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General Prince Stubbumgwu

R+L = J v 73

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PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS. THANK YOU.

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

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Indeed we are itching to hold TWoW in our books to see if R+L=J is true!

Btw, what would the Kingsguard thinks of Jon's entourage of buddies(Samwell Tarly, Pypar, Grenn, Dolorous Edd, Iron Emmett and Satin)?

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Do we have any reason to think Jon's parents will be revealed in the next book, instead of the last book?

The stabbing of Jon is a key competent of that revelation. To bring about the revelation, I think Jon will be in a coma. There Bloodraven will drag him on a green-seeing trip that show him the truth of his birth. When he wakes up, he will be Jon Targaryen, First of His name, with the old childhood self of Jon Snow, the bastard of Winterfell killed off.

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A question. Well, a set of related questions, really. (I'm sure this has been considered before, but as I have not read through all of the R+L=J threads, I just wonder what the current thinking might be.)

Assuming Jon is technically a legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen... is it inevitable in your mind that this becomes publicly acknowledged? Is it important to the story in the end that Jon is heir to the Iron Throne? If so, why?

I ask because, recently, it occurred to me that "the dragon must have three heads" might be interpreted to mean "the dragon must have three heads [of Houses]." And if that were the case, then it could perhaps be more important that Jon is recognized as Stark heir, rather than a Targaryen, whatever the "truth" of his legitimacy might be.

So that led me to wonder why - or whether - it is important that Jon be acknowledged as a legitimate Targaryen. Is it simply that we want a "happy" ending? And since we all really like Jon, then seeing him seated on the Iron Throne as a Targaryen king would make us happy?

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"So that led me to wonder why - or whether - it is important that Jon be acknowledged as a legitimate Targaryen. Is it simply that we want a "happy" ending? And since we all really like Jon, then seeing him seated on the Iron Throne as a Targaryen king would make us happy? "




One answer is that if he has even a disputed claim of being legitimate Dany might feel compelled to marry him, Thus uniting the two most reasonable claiments which would end the civil war (see historical end of War of Roses) allowing a united front against the others. People hate this but considering Targ custom of incestuous marriages and the pressing need it is plausible.


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A question stemming from the last thread. Is Targaryen polygamy ever mentioned in A Game of Thrones? The closest thing I could find is the appendix (which happens to say that Jon is Ned's bastard). It says that Valyrians wed brother to sister and that Aegon the Conqueror married both his sisters and had sons from each of them but it doesn't say he was married to both of them at the same time.

I know Jorah says at some point that Aegon the Conqueror took two wives and he implies it was at the same time but that was in a later book. And I know that Rhaegar's best friend, Jon Connington, thinks that polygamy is not an option for Targaryens. What I am looking for is any reference to polygamy in the first book, A Game of Thrones.

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Actually in a recent interview GRRM said that some fans back in 1998 figured out a secret that he will unveil in the next book. I have to think that the secret he is referring to is Jon's parents. It will all come to fruition as his death/near death experience will fit in with the waking of the stone dragon.


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Actually in a recent interview GRRM said that some fans back in 1998 figured out a secret that he will unveil in the next book. I have to think that the secret he is referring to is Jon's parents. It will all come to fruition as his death/near death experience will fit in with the waking of the stone dragon.

Did he say 1998? My sci-fi book club was discussing (and rejecting) the R+L=J theory in autumn 1997. In Spring 1998 we were discussing (and accepting) the idea that Prince Aegon was still alive.

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Did he say 1998? My sci-fi book club was discussing (and rejecting) the R+L=J theory in autumn 1997. In Spring 1998 we were discussing (and accepting) the idea that Prince Aegon was still alive.

Hmm, if FAegon is really Aegon, that reveal has already occurred. Was GRRM referring to TWOW in this 'recent' interview?

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Hmm, if FAegon is really Aegon, that reveal has already occurred. Was GRRM referring to TWOW in this 'recent' interview?

