R+L = J v 73

[Dagda]

I hope I do not presume too much if I say on MtnLion's behalf that that while the KG are not required to guard every single royal, someone being royal/wedded into the family is valid grounds to grant them KG protection (we have Barristan's musing that he wouldhave to protect Hizdahr if Dany ordered him

I'm not exactly disagreeing .... It's just odd that you have such a concentration around one person. I doubt that Rhaegar had KG protection at all times when he was camping out at Sumerhall, and he was second in line. I know, no war, but the world of Westeros is still a dangerous place.

[Alia of the knife]

I still have questions as to Dayne and Whents presence with Rhaegar prior to the "abduction."

He didn't always have them 24/7 since he went alone to Summerhall, so is it posdible that Aerys eventually found out that Lyanna was tKotLT and Aerys ordered the three to arrest her, but Rhaegar took her instead to th TOJ to hide her?

Or else what were Dayne and Whent doing away from Aerys to start with?

Wouldn't they have to have Aerys permission to accompany Rhaegar on the day of the abduction?

[stateofdissipation]

Prophesy never turns out right in these books .... :)

patchface's prophecy of the red wedding

Maggy's prophecy.. marry a king, have 3 children

Jojen's sea coming to Winterfell

Never is an awfully lot of time to cover...

and prophecy or history through a crow doesn't seem to be very effective either

[Dagda]

This is something that I've always been unsure on:

When Aerys died, which of his family members was his heir? Did it go to Aegon/Jon even though Rhaegar was dead and was never king, or was it Viserys' as his eldest living son?

Big argument on this one. Short answer Jon is legit a Prince, then it would be Jon. If Viserys was of majority, things get sticky.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Had Rhaegar gone out of his wits?.

Compared to the wits of Mad King Aerys? Sure Rhaegar was a secretive Targ...

[Ygrain]

In terms of deciding, I'm not so sure about Dayne. I think if it ever came down to where loyalties lie, Dayne would be willing to interpret in favor of Rhaegar, whereas Hightower and Selmy would want to follow the orders only so far as the broadest interpretation would allow, and no further (ie., royal child ok, not mistress).

I agree with your assessment of Dayne, and I think that he was very conflicted about his honour and his vows:

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

I think that the sadness here indicates that Dayne was forced by his vows into something he very much didn't want to do but he was trapped in the concept of honour that didn't allow him a way out. What I find interesting is that the second quote is Jaime's PoV (his dream on the weirwood) and I wonder what he might know about the source of Arthur's sadness.

Furthermore, Arthur's sadness is reflected in Ned's own attitude to the ToJ fight:

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

I believe that Ned's respect and sadness for Dayne stems from the fact that they were both men of honour, acting by the same codes. Given that Ned considers the three KG shining examples of what the KG should be, for me it can mean only one thing: that they died true to their vows.

[Ygrain]

I still have questions as to Dayne and Whents presence with Rhaegar prior to the "abduction."

He didn't always have them 24/7 since he went alone to Summerhall, so is it posdible that Aerys eventually found out that Lyanna was tKotLT and Aerys ordered the three to arrest her, but Rhaegar took her instead to th TOJ to hide her?

Or else what were Dayne and Whent doing away from Aerys to start with?

Wouldn't they have to have Aerys permission to accompany Rhaegar on the day of the abduction?

I think they were assigned as Rhaegar's personal bodyguards, the same as Arys was assigned to Myrcella, perhaps permanently.

I'm not exactly disagreeing .... It's just odd that you have such a concentration around one person. I doubt that Rhaegar had KG protection at all times when he was camping out at Sumerhall, and he was second in line. I know, no war, but the world of Westeros is still a dangerous place.

Why? There were seven KG altogether, one or two could easily be spared to travel with Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

I think they were assigned as Rhaegar's personal bodyguards, the same as Arys was assigned to Myrcella, perhaps permanently.

Why? There were seven KG altogether, one or two could easily be spared to travel with Rhaegar.

Thanks! And good catch on Varys :)

[Ygrain]

Thanks! And good catch on Varys :)

:-)

I must say I'm becoming more and more intrigued with Varys and his possible involvement. You know, the whole abduction and disappearance seems so much out of character for Rhaegar - were it the wild wolf, I wouldn't bat a lash, but for someone supposedly very intelligent, dutiful and deliberate, it rubs me the wrong way. Somehow, I'd rather see Rhaegar making a detailed plan and setting in motion some preparations to mitigate the anticipated problems (and putting it all down in precise handwriting with diagrams :D). If he did make some arrangements, though, then Varys is exactly the right person to thwart them.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

:-)

I must say I'm becoming more and more intrigued with Varys and his possible involvement. You know, the whole abduction and disappearance seems so much out of character for Rhaegar - were it the wild wolf, I wouldn't bat a lash, but for someone supposedly very intelligent, dutiful and deliberate, it rubs me the wrong way. Somehow, I'd rather see Rhaegar making a detailed plan and setting in motion some preparations to mitigate the anticipated problems (and putting it all down in precise handwriting with diagrams :D). If he did make some arrangements, though, then Varys is exactly the right person to thwart them.

