R+L = J v 73

[Jory Cassel]

'Lord Eddard' would show Lyanna knew Brandon and Rickard had been killed.

The calling to Eddard (or Ned) shows that (if R and L were married) the Queen had the ability to call to the Kingsguard.

Then why does she first call him Eddard, an later Ned?

No. Calling out to Ned has no significance regarding the question wether Lyanna was or was not able to command the KG.

You have furthermore failed to back this up by providing a link:

but with the death of their dragons House Targaryen lost the clout that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy

that was said by GRRM... simple reading comprehension Targayens Lost (DO NOT HAVE) the clout needed to engage in polygamy.

I do not see the part of 'unless they really want to' anywhere in that. Perhaps my glasses are broken. I also do not see few or diffucult either.

All i see is LOST.. and no exception to that.

I guess i just got stuck on the somebody can't do something they lost the ability to do.

Kind of like if I went blind so it is impossible for me to see. Lost the ability impossible to use the ability.

[Dagda]

Yes, I've been thinking I should do that... just lacking enough "lumped together" free time to get organized. Three kids, a full time job, etc. - lately, if I want to post more than an extended thought, I have to stay up until 2 am to make it happen...

(Meanwhile, the name Ned appears to be rooted in the Proto-Indo-European word for "the dead, corpse." So perhaps we all should have seen that coming... :) )

Ned also is a medical term meaning no evidence of disease. No whoring for Ned. :)

( When you are ready for the thread. Maybe wolf, ice, and eira can help. I'm terrible when it comes to the magical side.)

[Ygrain]

'Lord Eddard' would show Lyanna knew Brandon and Rickard had been killed.

The calling to Eddard (or Ned) shows that (if R and L were married) the Queen had the ability to call to the Kingsguard. So the kingsguard was either operating under orders of the Queen when they fought Ned or they were still operating under the order given by Rhaegar. If they were still obeying Rhaegar it is difficult to make the case for Lyanna being Queen.

R and L never married... Jon was a bastard. (Rhaegar never became king to change that) In short Jon is not Oliver Twist.

Jon Snow is the prince that was promised but not an heir to the iron throne.

Jon Snow (Rhaegar's son) was born under the protection of the bleeding Arthur Dayne (all knights must bleed) of Starfell.

As wrong as it gets.

Rhaegar was never King, so Lyanna was never Queen, that's Rhaella.

In every single memory that Ned has, Lyanna adresses him as Ned. Adressing her brother in any other way in an emotionally peaked moment is nonsense, and the sequence of the dream shows clearly that it is not Lyanna speaking but Vayon Poole whose voice got mixed into the end of the dream.

but with the death of their dragons House Targaryen lost the clout that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy

that was said by GRRM... simple reading comprehension Targayens Lost (DO NOT HAVE) the clout needed to engage in polygamy.

I do not see the part of 'unless they really want to' anywhere in that. Perhaps my glasses are broken. I also do not see few or diffucult either.

All i see is LOST.. and no exception to that.

I guess i just got stuck on the somebody can't do something they lost the ability to do.

Kind of like if I went blind so it is impossible for me to see. Lost the ability impossible to use the ability.

/sigh/

That is a wiki quote, not what GRRM said. GRRM quotes about polygamy are well known, and this is not one of them. Feel free to peruse the reference guide.

[Dagda]

I doubt it is going to be as simple as that.

It may be ... there is an awful lot of plots lines dangling to get through in the two remaining book. Simple might be the only way out.

[Ygrain]

Ned also is a medical term meaning no evidence of disease. No whoring for Ned. :)

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

He tells us his very first chapter that he is not the type to sleep around :-)

[stateofdissipation]

If he was a bastard, then he cannot be the prince that was promised. A bastard is not a prince.

That is assuming that the prophecy followed the same rules for inheratence and titles that are followed in Westeros.

We know the prophecy was written before the doom of Valaryia and the Targs did not adopt the faith of the 7 until after that, We do not know the rules for inheritence or legitimacy before the doom.

If prince is the title given to the sons of kings and princes in Valaryia regardless of legitimacy there is no contradiction.

[Staenerys Stargaryen]

So Ned and the crannogman Howland Reed defeated the three kingsguard at the ToJ, and Ned says he would not have lived if Reed wasn't there or something along those lines.

