Lyse Stark Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Umm LC was told to return Rhaegar by the king.Rhaegar refuses to go unless LC remains and guards the tower until his return...LC agrees... or violates the order from the king to get Rhaegar back... same end no royal family and no wedding It is only a need to create Jon Twist.... the orphan boy that suffers through a rough childhood to find out he is secretly noble. Nothing suggests or hints at a wedding...If there was Lyanna was Princess dowager and mother of the king. She was also the only adult in the royal family present. Yet she let her son's KG die in a fight to the death against her brother (1 of 2 of her living relatives)... Rhaegar's orders make more sense... Jon Snow is an orphan bastard..... Jon Twist is a figment of fandom's overactive imagination and lack of creativity......Well then we will be laughing our ass off at you if GRRM shows Rhaegar and Lyanna married in front of the weirwoods at the Isle of Face as part of Bran's visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Just had an odd thought. One of the girls with Daenerys mentions the ghost grass near Asshai that is white possibly covering the entire world. I don't recall the Dothraki ever encountering snow, and knowing what that white stuff on the ground would be. My assumption at this point is that we have another prophecy with the Dothraki about the Prince that was Promised . . . Oooh, that is an intriguing thought! Umm LC was told to return Rhaegar by the king. Rhaegar refuses to go unless LC remains and guards the tower until his return... LC agrees... or violates the order from the king to get Rhaegar back... same end no royal family and no wedding It is only a need to create Jon Twist.... the orphan boy that suffers through a rough childhood to find out he is secretly noble. Nothing suggests or hints at a wedding... If there was Lyanna was Princess dowager and mother of the king. She was also the only adult in the royal family present. Yet she let her son's KG die in a fight to the death against her brother (1 of 2 of her living relatives)... Rhaegar's orders make more sense... Jon Snow is an orphan bastard..... Jon Twist is a figment of fandom's overactive imagination and lack of creativity...... Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why the three KG were ordered to stay at ToJ may not be the same as the reason why they stay after they received the news of the Sack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Umm LC was told to return Rhaegar by the king. Rhaegar refuses to go unless LC remains and guards the tower until his return... LC agrees... or violates the order from the king to get Rhaegar back... same end no royal family and no wedding It is only a need to create Jon Twist.... the orphan boy that suffers through a rough childhood to find out he is secretly noble. Nothing suggests or hints at a wedding... If there was Lyanna was Princess dowager and mother of the king. She was also the only adult in the royal family present. Yet she let her son's KG die in a fight to the death against her brother (1 of 2 of her living relatives)... Rhaegar's orders make more sense... Jon Snow is an orphan bastard..... Jon Twist is a figment of fandom's overactive imagination and lack of creativity...... No, the Lord Commander is not going to blindly follow the prince's orders when he has been given an order by the king. The first question he is going to ask is what he is to guard, and it certainly isn't the tower. The second question he is going to ask is why he should guard someone that is not a member of the royal family. Are you starting to think like the Lord Commander, yet? It is important that you view the story through each perspective to truly understand what GRRM is telling us. They are not cardboard cutouts that blindly follow orders, and that is why such and old story holds my interest. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Okay, scootin' in here to make a comment on Lyannas status.One really significant clue is the statue that Ned erects in the crypts of Winterfell, where only the past Kings of Winter and later lords of WF have them.Their wives don't have any, so why Lyanna?unless...(Okay, back to the smallclothes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Maybe this would be more proper for the "what you think of Rhaegar" thread, but I was doing some random re-reading these days and I figured out something not odd but unusual about him. We know that the fact that Ned Stark doesn't speak ill of the guy who "raped" his sister is a bit of indicative that he didn't in fact, kidnapped her nor raped her as everybody else seems to think. And if there is something true about it, I think there are two more important people who doesn't say anything about it while they should: OberynOberyn marched KL with all the intention of revenge his sister and he has every right. Yet, while he wants the heads of those who killed her, the Lannisters, he says nothing about Rhaegar, the one who dishonoured his sister by cheating on her with a Northern