R+L = J v 73

[MtnLion]

Along with Lady G's comments, I wanted to add that the exchange at the tower includes reference to a queen if you care to reread it. The queen's name is Rhaella, and Ned is suggesting that the Kingsguard should be on Dragonstone protecting her and prince Viserys.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been allowed to enter into it. Ned does not need to tell them that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. They already know.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty, even to the mad king; himself.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend King Aerys (then). This lends some credance to the curse aimed at Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. Arthur is confident in the outcome.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Along with Lady G's comments, I wanted to add that the exchange at the tower includes reference to a queen if you care to reread it. The queen's name is Rhaella, and Ned is suggesting that the Kingsguard should be on Dragonstone protecting her and prince Viserys.

And to add further, as little as I like this type of speculation, I think it's likely that had the Targaryen cause prevailed after the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys the regent would have been Rhaella, who was indeed the Dowager Queen, and a Targaryen to boot.

[hiemal]

As convincing as I find the R+L=J theory on paper, I just can't see Jon as a Dragon.

[stateofdissipation]

Jaime says that the vow is, "to protect and defend the king". He also mentions that they swear to obey, etc. But the vow is said solemnly immediately before he receives his white cloak. They don't obey orders that would put the king at risk, and Jaime even instructs the Kingsguard not to blindly follow Tommen's orders. No, they are not dying to obey orders from a prince, when a king is unguarded.

No, there is only one queen, her name is Rhaella. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is present, and much more apt at defending the king than Lyanna who is suffering from a fever. She never called for Ned, until after the Kingsguard are dead. Jon's uncle is the second in command of a rebellion that saw Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon slaughtered, it would not make sense for any of the Kingsguard to not consider that. It makes a lot of sense for the Kingsguard to protect the secret of Jon's presence. After they win the fight here, they can continue on in secrecy, to making their way to neutral ground and safety before revealing the presence of the Targaryen heir.

After Aegon other male Targaryens has multiple wives, but with the death of their dragons House Targaryen lost the clout that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy in Westeros. According to GRRM,

Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. Dany had dragons. Furthermore,

(I don't know where you were going with your "Furthermore".) Dragons don't have much to do with things. It makes things easier for the Targaryens to do as they please, but the lack of dragons didn't kick Aerys' ass of the throne when he played his lethal trick on Rickard. I have never seen anything saying that polygamy was a sin. I have seen where incest was considered bad, but not a sin. Here we have two very front and center characters practicing incest, and I hear the whining about polygamy, when it has already been established. Then there is abundant reason to justify it in this case, and for Elia to condone it, since she cannot have any more children.

Jamie's ideas of what it is to be Kingsguard were not the same as his brothers' ideas were under aerys

In response to the killings of Brandon and Rickon, jamie is told we swore to obey him not to judge him.

After Rhaegar died the KG at the tower of joy left the king unguarded to follow the orders of a dead prince. The death of the prince that gave the order to stay did not result in the KG returning to guard the living king.

But the death of the king that gave the power to the dead prince.... that changed everything and made the KG suddenly the independent protectors of the baby king.

Rhaella was queen dowager after the death of Aerys. However (in your scenario) Lyanna was princess dowager, and mother to the king. In the same circumstances for the Black Prince of England... The princess dowager- mother of the king ruled until her son came of age.

So killing the kings uncle and commander of the armies of the north is part of the KG plan to restore the infant king to the throne?

Revealing the secret Jon who is also proof that Robert's rebellion was waged under false pretenses (the abduction of Lyanna) to one of 4 remaining blood relatives of the king would be hurtful to their cause?

Ok.. name one targ that had multiple wives at the same time after the last dragon died... Ummmm nobody..

It was a sin in the faith of the seven to have multiple wives... even if Elia gave the ok for it...

Nobody calls Lyanna Princess... Nobody mentions the marriage... there is nothing anywhere to indicate a marriage happened.

Except for the insistance of some readers to justify the existence of Jon Twist or Oliver Snow.. there is no reason to believe it...

