If there's power in king's blood why doesn't Melisandre sacrifice Shireen

[Crowzeye]

There's power in king's blood and Shireen is a princess of the rightful king of Westeros and I believe sacrificing your own blood who has king's blood will work best.

This is the first topic i have started...please share your views.

[ThePrinceWhoisFlummoxed]

Hmm . . . I hadn't thought of that. Makes me wonder whether things may not go there.

[Dananias]

She may have suggested it, but Stannis would never allow it.

[Crowzeye]

She may have suggested it, but Stannis would never allow it.

Stannis has no shred of honour left if he's willing to sacrifice others but not his daughter

[Ko Rakharo]

Stannis has no shred of honour left if he's willing to sacrifice others but not her daughter.

There is no honour in harming your own blood. Heck, that's a wicked sense of honour. But I know what you mean, it's rather unfair.

Also, if Stannis wanted so bad to pretend he's Azor Ahai, who would be better than his closest blood to sacrifice? I don't know, from a Westerosi point of view, if that would be right.

In real world, I see no honour or character in someone who sacrifices their own child.

[JCRB's Honeypot]

Because Shireen is his only heir. Why would he hurt the only one able to carry the Baratheon name if after his death, there will be more war and fights over who gets the crown?

[Crowzeye]

Stannis said "I like this no more than you do but my duty is to the realm."

And just as Melisandre said "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns..."

Again Stannis said "Sacrifice is never easy,Davos.Or it is no true sacrifice."

What can be a truer sacrifice than sacrificing your own heir and someone you love.That's how Lightbribger came to be Sacrifice of a Loved One.

[Crowzeye]

There is no honour in harming your own blood. Heck, that's a wicked sense of honour. But I know what you mean, it's rather unfair.

Also, if Stannis wanted so bad to pretend he's Azor Ahai, who would be better than his closest blood to sacrifice? I don't know, from a Westerosi point of view, if that would be right.

In real world, I see no honour or character in someone who sacrifices their own child.

If you believe in the Bible stories then you know Abraham almost did...lol

[Heidrun]

If you believe in the Bible stories then you know Abraham almost did...lol

I was thinking that about Abraham and Isaac. If that happens, hopefully the Mother decsends, admonishes Stannis for harming the little children and Melisandre is there to witness it.

Though GRRM hasn't shied away from children dying--in rather gruesome ways--he may not cross over that line of killing your own child. Although Frey's response to Catelyn when she had a knife at his grandson's throat was basically, "I can have more." It was changed to an adult wife in the TV show, which the writers probably admitted that it was less horrible to do that to a grown woman rather than a child.

[Ko Rakharo]

If you believe in the Bible stories then you know Abraham almost did...lol

Well I don't much, and not trying to bring pepper to the chocolate but some Biblical stories could have shifted places with GRRM's writings and no one would say either one got less believable. I see the Bible as a metaphorical guide of ethics for the age it was written in (basically the opposite of ASoIaF for the age it is being written in).

I was thinking that about Abraham and Isaac. If that happens, hopefully the Mother decsends, admonishes Stannis for harming the little children and Melisandre is there to witness it.

Though GRRM hasn't shied away from children dying--in rather gruesome ways--he may not cross over that line of killing your own child. Although Frey's response to Catelyn when she had a knife at his grandson's throat was basically, "I can have more." It was changed to an adult wife in the TV show, which the writers probably admitted that it was less horrible to do that to a grown woman rather than a child.

Didn't Catelyn threat 50-or-so-year-old mentally ill Frey grandson?

[Heidrun]

She may have. I borrowed the book from the library so I don't have it handy to look it up. Anyone have a copy so they can confirm?

[JCRB's Honeypot]

She may have. I borrowed the book from the library so I don't have it handy to look it up. Anyone have a copy so they can confirm?

Yep. Jinglebell was in his 50s but he was a mentally ill man. I guess they replaced him with a women because they didn't want to include a mentally ill person to be killed and a capable men would be unbelievable for Cat to take down.

[bossun05]

Yep. Jinglebell was in his 50s but he was a mentally ill man. I guess they replaced him with a women because they didn't want to include a mentally ill person to be killed and a capable men would be unbelievable for Cat to take down.

in the books, frey was over 90..

as for the question,i think they needed king's blood or direct descendant of the king. even though stannis declared himself a king, the seven kingdoms need to proclaim himself as the one true king of westeros by sitting on the iron throne, only then shireen will have king's blood and be worthy to be a sacrifice.

[Aerys Frost]

Kings Blood is sketchy, I think. Most of the major houses were Kings when there were 7 separate kingdoms. Does theirs count?

Even if a man must be anointed and sit the throne to officially have 'Kings Blood', how does that change their childrens blood? "The leeches we took yesterday won't work, but if we use more today, thwy might."

[Crowzeye]

in the books, frey was over 90..

as for the question,i think they needed king's blood or direct descendant of the king. even though stannis declared himself a king, the seven kingdoms need to proclaim himself as the one true king of westeros by sitting on the iron throne, only then shireen will have king's blood and be worthy to be a sacrifice.