I am not familiar with the recent interview, but if Ned conspired with Ashara to get Aegon out of Westeros, the reveal is yet to happen.

Or if R+L="Aegon", that reveal is yet to happen.

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Is the book club rejecting R+L=J supposed to mean anything? :dunno:



I'm torn on the actual explicit reveal's timing. On the one hand, I do think that Jon's catabasis is the perfect time to reveal it to him, and it also introduces the tricky dynamic of Jon finally knowing the truth but no one else knowing (besides Howland, Wylla, etc., who already knew), and him having to balance that knowledge with his other duties. On the other hand, this is The Big One and as such he might hold out until the last book to really reveal it, but then that runs the risk of it "tying up too neat," where Jon learns who he really is and in short-ish order saves the day. I can see those who haven't figured the solution out feeling jerked around if the reveal precedes the conclusion too closely. We need time to digest it.

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The reason I mention the book club discussing it in '97 is that it was an obvious/cliched potential plot device on the first read-through so I would be surprised if Martin thought that no-one figured out that this was a possibility until 2 years after Game of Thrones was published. That was also why I asked if there is any reference to polygamy in Game of Thrones (I don't think there is but I might have missed it).

Out of curiosity, what is a catabasis? I have not come across that word before.

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He said even before a Clash of Kings came out some fans have figured out a secret that he would unveil in the next book. He also added that some authors who find out that the readers have figured out that the butler did change it, but he said he would not do that. The interview is on youtube that took place a couple of months ago.

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Re polygamy and Aegon and his sisters - I remember reading (maybe on Wiki) that Aegon lived with both sisters but spent 10 nights with Rhaenys to every 1 night he spent with Visenya. I don't know if that's canon or where the info comes from, but if it's correct then yes they were all married (or at least cohabiting) at the same time.

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Continued from the locked thread about speculation:






Of the percentage of people that have read the books, how many people are on these forums and have gotten R+L=J rammed down their throats and think it's is now a foregone conclusion? At roughly 4000 forum members we are looking at less than 1%. Of the people who are not on these forums, how many have created this theory for themselves and have an inkling? Maybe 10% or less. The clues are there but it's so subtle, you'de really have to go over it with a fine tooth comb.



So this Jon is a Targ theory is far from predictable in the eyes of most readers.




We can all make up percentages and try and guess how many readers figured out R+L=J for themselves. My guess would be as many as 40-50%. Without burrowing into the minds of every person who has ever read the books, we're never going to know for certain what % of readers picked up on the clues.





Does anyone think that just maybe it's possible that there are a few characters that are central to the climax of the story, and not only Jon, or Dany, or Bran, or anyone else? The story is building up to one major event, and I have a feeling that there's a handful of characters that are central to this event. None of them are going to be the "one hero" who rises up to defeat a great evil.





So you think all the POV characters will come together, collectively defeat the Others, and then divide the kingdom equally with no one ruler and no significant consequences for R+L=J?



A lot of characters undoubtedly have interesting parts to play in the remaining books, but unless R+L=J is proven to be untrue or Jon is already dead and not coming back, i'm sticking to my belief that Jon is the main character GRRM had in his head when writing ASoIaF.


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Continued from the locked thread about speculation:

We can all make up percentages and try and guess how many readers figured out R+L=J for themselves. My guess would be as many as 40-50%. Without burrowing into the minds of every person who has ever read the books, we're never going to know for certain what % of readers picked up on the clues.

So you think all the POV characters will come together, collectively defeat the Others, and then divide the kingdom equally with no one ruler and no significant consequences for R+L=J?

A lot of characters undoubtedly have interesting parts to play in the remaining books, but unless R+L=J is proven to be untrue or Jon is already dead and not coming back, i'm sticking to my belief that Jon is the main character GRRM had in his head when writing ASoIaF.

:thumbsup: :agree:

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