Kingsguard guarding the king after failing to guard the last two kings is the best case one has to establish that L and R married. The reasoning is weak and ignores the fact that while at the ToJ two kings died under the protection of the KG. Make up your mind please... were they following orders or protecting the king.... your scenario had them following orders until the king was dead and then switching to protect the king.... its nonsense.

[stateofdissipation]

And to add further, as little as I like this type of speculation, I think it's likely that had the Targaryen cause prevailed after the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys the regent would have been Rhaella, who was indeed the Dowager Queen, and a Targaryen to boot.

a dowager queen is nothing... a queen mother is... she was not

Check the death of the Black Prince of England... the new kings mother rules if the king is a minor.

[FittleLinger]

As convincing as I find the R+L=J theory on paper, I just can't see Jon as a Dragon.

That's cause he is a person.

PS> Sorry for being snarky, but what does "a dragon" mean in that sense? There were so many different Targs, and Jon was not even raised by one. Nature, nurture, stuff?

Is there a thing such as genetic inheritance of habits and behaviour? And even if there is (in Martin's or our world) what would it mean?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

a dowager queen is nothing... a queen mother is... she was not

Check the death of the Black Prince of England... the new kings mother rules if the king is a minor.

Check my reply on the previous page. That is false. It's even in the wiki you linked. Not that I need you or a wiki to school me in 14th c English politics.

[Lyse Stark]

Along with Lady G's comments, I wanted to add that the exchange at the tower includes reference to a queen if you care to reread it. The queen's name is Rhaella, and Ned is suggesting that the Kingsguard should be on Dragonstone protecting her and prince Viserys.

"I looked for you on the Trident, Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

We were not there, Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

Woe to the Usurper if we had been, said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been allowed to enter into it. Ned does not need to tell them that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. They already know.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty, even to the mad king; himself.

I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

Ser Willem is a good man and true, said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

But not of the Kingsguard, Ser Gerold pointed out. The Kingsguard does not flee.

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend King Aerys (then). This lends some credance to the curse aimed at Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

Neds wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. Arthur is confident in the outcome.

No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

And everything Ygrain laid out in the quote meant Jon was born a king. And you believe the Targs lost the right to practice polygamy after the dragons died out; I say no. They didn't just give it up, Rhaegar revived it after Elia Martell nearly lost her life giving birth to Aegon. He took Lyanna as his second wife. And in that point, your belief about polygamy being invalidated with the death of dragons is pointless.

[Lyse Stark]

That's cause he is a person.

PS> Sorry for being snarky, but what does "a dragon" mean in that sense? There were so many different Targs, and Jon was not even raised by one. Nature, nurture, stuff?

Is there a thing such as genetic inheritance of habits and behaviour? And even if there is (in Martin's or our world) what would it mean?

Symbolically, Jon was born a dragon, but was nurtured by wolves, so he has aspects of both.

[FittleLinger]

Symbolically, Jon was born a dragon, but was nurtured by wolves, so he has aspects of both.

You, westerosi, put too much price on your sigils. You paint something on your clothes, and suddenly you're all wolves, and dragons, and lions :D

I kid, symbolically speaking you're right, but the "he's nothing like the Targs" card has been played too much with seriousness. Why would he be anything like the Targs (excluding looks, which is the only thing he can genetically inherit by them), when he's never met a Targaryen in his life, excluding maester Aemon, who makes the exact point that he is not a Targ anymore, he is a NW brother?

[stateofdissipation]

Allow another correction. Joan of Kent was indeed the Dowager Princess of Wales but was never the de facto ruler of England. That honor fell to Richard's uncle, John of Gaunt, the Duke of Lancaster. Gaunt was prevented from being named regent due to fears of usurpation as he was a powerful magnate, the wealthiest man in England and according to agnatic principles, next in line for the throne. Instead, a series of councils were invested with the de jure power to rule the country during Richard's minority. Due to his overwhelming wealth and influence, Gaunt continued to wield power and was considered by most to be the de facto Regent.

Princess Joan may have wielded some influence over her young son, but she was never considered the regent and most matters of state were decided by the continuing councils or by the King's uncles.