Does anyone think Reed went poison arrow or poison dart or something to defeat those Ned refers to as the greatest knights of his time.

Or is Howland really a badass with a sword?

Really just can't wait to meet HR

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

That is assuming that the prophecy followed the same rules for inheratence and titles that are followed in Westeros.

We know the prophecy was written before the doom of Valaryia and the Targs did not adopt the faith of the 7 until after that, We do not know the rules for inheritence or legitimacy before the doom.

If prince is the title given to the sons of kings and princes in Valaryia regardless of legitimacy there is no contradiction.

Of course, if Aegon is right and "the error was in the translation" - then perhaps we should be talking about "the dragon that was promised," rather than "the prince." And depending on who you ask, a dragon could very well be a bastard...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So Ned and the crannogman Howland Reed defeated the three kingsguard at the ToJ, and Ned says he would not have lived if Reed wasn't there or something along those lines.

Does anyone think Reed went poison arrow or poison dart or something to defeat those Ned refers to as the greatest knights of his time.

Or is Howland really a badass with a sword?

Really just can't wait to meet HR

Or was the Howler just well-educated in the laws of succession, so he sat Ser Arthur down and walked him through the facts of Jon's legitimacy? ;)

[stateofdissipation]

As wrong as it gets.

Rhaegar was never King, so Lyanna was never Queen, that's Rhaella.

In every single memory that Ned has, Lyanna adresses him as Ned. Adressing her brother in any other way in an emotionally peaked moment is nonsense, and the sequence of the dream shows clearly that it is not Lyanna speaking but Vayon Poole whose voice got mixed into the end of the dream.

/sigh/

That is a wiki quote, not what GRRM said. GRRM quotes about polygamy are well known, and this is not one of them. Feel free to peruse the reference guide.

sigh

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

GRRM aside...

There is no evidence showing it happened. It is an exercise in speculation because so many wish to see Jon Snow as Oliver Twist.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had married. When Ned arrived at ToJ he was the uncle of the king and his sister was Regent Queen Mother. Ned heard Lyanna calling from the tower. That means the KG heard as well. If Lyanna was Queen she either ordered or allowed her brother to fight her KG to the death. That really gets completely ignored in the rush to have Jon be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Without marriage... a decree from Aerys legitimizing any and all of Rhaegar's children would produce the same effect of having Jon legitimate. There is more eivdence for the legitimizing of a bastard than there is for multiple marriages. That would make Jon king without Lyanna being Queen and explain the KG's apparent disregard of her. Born legitimate or a legitimized bastard have equal evidence.... None. However, the latter would fit better in the way things played out.

Sansa was married as a hostage. Aerys raped his wife. Rhaegar marrying and impregnating Lyanna is not exclusive of the allegations of kidnapping and rape. The case against Lyanna's kidnapping is much stronger than the case for her marriage.

[Fred of Ashai]

There is no evidence that Jon is legitimate. The Targaryens engaged polygamous marriages in spite of the laws when they had dragons. There were no dragons which makes it an impossibility that Rhaegar had two wives.

Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned (The enemy) arrived. Even after Ned (the enemy) said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. and to obey orders.

With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.

That would have made Lyanna the regent Queen Mother until Jon came of age. The Kingsguard then ignored their regent when she called for Eddard. It would have also made Ned the king's uncle. It is hard to imagine how the Kingsguard could believe it their duty to defend the king from one of 4 remaining blood relatives. It would be very short sighted of the KG to neither inform Ned that he was fighting his nephew or they were in fact defending the king.

Polygamy was never legal

After Aegon other male Targaryens has multiple wives, but with the death of their dragons House Targaryen lost the clout that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy in Westeros. According to GRRM,

Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. Dany had dragons. Furthermore,

One problem with this: Ned never said that Aegon was dead. There's no reason to think the King's guards believed that Aegon was dead.

[stateofdissipation]

One problem with this: Ned never said that Aegon was dead. There's no reason to think the King's guards believed that Aegon was dead.

Ned did say he thought they would be with Viserys who was only the heir if Aegon was dead...

