Thoughts on Sansa's Future...

[SpringKing]

Sam's "What had it all been for? No happy choices, no happy endings" thoroughly applies to Sansa:

• No happy choice at the Trident between Joff or Arya
  
• No happy choice between Ned's plan for his daughter's to leave KL or going to Cersei
  
• No happy choice between Ned's death or having him confess that Joff was the rightful king
  
• No choice in Ned's death
  
• No happy choice between pushing Joff off the wall and being killed herself
  
• No happy choice between being courteous to Joff or suffering the consequences
  
• No happy choice between leaving with the Hound or staying in KL
  
• No happy choice between telling the Tyrell ladies the truth about Joff or not
  
• No happy choice between marrying Tyrion or Lancel
  
• No happy choice between fleeing with Dontos or staying
  
• No choice in Dontos death
  
• No happy choice in accompanying LF to the Vale
  
• No happy choice in Marillion's attempted rape
  
• No happy choice between changing her identity to Alayne or not
  
• No choice in Lysa's death
  
• No happy choice in lying about Lysa's murder
  
• No choice in LF's arranged marriage with Harry
  

If Sam is right, it seems that Sansa will not see a happy ending.

"A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough... and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.”

[Fire Eater]

Well, I think you're giving Lady Olenna WAY too much credit, suggesting she would confess to save Sansa.

Lady Olenna may be clever, but that doesn't make her heartless.

What I figure happens, is that Sansa never goes back to KL, (and there might not BE a KL much longer,) but either her innocence is made public some other way, (evidence in LF's possession perhaps?) or it becomes irrelevant as the Lannister's fall from power whether she killed a proclaimed 'ursurper' or not. I mean if/when Tyrion gets back to KL with Dany in tow, no one's going to be charging him, so Sansa will be off the hook as well.

I don't see Tyrion and Dany taking KL, and I don't think the Mad Mouse is at the Eyrie for nothing. I think he will be how Cersei learns Sansa is in KL. I don't know the point of a guy looking for Sansa at the Eyrie without it being made known that Sansa is there.

I think Cersei will send men to take Sansa back to KL, and knowing the kind of men who hang around her, they likely won't treat Robert well. They could knock him aside, and have Robert realize for the first time how weak he actually is. They won't give him special treatment for being Lord of the Eyrie. And given Cersei has the anti-Midas touch, everything she does digs her deeper into her grave, I think this action will result in Robert joining Dany, as Tyrion and Dany could promise Robert to bring back Sansa.

[Winnief]

I don't see Tyrion and Dany taking KL, and I don't think the Mad Mouse is at the Eyrie for nothing. I think he will be how Cersei learns Sansa is in KL. I don't know the point of a guy looking for Sansa at the Eyrie without it being made known that Sansa is there.

I thought the Mouse was Varys's agent not Cersei's.

[RedElder]

If Olenna confesses, Margaery would appear to be complicit. Given that she poisoned Joffrey to protect her granddaughter, she'll take that secret to her grave.

Yes, the Mad Mouse is Varys's agent. What use he'll make of MM's information is anybody's guess... Can't wait to see!

[Fire Eater]

I thought the Mouse was Varys's agent not Cersei's.

Informing Cersei of Sansa's whereabouts would inevitably set the Eyrie and that Vale against the Lannister/Tyrell regime.

If Olenna confesses, Margaery would appear to be complicit. Given that she poisoned Joffrey to protect her granddaughter, she'll take that secret to her grave.

Olenna would state that Margaery never knew. It is easier to hide a plot if fewer people know about it. Besides, I think Cersei would still need Margaery as hostage to ensure the Tyrells' loyalty. Do you think Olenna would let a 14 year-old girl die for a crime she herself committed?

[Winnief]

Yes, the Mad Mouse is Varys's agent. What use he'll make of MM's information is anybody's guess... Can't wait to see!

:agree:

I am sure on one thing though...whatever Varys's plan is, he has no intention of letting LF put his plan into action to use Sansa as the key to three kingdoms.

Maybe Varys wants Sansa for Aegon, or maybe something else...maybe he'll even be in favor of sending Sansa back up North...but he ain't gonna let LF keep such a valuable trump card.

[opalalchemy]

Sansa as Queen or Queen regent of the North is my ideal ending for her story arc. I think it would be a fabulous inversion of the classic princess who dreamed of knights to become a virgin queen who rules under her own power instead of her husbands.

