HERESY 100

[Mithras]

The CotF used to give obsidian weapons to the NW every year. Obsidian is not a rare substance. Why did the NW have to rely on the CotF? Sam's dagger killed Ser Puddles but is it because it was blessed by the CotF? When the obsidian mined from Dragonstone upon Stanis' order comes to the Wall and the Others attack, we can see the truth of it. If obsidian needs blessing by the CotF, the NW may rue it.

[Lord Ravenstark]

There are a couple of points to be made here, first although the Andals get the blame its unlikely that the Singers would draw a distinction between two sets of white-eyes; they are all "men". Secondly, although the Andals serve as convenient scapegoats, they can only have carried through their killing and burning with at the very least the passive assistance of the First Men. We know that human sacrifice was involved in keeping the Old Gods so its entirely possible that large numbers of First Men sided with the Andals in ridding themselves of the Singers.

Then there's the question of the North. We're told that the North held out against the Andals, yet there too the Singers are gone. The Nights King story may be a parable of their expulsion from the North or they may simply have decided to remove themselves all the way north of the Wall without waiting for the potential arrival of mobs with axes, chainsaws and burning torches.

Either way there's a serious breach here, hence the business of the Pact lasting until the Andals came.

Oldtown.

[redriver]

@Black Crow

Before the latest iteration of this thread fades away may I take this opportunity to congratulate you on Heresy 100?I'm way too lazy to keep a single thread going,but 100 threads?They have to be tended morning and evening.

And the level of work you've put into this project is simply incredible.

More power to your elbow,and may they continue as long as you wish....

[King of Winters]

The CotF used to give obsidian weapons to the NW every year. Obsidian is not a rare substance. Why did the NW have to rely on the CotF? Sam's dagger killed Ser Puddles but is it because it was blessed by the CotF? When the obsidian mined from Dragonstone upon Stanis' order comes to the Wall and the Others attack, we can see the truth of it. If obsidian needs blessing by the CotF, the NW may rue it.

It's a bit of a coincidence that the man who has come all the way North to help the NW against the WW has a stockpile of Dragonglass. I think there must be more to it than that.

[Tyryan Lannister]

@Black Crow

Before the latest iteration of this thread fades away may I take this opportunity to congratulate you on Heresy 100.I'm way too lazy to keep a single thread going,but 100 threads?They have to be tended morning and evening.

And the level of work you've put into this work is simply incredible.

More power to your elbow,and may they continue as long as you wish....

:commie: :commie: :commie:

[Urrax2]

... We know that human sacrifice was involved in keeping the Old Gods ...

We do? Source?

[nanother]

"The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”
Bran’s fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. “But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said.”
“Here, they are,” said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth. “North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races.”
Maester Luwin sighed. “Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains. The Starks have treated you more gently than you deserve. It is unkind to repay them for their kindness by filling the boys’ heads with folly.”
“Tell me where they went,” Bran said. “I want to know.”
“Me too,” Rickon echoed.
“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.
“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—”
Summer began to howl.

So the children fled North, and ... somehow slowly disappeared? Possibly. Maybe nothing happened and for simply just not being seen for thousands of years they were thought extinct. But this exchange sounds more like: no, they're extinct because something happened to them.

[nanother]

That reminds me of Gendel's Children again. In Jon's version of the story, they're slain. In Ygritte's they escaped, kind of. And Bran associates them with the CotF cave.

That's also the wildling incursion that could have happened roughly at the time of the Andal invasion according to in-book timelines. Unfortunately neither Jon nor Ygritte give the slightest hint that CotF might be involved.

[Black Crow]

We do? Source?

World Book:

The gods the children worshiped were the nameless ones that would one day be the gods of the First Men the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. It was the children who carved the weirwoods with faces, perhaps to give eyes to their gods so that they might watch their worshipers at their devotions. Others, with little evidence, claim that the greenseers the wise men of the children were able to see through the eyes of the carved weirwoods. The supposed proof is the fact that the First Men themselves believed this, and that it was their fear of the weirwoods spying upon them that drove them to cut down many of the carved trees and weirwood groves, to deny the children such an advantage. Yet the First Men were less learned than we are now, and credited things that their descendants today do not believe; consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from the Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

...and Bran's weirwood vision

[JNR]

World Book:

The gods the children worshiped were the nameless ones that would one day be the gods of the First Men the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones. It was the children who carved the weirwoods with faces, perhaps to give eyes to their gods so that they might watch their worshipers at their devotions. Others, with little evidence, claim that the greenseers the wise men of the children were able to see through the eyes of the carved weirwoods. The supposed proof is the fact that the First Men themselves believed this, and that it was their fear of the weirwoods spying upon them that drove them to cut down many of the carved trees and weirwood groves, to deny the children such an advantage. Yet the First Men were less learned than we are now, and credited things that their descendants today do not believe; consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from the Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

...and Bran's weirwood vision

Notice there is no reference, here or anywhere, to the CotF conducting such events.