If the KG didn't think Aegon was dead (quite likely imho) they were not guarding the king as so many have wanted so badly to believe.

The false assumption that the kingsguard must be guarding the king and therefore Jon is the king was really my target.

All evidence says that the KG remained at Rhaegar's command and died obeying his orders.

To make their presence a proof that King Jon Twist was in residence is absurdly stretching things...

[Jory Cassel]

sigh

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

GRRM aside...

More likely to object is hardly "unable to get away with polygamy", which was your earlier claim of "GRRM's words".

btw, they could, however, continue practicing incest, which is collectively condemned and considered repulsive.

There is no evidence showing it happened. It is an exercise in speculation because so many wish to see Jon Snow as Oliver Twist.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had married. When Ned arrived at ToJ he was the uncle of the king and his sister was Regent Queen Mother. Ned heard Lyanna calling from the tower. That means the KG heard as well. If Lyanna was Queen she either ordered or allowed her brother to fight her KG to the death. That really gets completely ignored in the rush to have Jon be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

What Ygrain said. Furthermore, the certainty to presume that "Eddard" in this case was recollection rather than the result of somatic stimulation is baffling and, as mentioned above, utterly unfounded.

Without marriage... a decree from Aerys legitimizing any and all of Rhaegar's children would produce the same effect of having Jon legitimate. There is more eivdence for the legitimizing of a bastard than there is for multiple marriages. That would make Jon king without Lyanna being Queen and explain the KG's apparent disregard of her. Born legitimate or a legitimized bastard have equal evidence.... None. However, the latter would fit better in the way things played out.

Sansa was married as a hostage. Aerys raped his wife. Rhaegar marrying and impregnating Lyanna is not exclusive of the allegations of kidnapping and rape. The case against Lyanna's kidnapping is much stronger than the case for her marriage.

It would, however, require a decree by Aerys, which is not only not hinted at in no way, but furthermore, incredibly unlikely due to the discord between Aerys and Rhaegar.

eta:

Ned did say he thought they would be with Viserys who was only the heir if Aegon was dead...

If the KG didn't think Aegon was dead (quite likely imho) they were not guarding the king as so many have wanted so badly to believe.

The false assumption that the kingsguard must be guarding the king and therefore Jon is the king was really my target.

All evidence says that the KG remained at Rhaegar's command and died obeying his orders.

To make their presence a proof that King Jon Twist was in residence is absurdly stretching things...

All authority Rhaegar had over the KG was derived from Aerys delegating authority onto Rhaegar. The moment Aerys was slain and thereby ceased to be King, the authority Rhaegar had becomes irrelevant, in practice, this was the moment the KG learned of Aerys' death.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had married. When Ned arrived at ToJ he was the uncle of the king and his sister was Regent Queen Mother. Ned heard Lyanna calling from the tower. That means the KG heard as well. If Lyanna was Queen she either ordered or allowed her brother to fight her KG to the death. That really gets completely ignored in the rush to have Jon be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

The reason the bolded gets "ignored" is because it is a false assumption. Lyanna was only one of those things. Can you guess which one?

To be a queen, you must be married to a king. Rhaegar predeceased Aerys and was never king.

A regent is appointed by the Council or by decree of the previous king. Lyanna was neither.

You could make a case for Lyanna having the rank of Princess, but never queen or regent.

Mother, yes absolutely ;)

[Ygrain]

sigh

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

GRRM aside...

There is no evidence showing it happened. It is an exercise in speculation because so many wish to see Jon Snow as Oliver Twist.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had married. When Ned arrived at ToJ he was the uncle of the king and his sister was Regent Queen Mother. Ned heard Lyanna calling from the tower. That means the KG heard as well. If Lyanna was Queen she either ordered or allowed her brother to fight her KG to the death. That really gets completely ignored in the rush to have Jon be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Without marriage... a decree from Aerys legitimizing any and all of Rhaegar's children would produce the same effect of having Jon legitimate. There is more eivdence for the legitimizing of a bastard than there is for multiple marriages. That would make Jon king without Lyanna being Queen and explain the KG's apparent disregard of her. Born legitimate or a legitimized bastard have equal evidence.... None. However, the latter would fit better in the way things played out.

