lasted 4,000 years, it means that the Age of Heroes lasted 4,000 years after the Pact. The Pact then lasted more years until the Andals invaded, but that was "many centuries" after the Age of Heroes, The Long Night, and the forging of the Seven Kingdoms.

Hmmm, I would say that the Pact started 4000 years of friendship between the Children and First Men. During those 4000 years of friendship, the Age of Heroes happens as well as the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, which would mean that the Age of Heroes was less than 4000 years. We're told the Long Night lasted a generation, and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms is pretty vague, but the only thing that lasted 4000 years was the friendship.

However, in light of The Craster's one hundred sons, I hereby christen Heresy 100 as the Monster Thread.

According to the HBO tv show, Gilly's son was the 99th, but we could still have a Monster Thread! I think the 101 is going to be about the crows, which by the way I'm wondering if crows are people trying to be ravens? Is that the difference?