[Black Crow]

The CotF used to give obsidian weapons to the NW every year. Obsidian is not a rare substance. Why did the NW have to rely on the CotF? Sam's dagger killed Ser Puddles but is it because it was blessed by the CotF? When the obsidian mined from Dragonstone upon Stanis' order comes to the Wall and the Others attack, we can see the truth of it. If obsidian needs blessing by the CotF, the NW may rue it.

The heresy is that they didn't. The Singers used dragonglass not because it was rare or a specific against the white walkers, but simply because they worked no metal. They used dragonglass to kill men and the suggestion is that the 100 pieces were a symbolic gift arising out of the Pact and corresponding to each of the 100 kingdoms of men.

[Black Crow]

Notice there is no reference, here or anywhere, to the CotF conducting such events.

Indeed, but clearly Men felt impelled for some reason to offer up a blood sacrifice to the Singers.

[King of Winters]

Indeed, but clearly Men felt impelled for some reason to offer up a blood sacrifice to the Singers.

What if the Singers told Men to practice blood sacrifices for some reason they had maybe to do with the WW?

[JNR]

Indeed, but clearly Men felt impelled for some reason to offer up a blood sacrifice to the Singers.

So it seems. I'm just hinting that Urrax has this in mind when he objects to

We know that human sacrifice was involved in keeping the Old Gods

All we really know is that some men seem to have been involved in the above.

"All the First Men conducted human sacrifice in keeping the Old Gods" would be quite a stretch, if someone were to say it. That would be a staggering amount of human sacrifice, for many thousands of years, all over Westeros.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Some... all.. seems like semantics. I thought the scene at Whitetree also heavily hinted at human sacrifice. I don't think there is any evidence that there was any sort of regular lottery were the losers were sacrificed. It seems that if someone was sentenced to death for a crime, or maybe even on their deathbed from old age, or suffered some illness... they'd be "given" to the Old Gods just as Asha wants for Theon. They might be closer to mercy killings than sacrifices, but they are still an offering to the gods of sort.

[Melifeather]

That reminds me of Gendel's Children again. In Jon's version of the story, they're slain. In Ygritte's they escaped, kind of. And Bran associates them with the CotF cave.

That's also the wildling incursion that could have happened roughly at the time of the Andal invasion according to in-book timelines. Unfortunately neither Jon nor Ygritte give the slightest hint that CotF might be involved.

There is a Grendel in literature prior to the one in GRRM’s works, and Tolkien wrote about Grendel as well. Grendel's story is part of an Anglo-Saxon poem titled Beowulf (AD 700-1000) contained in the Nowell Codex.

Grendel is usually depicted as a monster or a Giant although the text never directly describes his appearance. In most interpretations he is briefly referred to as a Sceadugenga, which means “shadow walker” or “night goer” given that he is repeatedly described to be in the shroud of darkness. In more modern interpretations Sceadugengan was meant to be a race of undead shapeshifters of which Grendel was a member.

Grendel and his mother are described as descendants of the Biblical Cain (credited as the first murderer), and that they eat humans.

The poem implies that Grendel may not be human, may be a berserker, or even a two-legged dragon. Here are a few lines from the poem:

…the other, warped

in the shape of a man, moves beyond the pale

bigger than any man, an unnatural birth

called Grendel by the country people

in former days.

Every nail, claw-scale and spur, every spike

and welt on the hand of that heathen brute

was like barbed steel. Everybody said

there was no honed iron hard enough

to pierce him through, no time proofed blade

that could cut his brutal blood caked claw.

[nanother]

There is a Grendel in literature prior to the one in GRRM’s works, and Tolkien wrote about Grendel as well. Grendel's story is part of an Anglo-Saxon poem titled Beowulf (AD 700-1000) contained in the Nowell Codex.

You are aware that in GRRM it's Gendel, right? In any case, the similarity to Grendel is surely no coincidence, thanks for pointing that out!

[Black Crow]

So it seems. I'm just hinting that Urrax has this in mind when he objects to

All we really know is that some men seem to have been involved in the above.

"All the First Men conducted human sacrifice in keeping the Old Gods" would be quite a stretch, if someone were to say it. That would be a staggering amount of human sacrifice, for many thousands of years, all over Westeros.