Sansa was married as a hostage. Aerys raped his wife. Rhaegar marrying and impregnating Lyanna is not exclusive of the allegations of kidnapping and rape. The case against Lyanna's kidnapping is much stronger than the case for her marriage.

And it states "illegal" or "impossible" where exactly?

Also, please, do not presume to ascribe motives to people whom you know nothing about.

[stateofdissipation]

The reason the bolded gets "ignored" is because it is a false assumption. Lyanna was only one of those things. Can you guess which one?

To be a queen, you must be married to a king. Rhaegar predeceased Aerys and was never king.

A regent is appointed by the Council or by decree of the previous king. Lyanna was neither.

You could make a case for Lyanna having the rank of Princess, but never queen or regent.

Mother, yes absolutely ;)

Edward, the Black Prince of England died one year before his father, becoming the first English Prince of Wales not to become King of England. The throne passed instead to his son Richard II, a minor, upon the death of Edward III. Princess Dowager Joan of Kent was the de facto ruler until her son came of age.

Lyanna was princess dowager... not queen mother... I stand corrected on the term..

However, the mother of the minor King (princess or queen dowager) rules until her son comes of age...

The term was incorrect but the concept that Lyanna had control of the KG if Jon was king is quite correct...

The false assumption that the kingsguard must be guarding the king and therefore Jon is the king was really my target.

The duty to protect the king does not come before obedience to orders.... we swore to obey not to judge ring a bell. The fact they remained at the ToJ while their king and prince were killed is a testament to the idea that obedience is their first duty.

All evidence says that the KG remained at Rhaegar's command and died obeying his orders.

There is evidence is that Rhaegar ordered them to stay. There is evidence they died,

There is rampant conjecture as to why they remained and what there purpose was. However that is not evidence...

To make their presence a proof that King Jon Twist was in residence is absurdly stretching things...

Ignoring the KG's duty to protect their king in Kingslanding, then their duty to protect king Aegon is necessary to establish their duty to protect the 4th in line to the throne. The very duty which the KG apparently ignored while remaining at the ToJ for the duration of the rebellion then becomes the duty they fight to their deaths to uphold.... Jon and Oliver... orphans with hard childhoods but each secretly being of noble birth yes same story.

Umm that makes no sense and is quite cliche.. calling it an absurd stretch was being generous. completely delusional would be more accurate.

[stateofdissipation]

And it states "illegal" or "impossible" where exactly?

Also, please, do not presume to ascribe motives to people whom you know nothing about.

the entirely imaginary wedding that is nowhere in any book and only present because it makes Jon into Oliver Twist.... seems good enough reason to disregard a given quote that indicates Targs no longer engage in polygamy.

I used illegal because it was the word used in the original thread... Nothing has made polygamy illegal...

I really should have stated that marriages are religous and not civil.(immoral and not illegal) I should have then pointed out that in the faith of the seven polygamy is a sin.... it always was and that the faith ignored it in the Targaryens while they had dragons.

[stateofdissipation]

More likely to object is hardly "unable to get away with polygamy", which was your earlier claim of "GRRM's words".

btw, they could, however, continue practicing incest, which is collectively condemned and considered repulsive.

What Ygrain said. Furthermore, the certainty to presume that "Eddard" in this case was recollection rather than the result of somatic stimulation is baffling and, as mentioned above, utterly unfounded.

It would, however, require a decree by Aerys, which is not only not hinted at in no way, but furthermore, incredibly unlikely due to the discord between Aerys and Rhaegar.

eta:

All authority Rhaegar had over the KG was derived from Aerys delegating authority onto Rhaegar. The moment Aerys was slain and thereby ceased to be King, the authority Rhaegar had becomes irrelevant, in practice, this was the moment the KG learned of Aerys' death.

Polygamy was not standard practice. To believe it happened requires accepting an exception to standard practice.

The dream in the cell with Lyanna calling Lord Eddard was the only one with Ned outside the tower and the only time she addressed him in front of other people. The two were alone for Promise me Ned...

call it a wash...

Overcoming discord between father and son seems more likely than overcoming tradition and sin for the faith to allow a second marriage,,, Both the legitimized and the marriage remain pure speculation... your guess is as good as mine.... but both are guesses

If a report from the rebels of the death's are sufficient that would be the case. Learned is a far stretch from a report by a biased source.