girl. Of course, we could say "he says nothing because Rhaegar is dead", but Oberyn was part of Doran's plan involving marrying his niece to Viserys, the brother of the one who left his sister in KL as a hostage while he ran away with his lover girl. We know how hot blooded Oberyn is and how much he loved Elia, why would he want to help the Targaryens to retake the throne if it was a Targaryen who started all by making fun of his wife? Wouldn't he be saying something like "marrying Arianne to the family who indirectly caused Elia to die? Fuck off, Doran". He didn't say anything like it. Jon Connington.Unlike Oberyn, we still might have a few POVs with him but so far, he hasn't made one single mention of Lyanna when he remembered Rhaegar. He, in fact, remembered Elia and said he wasn't worthy of his "silver prince", but then, who is worthy? Lyanna? Was he "comparing" both ladies or was a random thought? We know he was Aerys' hand so he probably wasn't around Rhaegar after he "kidnapped" Lyanna but he, as many other people, knew what happened in KL when Brandon and Rickard arrived and got killed and he knew the alleged kidnapping was what started all. But he says not one single thing about it, he actually blamed himself because he lost Robert and hence, allowed the Robellion to win. Denial or he knows something we don't know? While I think that R+L=J has a 95% chances to be true (the other 5% could be a plot-twist that GRRM might pull at the end, who knows), I find strange that Oberyn or JonCon acted like the kidnapping never actually happened or Rhaegar did nothing wrong at all. And even if Lyanna left her home willingly, they seemed to simply toss it aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Okay, scootin' in here to make a comment on Lyannas status.One really significant clue is the statue that Ned erects in the crypts of Winterfell, where only the past Kings of Winter and later lords of WF have them.Their wives don't have any, so why Lyanna?unless...(Okay, back to the smallclothes). Yeah, tell me about what is or isn't "carved in stone"Oh, wait... PS. Even if the true reason is that "he loved her so much", doesn't it stand to reason that if he did love her so much, he would try to raise her child as his own?But no, Cat, who is a victim of all these circumstances makes that impossible. "Broken promises" and what not. And a parallel of what he did when he was in the dungeon? Confess his crimes, even though they did not exist, to save his loved ones? And on an unrelated note - "We swore a vow" = / = "We are obeying orders". The order of the prince is not a vow. Those words have different meanings. They explicitly say they are not obeying an order from the prince by doing this. So, it's either they're fulfilling their primary vow at the moment, or just lying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Just had an odd thought. One of the girls with Daenerys mentions the ghost grass near Asshai that is white possibly covering the entire world. I don't recall the Dothraki ever encountering snow, and knowing what that white stuff on the ground would be. My assumption at this point is that we have another prophecy with the Dothraki about the Prince that was Promised . . . Hmm, I like the idea. Gotta fetch you the two quotes I could find in a hurry: Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end." -- this is Ser Jorah, very early in AGoT 23 Daenerys III which is quite fit for you proposal, and another but so much less helpful mention: Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. -- Xaro Xhoan Daxos early in ACoK 63 Daenerys V Which may or may not mean something, depending on the Garden of Gehane being in Qarth or somewhere else. That's not in the text though :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 No, the Lord Commander is not going to blindly follow the prince's orders when he has been given an order by the king. The first question he is going to ask is what he is to guard, and it certainly isn't the tower. The second question he is going to ask is why he should guard someone that is not a member of the royal family. Are you starting to think like the Lord Commander, yet? It is important that you view the story through each perspective to truly understand what GRRM is telling us. They are not cardboard cutouts that blindly follow orders, and that is why such and old story holds my interest. ;) well i won't engage in conjecture to support a desire to have Jon Twist sitting on the Iron Throne.... if that means that i am not starting to think like a LC i guess I am not. The lord commander having a primary directive of protecting the third in line to the throne... is just silly That only happens if we accept assumption that Lyanna had already given birth and the baby was in fact an heir. That required Lyanna to lay in her bed of blood while Rhaegar went to the trident and died, Kingslanding was sacked, the siege of storms end was lifted, and Ned rode to the Tower of Joy..... No wonder she died of a fever... probably was dissentary... Ned probably found them from the smell... and the KG were outside because they would throw up if they entered..I do admit that that scenario gives some depth to the KG. Gross depth but depth none the less. You can't get more cookie cutter and cliched than Oliver Snow and Jon Twist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Okay, scootin' in here to make a comment on Lyannas status.One really significant clue is the statue that Ned erects in the crypts of Winterfell, where only the past Kings of Winter and later lords of WF have them.Their wives don't have any, so why Lyanna?unless...