While many would point to Lady's death as showing Sansa's future lying away from the North, I would contrarily say that Lady's death is proof that her future lies in Winterfell. Why? Because the direwolves are essentially extensions of the Stark children, their other halves, and Lady is the only wolf that (perhaps arguably) never left the North. Lady died at the Trident just south of the Neck and Ned sent Lady's bones back to the North to be buried on Winterfell's grounds and I can't help but think of the crypts where the bones of the old Kings of Winter are buried. As many on the thread have said, there is simply too much focus in Sansa's story arc of politics and rulership for her to be wasted in a role that is any less than a queen or great lady. And with the Winterfell snow castle and Sansa's own thoughts "Im stronger within the walls of Winterfell", where Lady is, I would be greatly disappointed if GRRM didn't have Sansa end up there at the end.

As for Harrenhal, I find the possibility highly unlikely. While she may have a claim through Littlefinger, the Whents, and possible foreshadowing when she is described as a she-wolf with bat wings, if any Stark is to end up with Harrenhal I think it would be Arya. 1. Arya has actually spent a significant amount of time at

Harrenhal. 2. Both are associated strongly with death, curses, and vengeance. 3. It would be poetic for Arya, who looks just like Lyanna, to become its Lady. Remember that Lyanna was crowned QoLaB during the false spring and it is theorized that she was also the KotLT. It would be far more poetic for Arya to become its Lady than Sansa, assuming Arya lives and even wants the cursed place after the hell she experienced there. And with Sansa's (secondary) connections to Harrenhal I could very well see Queen Sansa installing her sister there.

As for Sansa skin changing I have ambivalent feelings. If she does end up going inside of birds I foresee her arc following in the footsteps of Littlefinger, Varys, or perhaps Bloodraven before he took the black. This direction makes it less likely for Sansa to be a queen in her own right and instead the power behind the throne. As I have already shown a preference for Sansa as queen perhaps I would be disappointed but I have no doubt GRRM would make this scenario just as satisfying.

No matter what direction Sansa's arc takes, perhaps the one thing I am convinced of is that Sansa will not be married at the end of the series. She may be a widow, or still a maiden, she may end up in a forbidden, unrequited romance with a certain gravedigger, or perhaps mother to a pack of bastards she claims to be fathered by wolves, but officially and politically I predict she will be single. Readers who want to see her happy are eager to pair her off with a worthy husband who she has some say in choosing, but there is just as much, if not more, power and agency in choosing not to marry. One would need only look at Elizabeth I. Would Sansa be happiest in a marriage? Perhaps. But a large chunk of her character development is devoted to her learning to use her inner strength to create her own future and means of agency. In a world such as Westeros where men have the power it would be a waste for her to have gone through all that hardship and change only for her to end up married (again) and the subject of her husbands will.

[Winnief]

No matter what direction Sansa's arc takes, perhaps the one thing I am convinced of is that Sansa will not be married at the end of the series. She may be a widow, or still a maiden, she may end up in a forbidden, unrequited romance with a certain gravedigger, or perhaps mother to a pack of bastards she claims to be fathered by wolves, but officially and politically I predict she will be single. Readers who want to see her happy are eager to pair her off with a worthy husband who she has some say in choosing, but there is just as much, if not more, power and agency in choosing not to marry. One would need only look at Elizabeth I. Would Sansa be happiest in a marriage? Perhaps. But a large chunk of her character development is devoted to her learning to use her inner strength to create her own future and means of agency. In a world such as Westeros where men have the power it would be a waste for her to have gone through all that hardship and change only for her to end up married (again) and the subject of her husbands will.

Interesting theory. It certainly would be subverting our expectations for Sansa-and I do like the idea of Sansa having children, "Fathered by wolves."

[Newstar]

If Sam is right, it seems that Sansa will not see a happy ending.

Probably not. "There are no happy endings," as Sam said, and Sansa's unlikely to be exempt from that. GRRM doesn't seem particularly fond of her character, either--she's no Arya or Tyrion--so I doubt she'll warrant any kind of special treatment in terms of her ultimate fate.

Could shut up those haters. That is for sure. :commie:

Because of course GRRM writes his character arcs with no other end in mind than "shutting up the haters." :D

[Fire Eater]

Interesting theory. It certainly would be subverting our expectations for Sansa-and I do like the idea of Sansa having children, "Fathered by wolves."