In absence of another order, soldiers are directed to continue to follow the last command given another by competent authority. The KG never said 'we guard the king' they simply called themselves by their title KG.....

Barring the most reasonable and likely explaination...

Jon is king

Lyanna the princess dowager and in power until her son comes of age-- she ordered the KG to fight her brother and his men to the death.

or

The KG are acting on their own authority on behalf of the king--- the best way to defend the king is to kill one of his 4 remaining blood relatives.

neither makes any sense at all....

[MtnLion]

There is no evidence that Jon is legitimate. The Targaryens engaged polygamous marriages in spite of the laws when they had dragons. There were no dragons which makes it an impossibility that Rhaegar had two wives.

Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned (The enemy) arrived. Even after Ned (the enemy) said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. and to obey orders.

Jaime says that the vow is, "to protect and defend the king". He also mentions that they swear to obey, etc. But the vow is said solemnly immediately before he receives his white cloak. They don't obey orders that would put the king at risk, and Jaime even instructs the Kingsguard not to blindly follow Tommen's orders. No, they are not dying to obey orders from a prince, when a king is unguarded.

That would have made Lyanna the regent Queen Mother until Jon came of age. The Kingsguard then ignored their regent when she called for Eddard. It would have also made Ned the king's uncle. It is hard to imagine how the Kingsguard could believe it their duty to defend the king from one of 4 remaining blood relatives. It would be very short sighted of the KG to neither inform Ned that he was fighting his nephew or they were in fact defending the king.

No, there is only one queen, her name is Rhaella. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is present, and much more apt at defending the king than Lyanna who is suffering from a fever. She never called for Ned, until after the Kingsguard are dead. Jon's uncle is the second in command of a rebellion that saw Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon slaughtered, it would not make sense for any of the Kingsguard to not consider that. It makes a lot of sense for the Kingsguard to protect the secret of Jon's presence. After they win the fight here, they can continue on in secrecy, to making their way to neutral ground and safety before revealing the presence of the Targaryen heir.

Polygamy was never legal

After Aegon other male Targaryens has multiple wives, but with the death of their dragons House Targaryen lost the clout that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy in Westeros. According to GRRM, Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. Dany had dragons. Furthermore,

(I don't know where you were going with your "Furthermore".) Dragons don't have much to do with things. It makes things easier for the Targaryens to do as they please, but the lack of dragons didn't kick Aerys' ass of the throne when he played his lethal trick on Rickard. I have never seen anything saying that polygamy was a sin. I have seen where incest was considered bad, but not a sin. Here we have two very front and center characters practicing incest, and I hear the whining about polygamy, when it has already been established. Then there is abundant reason to justify it in this case, and for Elia to condone it, since she cannot have any more children.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Edward, the Black Prince of England died one year before his father, becoming the first English Prince of Wales not to become King of England. The throne passed instead to his son Richard II, a minor, upon the death of Edward III. Princess Dowager Joan of Kent was the de facto ruler until her son came of age.

Lyanna was princess dowager... not queen mother... I stand corrected on the term..

However, the mother of the minor King (princess or queen dowager) rules until her son comes of age...

The term was incorrect but the concept that Lyanna had control of the KG if Jon was king is quite correct...

Allow another correction. Joan of Kent was indeed the Dowager Princess of Wales but was never the de facto ruler of England. That honor fell to Richard's uncle, John of Gaunt, the Duke of Lancaster. Gaunt was prevented from being named regent due to fears of usurpation as he was a powerful magnate, the wealthiest man in England and according to agnatic principles, next in line for the throne. Instead, a series of councils were invested with the de jure power to rule the country during Richard's minority. Due to his overwhelming wealth and influence, Gaunt continued to wield power and was considered by most to be the de facto Regent.

Princess Joan may have wielded some influence over her young son, but she was never considered the regent and most matters of state were decided by the continuing councils or by the King's uncles.

And Westeros is not England, where at any rate regency was never automatic but was decided by the will of the late King or by the Privy Council. The KG would have reported to their LC (who was present) who sat on the Small Council, which would have been the body with the authority to declare a regent in the absence of a decree from the previous king.