All the liege families were Kings before the Conquest except the Boltons, Baelishs and Tyrells so any of their descendant will work? Heh

[SidheKnight]

I thought about this, and the reasons I came with are:

1) Stannis is not recognized as "The King" like Robert was. When everyone can claim themselves King of something, the title means nothing. For his daughter to have "true" King's blood, Stannis should be the one sitting on the Iron Throne, a.k.a the King not only in name but also in practice. (So, using Robb Stark's blood or Theon Greyjoy's wouldn't have worked either, nor any of the Lords Paramount's blood).

2) When trying to justify why Edric must burn, Stannis mentions that the boy is kind of dangerous, or somehow "cursed". I don't buy that, but it bears mentioning.

3) It is also worth mentioning that Stannis fights as much as he can against the idea of burning Edric. It took a lot of pressure by his wife and Melissandre to finally give in and sacrifice the boy. He really doesn't want to sacrifice him, it's not fair, and only when the greater good comes into the picture he even considers the idea. Not his greater good, but that of the people.

I haven't finished A Storm of Swords yet, but I believe Stannis is not only the rightful King, but he would also be the best King: He is fair, just, and most of all: He doesn't want to be the King. A wise wizard once said (minor spoiler for the last Harry Potter book):

“It is a curious thing, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well.”

The same seems to be true for

Jon Snow as leader of the Night's Watch defending the wall

P.S: This is my first post in this forum, I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

[Margaret Ballinger]

SidheKnight - Welcome to the forums! I'm fairly new myself, but at least you know how to do that spoiler hide, I haven't figured that out yet. :p

In an interview with GRRM he mentioned that he was a little put off that Lord of the Rings didn't have any religion in it. Every culture throughout history has their beliefs. So since he was raised Catholic he took the Trinity and made it seven. The first time I read the books I was sort of shallow, but after I watched his interview I realized there was more layers to his story going on. I have been re-reading the books at a much slower pace, and taking notes of certain subjects and characters.

Melisandre wants to burn the other religions and sacrifice the innocent. Stannis was raised up in, and I think still believes in, the Faith of the Seven because you can see him struggle to fully accept Lord of Light. Also his new religion won't sit well with most of Westeros who believe in the 7. And if Stannis sits the iron throne, I wouldn't put it past her or his wife to try to pressure him to burn down the Sept of Baelor.

Personally I think that Melisandre is like other cult leaders, she reads about a prophecy and think she has it all figured out. She thinks that she knows all the answers and what her god wants. She has also combined prophecies. The Prince that was Promised is different from Azor Ahai. And they are different than the Last Hero. What if 'the dragon has 3 heads' was meaning that all 3 will have to make a stand? I don't know.

I just believe that she is like the rest of us, she learns one little part of the puzzle and then tries to add in what's missing to make sense of it. So I try not to put too much stock in what she says because she is telling her secondhand version that she keeps changing and 'adding on' as the books go on. She claims that the Faith of the 7 are 'false gods,' yet she attempted to use them to create Lightbringer. Later she will see someone more powerful than her and automatically thinks that person is some great evil to her. Like all cult leaders, competition makes them feel threatened. I'm not saying she's bad, just that she is not 'all knowing' as she believes she is, so I try not to take what she says as gospel unless there is someone other than her, or her parrot Selyse, that also states it.

If 'death must pay for life' then why does it have to be by burning? If Lightbringer will be created when it's used to kill someone, then burning people is not the answer. Maybe someone that is 'undead' will create Lightbringer (turn it on and off so to speak) with their dead blood the way Lord Beric did with his sword? So many questions

And if it has to be king's blood - then which king? Maybe it's not a 'living' king? Perhaps since the prophecy was ancient, it's about the blood descendant of some long ago King?

[Ashara's daughter]

Stannis thinks he already has lightbringer soo he might sacrifice his daughter solely for the power King's blood holds, which might happen as a last resort. And when nothing happens despite the sacrifice he will go insane and kill Mel...at least I think that'd be an interesting turnout

[marsyao]

There's power in king's blood and Shireen is a princess of the rightful king of Westeros and I believe sacrificing your own blood who has king's blood will work best.

This is the first topic i have started...please share your views.

Could that have something to do with Shireen's father? I don't know, just a wild guess

[JLE]

Also, I don't think that "one person sacrificing ANOTHER innocent person" will in the end be the answer. Melisandre is the one barking up the wrong tree here, and I think she's doing so by trying to *replicate* what happened last time instead of thinking of alternative ways.

Here's the rub: Whatever was done to get rid of the Others last time... FAILED. Maybe they were driven away: maybe they retreated of their own accord, or because summer came again (and they don't actually bring the winter, the winter brings them): but they are back again. If you want to beat them permanently, the solution isn't last time's failure, it's something else.

So. Either there's no actual sacrifice at all, or the sacrifice called for is *oneself* - the only life that any person truly has a right to give.