Subverting expectations yes. I think Sansa will be the one ending up a lifelong bachelorette ruling in her own name while Arya will be the one who ends up marrying a king's/Robert's son, Gendry, and likely run his castle. Gendry lacks a lord's education while Arya may run SE given she can run a household with a head for sums, and hear cases and deal with lords thanks to her training as a human lie detector.

[opalalchemy]

Subverting expectations yes. I think Sansa will be the one ending up a lifelong bachelorette ruling in her own name while Arya will be the one who ends up marrying a king's/Robert's son, Gendry, and likely run his castle. Gendry lacks a lord's education while Arya may run SE given she can run a household with a head for sums, and hear cases and deal with lords thanks to her training as a human lie detector.

I quite like the idea of Arya married and Sansa forever single. It's ironic and bittersweet for the Stark sisters to end up happy, or on the way to becoming happy, living the opposite dream they started out with. And yes, I do believe the remaining Starks will end up somewhat happy. While I don't prescribe to the Arya/Gendry ship, or indeed Arya with anyone, it would be an intriguing turn. Arya has spent far too much of her page time functioning as an asexual character due to her young age, interests, and emotional trauma for me to see her as a wife and eventual mother. The only possible foreshadowing I could see for this is the acorn dress, symbolizing fertility and growth, and the FM mentioning women rarely join their order because they are meant to bring life. Perhaps this will change in the last two books as Arya enters puberty, we'll see.

[opalalchemy]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I completely don't understand why people like the idea of Jaime saving Sansa and her willingly going with him. Yes, Jamie has improved some but he's still a Lannister and Sansa, unlike us, is not privy to his inner thoughts about redeeming his honor. She's more likely to throw him out the moon door than allow him to save her after everything the Lannisters have put her and her family through.

ETA: It would be ironic. Sansa being rescued by someone she'd rather leave her alone.

[Fire Eater]

I quite like the idea of Arya married and Sansa forever single. It's ironic and bittersweet for the Stark sisters to end up happy, or on the way to becoming happy, living the opposite dream they started out with. And yes, I do believe the remaining Starks will end up somewhat happy. While I don't prescribe to the Arya/Gendry ship, or indeed Arya with anyone, it would be an intriguing turn. Arya has spent far too much of her page time functioning as an asexual character due to her young age, interests, and emotional trauma for me to see her as a wife and eventual mother. The only possible foreshadowing I could see for this is the acorn dress, symbolizing fertility and growth, and the FM mentioning women rarely join their order because they are meant to bring life. Perhaps this will change in the last two books as Arya enters puberty, we'll see.

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other . . . if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

Jaime is talking about Sansa and Arya.Yet if we pay attention, Sansa is the one who has just been wed to Tyrion, and Arya is training to be a FM and losing her identity. Arya seems to have something with a burly blacksmith, Gendry.

[opalalchemy]

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other . . . if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

Jaime is talking about Sansa and Arya.Yet if we pay attention, Sansa is the one who has just been wed to Tyrion, and Arya is training to be a FM and losing her identity. Arya seems to have something with a burly blacksmith, Gendry.

Ooh, I forgot about that! Good catch :D Still not convinced, but its a step in the right direction.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jamie was talking to his hostage and lying to him.

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other . . . if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall." "The gods are good," his hostage said, uncertainly. You go on believing that. Jamie let Honor feel his spurs.

Jamie was talking about Sansa and from ASoS he knew "Arya" was being sent North to marry Ramsay Bolton. He knew that Arya was fake and told Brienne not to go after her. He, like other Lannisters believe Arya has long been killed. He's not talking about the real Arya.

This is also from a Jamie ASoS PoV:

"The real Arya Stark was buried in some unmarked grave in Flea Bottom in all likelihood. With her brothers dead, and both parents, who would dare name this one a fraud?"

ETA: Even if one relates that quote to Arya while she is with the FM the KM asked her if she wanted to marry an honest apprentice boy which is what burly blacksmith Gendry was and she said no.

Besides, Arya's journey has proven that being a commoner does not prevent you from being a target. You don't matter so you're not a valuable hostage who needs to be taken care of and kept alive. You're expendable. She also knows that they are the ones who feel the brunt of the war. Jamie is a privileged noble who has no idea nor does he care about this.