And Westeros is not England, where at any rate regency was never automatic but was decided by the will of the late King or by the Privy Council. The KG would have reported to their LC (who was present) who sat on the Small Council, which would have been the body with the authority to declare a regent in the absence of a decree from the previous king.

It is the closest example i could find.

given that midevil england and europe is the model for the series.... and lacking any textual evidence of the procedures for succession... (excluding one that the kings mother rules until he comes of age... which actually supports the case that Lyanna would be in charge.) we should look to history for the procedure...

The circumstances seem closest to the death of the black prince of england....

By 1371, the Black Prince was no longer able to perform his duties as Prince of Aquitaine, and returned to England, where plague was wreaking havoc. In 1372, he forced himself to attempt one final, abortive campaign in the hope of saving his father’s French possessions. His health was now completely shattered. On 7 June 1376, a week before his forty-sixth birthday, he died in his bed at Westminster.

Joan’s son was next in line to succeed King Edward III. Edward III died on 21 June 1377 and Richard became King. He was crowned Richard II at the age of 10 in the following month. Early in his reign, the young King faced the challenge of the Peasants' Revolt. The Lollards, religious reformers led by John Wyclif, had enjoyed the protection of Joan of Kent, but the violent climax of the popular movement for reform reduced the feisty Joan to a state of terror, while leaving the King with an improved reputation.^{[citation needed]} As a power behind the throne, she was well loved for her influence over the young king -

In Lyanna's (If she was married) case she was the only adult remaining in the royal family. That would reasonably mean Lyanna was the regent.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Joan of Kent was not a regent. Nor did she wield appreciable political power. Richard's uncle was the de facto regent, it says as much in the part of the wiki you didn't cut and paste.

And since Westeros is not England, this is way OT and I suggest it be left right there.

[stateofdissipation]

Joan of Kent was not a regent. Nor did she wield appreciable political power. Richard's uncle was the de facto regent, it says as much in the part of the wiki you didn't cut and paste.

And since Westeros is not England, this is way OT and I suggest it be left right there.

In short other imaginary inheretence and KG loyalties are invalid if they do not end in Oliver Snow or Jon Twist....

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I have my doubts about Rhaegar having married Lyanna. If he had defeated Robert on the Trident, he would have removed his father from the Throne. He basically said as much to Jaime before he left.

Then he can legitimize Jon, and prepare the realm for the future threat. That was probably his plan.

[FittleLinger]

In short other imaginary inheretence and KG loyalties are invalid if they do not end in Oliver Snow or Jon Twist....

No, it's just that "he was the rightful king" requires far less assumptions, wiki-strolling and 14-century England roundabouts...

[Jory Cassel]

I have my doubts about Rhaegar having married Lyanna. If he had defeated Robert on the Trident, he would have removed his father from the Throne. He basically said as much to Jaime before he left.

Then he can legitimize Jon, and prepare the realm for the future threat. That was probably his plan.

Seems awfully complicated compared to marrying her

[Dagda]

Then or now, said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend King Aerys (then). This lends some credance to the curse aimed at Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

Couple questions.

Who gave the order for the LCKG be at the Tower?

Lyanna asks to see Ned. Why isn't he allowed to under a flag of truce?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

No, it's just that "he was the rightful king" requires far less assumptions, wiki-strolling and 14-century England roundabouts...

Lol. True that! ;)

[hiemal]

That's cause he is a person.

PS> Sorry for being snarky, but what does "a dragon" mean in that sense? There were so many different Targs, and Jon was not even raised by one. Nature, nurture, stuff?

Is there a thing such as genetic inheritance of habits and behaviour? And even if there is (in Martin's or our world) what would it mean?

Good question- it could be that I am relying too heavilly on the perceived link between characters and their symbolic representation. But it still doesn't feel quite "right".

:

[Dagda]

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

He tells us his very first chapter that he is not the type to sleep around :-)

I have this little idea that when Ned mets Cat he's grumbling " Christ, I have marry her?" ;)