(Okay, back to the smallclothes).Unless he promised... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 well i won't engage in conjecture to support a desire to have Jon Twist sitting on the Iron Throne.... if that means that i am not starting to think like a LC i guess I am not. The lord commander having a primary directive of protecting the third in line to the throne... is just sillyThat only happens if we accept assumption that Lyanna had already given birth and the baby was in fact an heir. That required Lyanna to lay in her bed of blood while Rhaegar went to the trident and died, Kingslanding was sacked, the siege of storms end was lifted, and Ned rode to the Tower of Joy..... No wonder she died of a fever... probably was dissentary... Ned probably found them from the smell... and the KG were outside because they would throw up if they entered..I do admit that that scenario gives some depth to the KG. Gross depth but depth none the less. You can't get more cookie cutter and cliched than Oliver Snow and Jon Twist...Pfffft. Nothing is new; Jon Snow's secret royal isn't cliched if GRRM make something new from it. So why call it cliche? The secret heir returns is a very old theme, and it's Older than Feudalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Yeah, tell me about what is or isn't "carved in stone" Oh, wait... PS. Even if the true reason is that "he loved her so much", doesn't it stand to reason that if he did love her so much, he would try to raise her child as his own? But no, Cat, who is a victim of all these circumstances makes that impossible. "Broken promises" and what not. And a parallel of what he did when he was in the dungeon? Confess his crimes, even though they did not exist, to save his loved ones? And on an unrelated note - "We swore a vow" = / = "We are obeying orders". The order of the prince is not a vow. Those words have different meanings. They explicitly say they are not obeying an order from the prince by doing this. So, it's either they're fulfilling their primary vow at the moment, or just lying... They swore a vow to obey orders.... Arthur Dayne: We swore to obey him (Aerys) not to judge him. So yes vow does=obey orders. Now the last confirmed order from the king was to get Rhaegar back to KL.... Rhaegar could have refused to go unless the LC swore to defend the tower until he returned. To obey the king's orders the LC would have to swear a vow to the prince.... many and many and many other conjectures that are all equally valid.... the one most seem determined to believe in spite of a complete lack of evidence and contradicting facts is that the best GRRM could do is to copy Oliver Twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 They swore a vow to obey orders.... Arthur Dayne: We swore to obey him (Aerys) not to judge him. So yes vow does=obey orders.Now the last confirmed order from the king was to get Rhaegar back to KL....Rhaegar could have refused to go unless the LC swore to defend the tower until he returned. To obey the king's orders the LC would have to swear a vow to the prince.... many and many and many other conjectures that are all equally valid.... the one most seem determined to believe in spite of a complete lack of evidence and contradicting facts is that the best GRRM could do is to copy Oliver TwistYou think GRRM is copying Oliver Twist? I say he is putting a whole new spin on the hidden heir trope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmendrick Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I'd be surprised if this hasn't been mentioned before, but just in case .... Check out this line, from Ned's ToJ dream: Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. AGoT, Ned X. Obviously, on one level, Ser Oswell is just sharpening his sword. But this sentence may also have a deeper meaning, given that it appears just before (same page in my edition) Ser Arthur's famous line: “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. The Kingsguard do not bend their knees easily. And yet, when Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy, he finds a member of the Kingsguard "on one knee." Perhaps a hint that there's someone in the tower for whom the Kingsguard will bend the knee? It may also be worth noting that the one doing the kneeling is the member of the KG who took an active role in arraigning the tournament where Rhaegar and Lyanna met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Whent and Dayne were present when Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna. My assumption - it was not because Rhaegar could not handle the task, but because he wanted them to witness their wedding.Hightower was sent there to fetch Rhaegar. One thing that he didn't know at the time, though, is that there was a royal heir to be born. That's why he stayed - not specifically because Rhaegar ordered him and he was a puppet of whoever royal member was closer, but because Rhaegar's order did not interfere with his primary vow. .Jon, at that moment, would have been third in line. Dayne and Whent could have been left in place, but Hightower had vow business elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I'd be surprised if this hasn't been mentioned before, but just in case .... Check out this line, from Ned's ToJ dream: Obviously, on one level, Ser Oswell is just sharpening his sword. But this sentence may also have a deeper meaning, given that it appears just before (same page in my edition) Ser Arthur's famous line: The Kingsguard do not bend their knees easily. And yet, when Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy, he finds a member of the Kingsguard "on one knee." Perhaps a hint that there's someone in the tower for whom the Kingsguard will bend the knee? It may also be worth noting that the one doing the kneeling is the member of the KG who took an active role in arraigning the tournament where Rhaegar and Lyanna met.Good catch! The point that the Kingsguard will not bend their knees to anyone but their true king. And that happens to be Jon. But the fact that when Ned took Jon from Lyanna's dying arms after he defeated the Kingsguard, he was forced to keep a promise to her.And that promise? To protect Jon. Hence the title The Prince that was Promised can apply to Jon, as he is a prince(or king) who life was spared because of a promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 They swore a vow to obey orders.... Arthur Dayne: We swore to obey him (Aerys) not to judge him. So yes vow does=obey orders. Now the last confirmed order from the king was to get Rhaegar back to KL.... Rhaegar could have refused to go unless the LC swore to defend the tower until he returned. To obey the king's orders the LC would have to swear a vow to the prince.... many and many and many other conjectures that are all equally valid.... the one most seem determined to believe in spite of a complete lack of evidence and contradicting facts is that the best GRRM could do is to copy Oliver Twist That was Hightower, not Dayne. Pray, how does obeying orders relieve of fulfilling the first duty when there are no other KG available? BTW, are you somehow traumatized by the Oliver Twist story that you keep bringing it up? Because, you know, it's not like it is the only story with a hidden heir, that one was old even before Arthur pulled the Excalibut out of stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Pfffft. Nothing is new; Jon Snow's secret royal isn't cliched if GRRM make something new from it. So why call it cliche? The secret heir returns is a very old theme, and it's Older than Feudalism. Orphan... sad childhood... seceretly of noble blood. Oliver Twist or Jon Snow... makes no difference they are the same...He should have him marry the princess and the pea Aerys, Aegon, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis as a claimant, Dany as a claimant, FAgeon as a claimant.... The Iron Throne has enough holders and claimants... The prince that was promised... now that is a story line.... We do not know the rules of inheretence and titles in Valyria... where the prophecy was made... It is certain that they did not include a marriage in the faith of the seven or the old gods... so Jon's legitimacy in Westeros is irrelevant.... Rhaegar believed his son was going to be the prince that was promised Jon Snow was born under the protection of the bleeding Arthur Dayne of Starfell. Mel asks for a glimpse of AA and all Rhollar shows her is Snow.... Jon is a warrior Dany is the Queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 It would need to be Rhaegar, since the last order that LC Hightower had was to return Rhaegar to the Red Keep. So Hightower violated his vows? You stated that Rhaegar and LC didn't have a friendship relationship as Rhaegar did with some of the others, if so then he was either going rogue or under orders from the living King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Jon, at that moment, would have been third in line. Dayne and Whent could have been left in place, but Hightower had vow business elsewhere.But when Aegon and Aerys was murdered, then Jon suddenly became first in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 You think GRRM is copying Oliver Twist? I say he is putting a whole new spin on the hidden heir trope. Orphan raised without knowing who he really is. People are mean to him. He has to go into servitude. Then (if R married L) he is discovered to be of Noble Blood... sorry kind of missed the spin on that.... seems like a pretty straight line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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