He doesn't know what it's like to not have his Lannister comforts and have the quality of his life and children (if he actually loved and raised them) and partner's go down exponentially. Mycah was Arya's first lesson as to how little they matter to nobles.

Furthermore I don't get the idea of why Arya who is someone who has repeatedly expressed her lack of desire and unhappiness with having to be a lady would be happy to be lady of SE which is also a place she's never been to or has shown interest in.

Unless one thinks she is someone who is willing to completely rearrange her entire life for Gendry when he has already shown that he wouldn't do the same for her. It's completely OOC. There's also the fact that as the series progresses the less she thinks about him. He didn't come up at all in ADWD.

As for the acorn dress Arya hated it and it was also ruined.

On Harrenhal I fail to see why she'd want a place that has some of the most terrible memories for her. Again, she does not want to be a lady anyways. Sansa or some other person can have it. It doesn't have a good track record with those who run the place either.

[opalalchemy]

Jamie was talking to his hostage and lying to him.

Jamie was talking about Sansa and from ASoS he knew "Arya" was being sent North to marry Ramsay Bolton. He knew that Arya was fake and told Brienne not to go after her. He, like other Lannisters believe Arya has long been killed. He's not talking about the real Arya.

This is also from a Jamie ASoS PoV:

ETA: Even if one relates that quote to Arya while she is with the FM the KM asked her if she wanted to marry an honest apprentice boy which is what burly blacksmith Gendry was and she said no.

Besides, Arya's journey has proven that being a commoner does not prevent you from being a target. You don't matter so you're not a valuable hostage who needs to be taken care of and kept alive. You're expendable. She also knows that they are the ones who feel the brunt of the war. Jamie is a privileged noble who has no idea nor does he care about this.

He doesn't know what it's like to not have his Lannister comforts and have the quality of his life and children (if he actually loved and raised them) and partner's go down exponentially. Mycah was Arya's first lesson as to how little they matter to nobles.

Furthermore I don't get the idea of why Arya who is someone who has repeatedly expressed her desire and unhappiness with having to be a lady would be happy to be lady of SE which is also a place she's never been to or has shown interest in.

Unless you think she is someone who is willing to be completely reaarrange her entire life for Gendry when he has already shown that he wouldn't do the same for her. It's completely OOC. & we saw with Lynesse that "love" doesn't overcome that. Arya and Gendry aren't even in love.

As for the acorn dress Arya hated it and it was also ruined.

On Harrenhal I fail to see why she'd want a place that has some of the most terrible memories for her. Again, she does not want to be a lady anyways. Sansa or some other person can have it. It doesn't have a good track record with those who run the place either.

You just listed most of the reasons I don't ship Arya with anyone. It just doesn't mesh with her and her arc.

As for Harrenhal, I listed some of the reasons it would make more sense for Arya rather than Sansa from a purely literary point of view. I suppose I didn't explain my meaning well enough. From the characters' viewpoints it makes no sense for Arya or Sansa to one day have Harrenhal, and I merely wanted to point out that if it made no sense for Arya to one day be seated at Harrenhal despite literary parallels and (vagueish) symbolism it made even less sense for Sansa. I've read some theories recently that have tries to sell Harrenhal as a potential future for Sansa and it was my sloppy attempt at a rebuttal.

I can one day see Arya being a lady of some holdfast, but I use the word lady in the loosest of senses and imagine her more acting the role of a lord. I find this unlikely, I don't think Arya will ever be one to "settle down" after what she's been through, but its a long shot at happiness and that girl could use some.

[Mithras]

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other . . . if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

Jaime is talking about Sansa and Arya.Yet if we pay attention, Sansa is the one who has just been wed to Tyrion, and Arya is training to be a FM and losing her identity. Arya seems to have something with a burly blacksmith, Gendry.

But the gods are seldom good :rolleyes:

Arya is definitely not forgetting her Starkness. So she will neither marry Hot Pie nor Gendry.

ETA:

“Your Grace,” Ned Stark said, “we must talk…”

Robert pressed his fingertips against his temples. “I am sick unto death of talk. On the morrow I’m going to the kingswood to hunt. Whatever you have to say can wait until I return.”

“If the gods are good, I shall not be here on your return. You commanded me to return to Winterfell, remember?”