Oh I don't think we're in to offering up a virgin every Sunday but it may still have been resented and I'm minful also of the screaming faces on a couple of the trees north of Castle Black. Why they should be screaming we obviously don't know but its a long way from a wise and benevolent guadian figure.

[Urrax2]

Notice there is no reference, here or anywhere, to the CotF conducting such events.

Indeed, from the World Book excerpt it could well have been limited to the humans of White Harbor.

And Bran's vision could as easily be an execution as be a sacrifice. (And as pointed out by TNW, executions might well take a sacrificial form.)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

We've discussed before that "blood" and/or blood-magic seem to be common denominators in the dragon and direwolf family connections - both the "blood of the dragon" and the "wolf blood" are used as short-hand for family characteristics in this story.

Near the end of H100, I posted a reply to a question by Paper Waver that led in the direction of further possible links between dragons and direwolves... but that line of discussion was put in hold while we considered other topics.

So since it seems relevant again, I'm reporting those comments here for the sake of discussion:

I don't follow Heretic threads continuosly. I just want to ask whether the following subject has been discussed before:

No one ever looked for a girl, he said. It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above Kings Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

It appears that tPtwP prophecy was translated to Valyrian 1000 years ago. Valyrian Freehold had no princes or princesses. There is another significant event happened in close proximity. Valyrians defeated thge Rhoynish Empire. Nymeria fled to Dorne. Note that Valyrians defeated the Old Ghiscari empire 5000 years ago and they waited 4000 years to finish of the Rhoynar. Does not that look suspicious? And this translation of the prophecy and introduction of tPtwP to the Valyrians? Rhoynars have the princes/princesses. So did the Valyrians thought Rhoynar bloodline was necessary for the appearance of tPtwP?

This notion makes the current story having roots back to thousands of years. The first union of Dornish/Rhoynish blood and Valyrian blood was Daeron II and Myriah Martell. And the second one was Rhaegar-Elia. Do Targaryens have a secret family agenda?

.

The timeline connection is interesting. But Maester Aemon's statement is still ambiguous, because - as I read it, anyway - he's pointing to a gendered translation of the word "dragon" as the equivalent of either "prince" or "princess" in the common tongue. The original word was not necessarily "prince/princess" - but could have simply been "dragon" in a non-gendered language. The translation into Valyrian could have imported a gender association... and not until the Targaryens assumed the Westerosi throne would the word "dragon" have become synonymous with "prince." At that point, the male gender could have been retained primarily on the basis of Valyrian grammar or on the basis of Westerosi patriarchal traditions.

ETA - Regardless, Aemon's point (I think) is that the prophecy should more accurately be understood as "The Dragon Who Was Promised" - so all these proofs you read around here about how it must be so-and-so because he's a prince - or it can't be other-guy, because he's not a prince... well, they're argued straight from that error that "crept in."

So, in light of this "translational error," I reiterate my suggestion that we should consider rephrasing the prophecy first referred to as the "Prince that was Promised," in order to account for some possible connections.

First, given Maester Aemon's observation about translational issues discussed above, I suggest we substitute the word "Dragon" for "Prince." I think we have some evidence that doing so makes sense.

A second change worth considering, I believe, is a substitution of the word "Pact" for "Promise." That may feel like more of a stretch, because there is less evidence in-story to support a direct connection between the two words. But in this prophetic context, I would argue that the word "promise" implies a commitment or agreement by some agency of fate, some higher power (or "old power." In a Judeo-Christian context, this would look very similar to the concept of "Covenant." And "covenant" was also a significant issue for other religious and mythological traditions - particularly for Mithraism and related Vedic / Avestan cultures. Those traditions already look like sources of inspiration for aspects of Martin's story, and the nearest in-story equivalent of "covenant" that we've encountered so far is the word Pact.

The Pact made by the First Men is said to have been an agreement with the COTF. But as we know, the COTF believe that eventually - at the end of their long lives, if not before - they become one with the old gods represented by the weirwood. And since that time, we know that humans too have been selected for union with the trees as greenseers. So it may not be that much of a push to believing that men made this Pact, ultimately, with the old gods themselves.

The Targaryens who know of this "Prince/Dragon" prophecy appear to connect it in some way with blood - the "blood of the dragon," or the "blood" of their House. Given the maegi work of Mirri Maz Duur, and the fact that "across the years Brandon Stark could taste the blood" of First Men human sacrifice through the weir-net, we've seen from the story thus far is that blood magic and the Pact both appear to have been means of calling on the old powers (old gods) to bargain with humans.

So... that gets us from the "Prince that was Promised" to, perhaps, the "Pact Dragon."

What do you think? Is that too much of a stretch, at this point?