Another link for you then Ygrain! :D

We had a good discussion about Varys (in general and wrt Ned) here. The closer you look, the more interesting he becomes, and I could see him being much more involved in R+L than anyone has ever suspected, and that without compromising my conviction that it all started as a rescue operation ;)

[Alia of the knife]

:-)

I must say I'm becoming more and more intrigued with Varys and his possible involvement. You know, the whole abduction and disappearance seems so much out of character for Rhaegar - were it the wild wolf, I wouldn't bat a lash, but for someone supposedly very intelligent, dutiful and deliberate, it rubs me the wrong way. Somehow, I'd rather see Rhaegar making a detailed plan and setting in motion some preparations to mitigate the anticipated problems (and putting it all down in precise handwriting with diagrams :D). If he did make some arrangements, though, then Varys is exactly the right person to thwart them.

Lol, I understand, which is why I get hives over the whole KG discussion , (they need "The Three Laws"). :)

But Varys wanting to neutralize or eliminate the one Targaryen who could revitalize and strengthen their line makes sense if he is a Blackfyre agent.

[FrozenFire3]

Lol, I understand, which is why I get hives over the whole KG discussion , (they need "The Three Laws"). :)

But Varys wanting to neutralize or eliminate the one Targaryen who could revitalize and strengthen their line makes sense if he is a Blackfyre agent.

Or a Blackfyre agent AND a Aerion's descendant ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Or a Blackfyre agent AND a Aerion's descendant ;)

True. I don't think we've seen the last of the blood of Aerion Brightflame whose brother Egg, shaved his head to hide his most obvious Targaryen trait.:)

[stateofdissipation]

I hope I do not presume too much if I say on MtnLion's behalf that that while the KG are not required to guard every single royal, someone being royal/wedded into the family is valid grounds to grant them KG protection (we have Barristan's musing that he wouldhave to protect Hizdahr if Dany ordered him to)

Let me show you an example:

Either an epic reading comprehension claim, or deliberate trolling.

Are there examples of polygamous behaviour, both present and the past, referenced in the text? - Yes. Aegon and his sister-wives, Craster and his daughters-wives, Ygon Oldfather and his eighteen wives (north of the wall)

Are these examples known/witnessed by people who do not indulge in the practice? - Yes. Aegon as a founder of the kingdom is a well-known figure and his family arrangements are referenced several times by various PoVs. Craster's arrangements are well-known to the Watch, whose members at that point are solely from the Seven Kingdoms. Ygon's family situation is mentioned by Jon to Marsh and Yarwyck.

Is the practice commented on negatively? - No Not a single person makes any negative comment on polygamy, anywhere.

Aegon and his sister-wives are an example of past polygamous behavior.

Craster and his daughters-wives, Ygon Oldfather and his eighteen wives, and Kahl Jommo are the given examples of present polygamous behavior

The North goes from the wall to the Reach. north of the wall is not part of the seven kingdoms. there is no reason to include north of the wall and exclude the Dorthraki

There are examples of past polygamous behavior in Seven kingdoms. There are present examples of polygamous behavior outside the Seven Kingdoms.

Are these examples known/witnessed by people who do not indulge in the practice? - Yes. Aegon as a founder of the kingdom is a well-known figure and his family arrangements are referenced several times by various PoVs. Craster's arrangements are well-known to the Watch, whose members at that point are solely from the Seven Kingdoms. Ygon's family situation is mentioned by Jon to Marsh and Yarwyck.

Aegon as a founder of the kingdom is a well-known figure and his family arrangements are referenced several times by various PoVs:

Ageon the Conqueror was known/wittnessed in Westeros. by various PoV's.

Craster's arrangements are well-known to the Watch, whose members at that point are solely from the Seven Kingdoms. Ygon's family situation is mentioned by Jon to Marsh and Yarwyck.

Kahl Jommo has four wives well-known to Dany and Jorah who are from the Seven Kingdoms.

There are no examples known/witnessed of people from the Seven Kingdoms practicing polygamy by people who do or do not engage in the practice of polygamy. There are examples of people from the Seven Kingdoms knowing/wittnessing practices of polygamy outside of the Seven Kingdoms.

The original post is inaccurate and misleading. I gave it the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was a genuine mistake.

[MtnLion]

Rework this part please. Your logic here would have KG guarding all the royals. Dorne was Targ loyalist, so although they wouldn't want a Stark wife, it was safely away from conflict until KL's sack.