Robert stood up, grasping one of the bedposts to steady himself. “The gods are seldom good, Ned. Here, this is yours.” He pulled the heavy silver hand clasp from a pocket in the lining of his cloak and tossed it on the bed. “Like it or not, you are my Hand, damn you. I forbid you to leave.”

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he’d found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

“You are not wrong,” Jon said. “I do not know. And if the gods are good, I never will.”

“The gods are seldom good, Jon Snow.” Tormund nodded toward the sky.

[ARYa_Nym]

You just listed most of the reasons I don't ship Arya with anyone. It just doesn't mesh with her and her arc.

As for Harrenhal, I listed some of the reasons it would make more sense for Arya rather than Sansa from a purely literary point of view. I suppose I didn't explain my meaning well enough. From the characters' viewpoints it makes no sense for Arya or Sansa to one day have Harrenhal, and I merely wanted to point out that if it made no sense for Arya to one day be seated at Harrenhal despite literary parallels and (vagueish) symbolism it made even less sense for Sansa. I've read some theories recently that have tries to sell Harrenhal as a potential future for Sansa and it was my sloppy attempt at a rebuttal.

I can one day see Arya being a lady of some holdfast, but I use the word lady in the loosest of senses and imagine her more acting the role of a lord. I find this unlikely, I don't think Arya will ever be one to "settle down" after what she's been through, but its a long shot at happiness and that girl could use some.

My thing is why would that make her happy when she has constantly said she does not want to do this? There are plenty of ladies and lords who have settled down and yet they aren't happy.

Another thing is that GRRM gets credited for subverting tropes more than he actually does it.

In the case of Arya the tomboy in which puberty "forces her" to realize she needs and wants a male to complete her isn't anything new so I don't think he would be subverting much. She all of sudden transforms and starts behaving like a "normal" heterosexual girl who leaves her previous "faulty" nature to her child like years is quite popular. I also think it would be very corny and Harry Potter ish to pair off companions. I feel the same about Sansa getting her wish to name her children after loved ones.

Anyways, on Harrenhal I don't think it's a prize anyways given its current condition and the fact that the curse seems to be true.

[WierWood Wolf]

If there is one thing I am very very confident in is Sansa being the one who will reconquest Winterfell and rebuild it. Because not only is she in the perfect place a Stark-Tully can be (the vale is a realm where both Starks and Tullys are well respected), but even though she isn't close to Winterfell she is the closest to the checkpoints especially that of Riverlands. Since both Edmure, Roslin and his heir are in captive she would, as the only known living Stark in the South, become the de facto head of the houses Tully and Stark and possibly get the Riverlands rise up for her and strengthen the chance of reclaiming Winterfell and bringing justice (Boltons and Littlefinger). Sansa is going North. I am perfectly sure about this, her narrative is heavily foreshadowing that, but staying there I am not so sure of. You have no idea how I much I want Sansa as Queen in the North. I have totally nothing against Rickon. I do wish the best for the kiddo, but honestly I do hesitate to give a wildcard (that is what he is) the same amount of importance as an Main POV character who has 24 chapters, had a tremendous amount of character development and whose narrative has been about politics and ruling. Sansa as Queen in the North would be far far more satisfying. And since GRRM wants to subvert medieval fantasy tropes Sansa as queen would make more sense. Could shut up those haters. That is for sure. :commie:

I see BRAN rebuilding Winterfell. Bran the Builder anyone? Maybe Sansa funds the project with LF money. Now that would be a B) cool Dream of Spring.

ETA: money she gets after LF dies.

[opalalchemy]

In the interest of not derailing the thread I'll respond to your other points in pm when I have time later.

Another thing is that GRRM gets credited for subverting tropes more than he actually does it.

.

I think he gets credited with this so often because his characters are so complex and well developed that it is almost a natural progression of a characters' story arc for traditional tropes to be subverted, purposely or otherwise. It would be perfectly understandable and IC for a character like Sansa, who has been bartered and sold across the board for her title, to rather not marry after all is said and done and the likelihood of Sansa having the ability to make this choice if she survives the series I think is quite high given the current projection of her story arc. Tropes are categories that are used as a lens to classify characters and their actions and GRRM's characters are so close to the complexity of RL people, who never neatly fit into the categories and stereotypes we want them to, that trope subversion is almost inevitable. Would it be just as good a story if Sansa did indeed end up a classic princess and happy for it? Probably. But given how "realistic" GRRM likes to be I find it unlikely.