Ygrain gave a portion of the answer. Elia is a member of the royal family, but whether her brother is relies on the definition that GRRM wants to put on it. I am paraphrasing what GRRM has said in SSM and what is written in the books. Of course if there is only one Kingsguard available, his priority would be the king. Barristan implies that he would be required to protect Daenerys' husband if ordered to do so, at the expense of Daenerys going without his protection. Then you need to contemplate how Myrcella deserved Arys Oakheart. ;)

When I read in Game of Thrones that Aegon took his two sisters to wife, I made the logical assumption that the first one died before he married the second because there is no hint of polygamy in Game of Thrones. Instead, there is the very prominent example of Walder Frey, who was married 8 times but never to two women at the same time.

You are making an assumption with Walder Frey, it is not explicit that he never had two wives at the same time. While it is pretty straightforward that in a single sentence Aegon took his sisters to wife.

[MtnLion]

How do you feel about the fact Ned had to marry his dead brother's fiancé?

This isn't about the patriarchy. Ned had to give up marrying the mother of his child (Ashara) for the sake of a military alliance.

Boo-hoo for Lyanna. Her desire not to marry Robert prevented Ned from marrying the love of his life/mother of his child.

This is absolutely false. Ned reflects that sexual encounters outside of his marriage were not something that could be accused of him.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I agree with what you say here.

An aside from your post - I believe Blood is more important than titles. Blood is a motif GRRM uses throughout aSoIaF. So when it comes down to it, Jon being a legitimate son is not the forefront of his story arc. It is about his blood and his foundation. Jon can make his way, to wherever he needs to be, as a bastard.

I think Jon's bastardy is one of the crucial elements in Martin's overall story, however it ends. And in many ways it provides a more powerful story-telling link to the kingship mythologies of his source material than Targaryen legitimacy itself ever could.

"Legitimacy" is a social and political construct - and the social/political regime under which Jon might have been heir has come to an end. But the notion of any "divine right" kingship rests heavily on the power of mystery - and so long as he remains a bastard, Jon's story has that in spades.

(To your point about the importance of blood, Flagons, many ancient and early medieval rulers appealed to half-blooded descent from the gods as justification for their rule.)

Martin seems to enjoy creating opportunities for his readers to explain away certain mysteries and magic in his story. I just can't help wondering if the circumstances of Jon's birth are being treated the same way.

[MtnLion]

And "mistresses and bastards" too, right?

That is the king's prerogative. Now, twist it so that Aerys does it.

[MtnLion]

Fair enough. It just seemed like "troll" has come up a few times lately if someone questions what has been gone over so many times that it's become accepted theory here. But you are better at recognizing trolls than I.

I agree that the KG might decide to protect someone if that person were part of the royal family.

Also, I think it's important that Rhaegar and Dayne were supposedly the best of friends. Dayne is painted as this shining paragon, and perhaps that's so. However, I'm reminded of Jaime's musings:

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

I often wonder if Dayne would have done what he thought best for Rhaegar no matter what the orders from Aerys. Really, I've pretty much concluded that Dayne was mainly taking his orders from Rhaegar, and likely had been for some time prior to the Tourney at Harrenhal. Which makes me wonder about the other KG.

That is why the key to the scene is Lord Commander Hightower. Once you understand his personality there is no question. The logistics of having him appear at the tower is interesting, too. He goes to find Rhaegar, and then we find him at the tower, so Rhaegar had to have convinced him, but strictly within the the framework of the Kingsguard mission.

[Alia of the knife]

That is why the key to the scene is Lord Commander Hightower. Once you understand his personality there is no question. The logistics of having him appear at the tower is interesting, too. He goes to find Rhaegar, and then we find him at the tower, so Rhaegar had to have convinced him, but strictly within the the framework of the Kingsguard mission.

I think Jon's bastardy is one of the crucial elements in Martin's overall story, however it ends. And in many ways it provides a more powerful story-telling link to the kingship mythologies of his source material than Targaryen legitimacy itself ever could.

"Legitimacy" is a social and political construct - and the social/political regime under which Jon might have been heir has come to an end. But the notion of any "divine right" kingship rests heavily on the power of mystery - and so long as he remains a bastard, Jon's story has that in spades.

(To your point about the importance of blood, Flagons, many ancient and early medieval rulers appealed to half-blooded descent from the gods as justification for their rule.)

Martin seems to enjoy creating opportunities for his readers to explain away certain mysteries and magic in his story. I just can't help wondering if the circumstances of Jon's birth are being treated the same way.

@Snowfyre Chorus

While I'm a believer of Jon legitimacy, you make really great points, and "the Divine right of Kings" sounds similar to "Blood of the Dragons," referencing almost the same sense of mysticism.

Certainly being a bastard didn't hold William the Conqueror back and his birth was supposedly "prophesied. "

(Lets just hope if Jon ever marrys, the proposal goes better than William and Matildas). :)