Family inherent magic as it applies to individuals

[LordStoneheart]

I've read Blood from a Bolton but I don't agree at all even though I adore the poster that wrote it... I'm not sure the Boltons count as a family, only as northerners.

[MasterJack]

I've read Blood from a Bolton but I don't agree at all even though I adore the poster that wrote it... I'm not sure the Boltons count as a family, only as northerners.

Varamyr in his prologue showed us it is probably possible to prolong one life by forcefully skinchanging another human. So based on this attemp I am almost certain someone somewhere in westeros succeded to find a way to make it possible. If this is the case, I think Roose would be the best candidate "story-wise" other than ColdHand whoever he truly is.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Hmmm, I tend to think all Starks are Wargs, that it is simply in their blood but that they need to be in close proximity to a Direwolf to awaken the Warging abillity fully. We've seen with each Stark child that the process if unassisted takes time. While Bran has received help via Jojen & BR to fast forward his skills the others have not, its taking longer for them to fully get to grips with the skill. I think Rickon is Warging a lot though as a very young child I think he's less constrained by the idea that warging is a myth, he will have just gone with what was happening to him, his anger and confusion is clearly expressed by Shaggydogs behaviour, Robb I believe was at the same level we left Jon at, so I wonder if he had accepted what he was experiencing? he seems to have been at least a little aware. Jon is in denial and then once he can no longer deny it he is suppressing it, he does not want to be marked out as different than he already is a Bastard. I am inclined to think its very likely that he will grow as a warg through his convalescence. Through sheer time spent laying about unable to get out of bed, he'll reach into Ghost more & more, I think the stabbing might make him jump into Ghost whilst awake for the first time, much in the same way Bran jumped into Hodor without consciously wanting to the first time. And finally I think that Boraq will tutor him with regard to controlling the abillity and learning the "rules" of skinchanging. I agree with Kienn that through his convalescence he will greatly increase his abillity I think he's onto something regarding a period of sensory obliteration having a fast forward effect. Arya makes the leap from dreaming herself in Nymeria to actually jumping into a living animal whilst awake during her period of blindness, but also note that she is being beaten by the KM, she is in physical peril ( though clearly only minor peril.) Bran was in danger too when he jumps into Hodor and Robbs death cry of GreyWind hints that at that moment he too jumps into his wolf...Jon also cries Ghost as he blacks out during the attack. So I think not only sensory repression has the effect of heightening the abillity but that danger causes instinctual leaps which allow the warg to grasp the full extent of their abillity. Sansa is of course left adrift after Lady's death, yet she shows subtle clues that the warg gene is still there still developing, but just slower than if Lady where still alive. She has been without close proximity to any animal in the Red Keep, she is not someone who rides often, and has only just discovered that she likes Hawking, having just the one go at it so far. so far! The other 1st men who show skinchanging and green sight give clues too, Jojen begins his dreams after a bout of fever which nearly kills him, this ties into the theory that danger near death illness which incapacitates you etc jump starts the skill. We learn through Varamyr that wargs can be mentored by an older more experienced one. I do think the 1st men blood is what is vital to enable one to skinchange. But I do think Starks have a strong affinity with the abillity its in the genes with all wargs but Starks have a very strong Warg gene.

Hope all that was legible, its more a jumbled set of thoughts than any sort of well constructed idea. As to Targs well there is clearly some gene there in regards to prophetic dreams, the abillity to bond a dragon and perhaps even to hatch them, but I don't buyany of that BS about fireproof illness proof etc. Its just bravado. Dany clearly gets sick and M/C's at the end of ADWD, she is clearly burnt in the pit. Many Targs have been burnt and died of illness in the history of their dynasty & the Hatching of the eggs was a one off magical event and is not indicative of any kind of abillity of Dany's to be unaffected by fire.

[Kienn]

Jojen begins his dreams after a bout of fever which nearly kills him, this ties into the theory that danger near death illness which incapacitates you etc jump starts the skill.

Ah thanks, I vaguely remembered the Jojen had a near-death experience too but wasn't quite sure.

[unSonofStannis]

Feel free to ignore this thread or not post at all if any of the subjects bother you. It's just my summation of thoughts after much discussion and reading what others have posted.

Summing up any family as a whole is wrong. And it does nothing to help any theories, there are always exceptions. Everything comes down to the potential of the bloodline and the individual. For instance certain members of each family are special, the requirements to being 'special' are;

1. be born into one of the magical families; Starks, Targaryens, Blackfyres, Boltons

2. have the luck to be a member of that family who is able to access the inherent magic that comes from that families bloodline

3. be an individual who makes the right choices to harness that magic.

Like what Butterbumps was saying on her thread about the Boltons, that Roose is actually a lot older than he appears. that the boltons have magic in their family. Roose has taken the right steps to ensure his youthfulness, by blood sacrifice (possibly of his children) and the leeching. Not every member of his family can do this, but he can and he made the right choices to make it work for him.

Not all Starks are wargs, but they do have the warg 'gene'. Some of them are able to access it and some can't. Ned, Benjen, Brandon and Rickard are all not wargs, but obviously the children are. There is argument that Lyanna was, but we will probably never know, but Ned and Lyanna still had the gene to pass to their children, even if they themselves were not wargs.

That's why we can't group any entire family into one 'rule' or 'standard'

Some Targaryens can get sick and they can get burned. They are not (as a whole family) immune to fire or sickness.

However some Targaryens "Have a higher-heat tolerance than ordinary people" (SSM).--Which is a quote that could be interpreted many ways, but I think it is clear that it means that the 'heat-tolerance' varies from Targ to Targ. Dany obviously shows, on many occasions, of being tolerant to 'heat' in the form of fire (in the Pyre, the HOTU and the pit). but then in the pit her skin was in fact blistered by the hot metal spear. So obviously she can be damaged by hot metal, just like Viserys and his crown of gold (there is obviously a difference between fire and hot metal when it applies to Dany, but we don't know about Viserys). And Jon Snow being burned by the lantern fire at The Wall, Jon is a good person and a strong Targaryen, but he shows no signs of the 'higher heat tolerance' like Dany does. I think Dany shows stronger signs of the heat-tolerance than any other Targ we have ever met. Aegon V also shows signs of having a high-tolerance during his travels with Dunk in D&E, but again we have no examples of him around fire specifically, just that he doesn't get hot and sweat the way 'ordinary' people do in the blistering heat of the sun.

It is sort of like an anomaly within the Targaryen family (like Neo). If enough Targ children are born, odds are that a few of them will have just the right genes and make-up that they have a much higher heat tolerance than others and vice-versa, some of them are born with no heat tolerance advantage and no specialities. But even the ones who are born with it, simply having a higher-heat tolerance does not make them superheroes, and anyone on this planet who drinks wildfire will have the same outcome and die. Dany could not drink wildfire, that is just a stupid idea, just as stupid as jumping into a river of lava.

Same thing goes with the sickness immunity, some have it stronger than others. but obviously it is a real thing or it would never be mentioned in the books. Dnay has never been sick, nor caught a disease. She doesn't say it directly but I think it is safe to assume Viserys never did either because Dany never mentions it when she is thinking back on how she never got sick, and if he had gotten sick then she would never be thinking 'members of my family cannot catch disease'. However that does not mean she is completely immune to all health risks in the world. It's not like she had Rhaego then jumped up 5 minutes later to get back on the horse, she was out for days. Just like when she has the miscarriage in DwD, that is a health problem, but not a disease, it was possibly brought on by food poisoning, which she can also get. If I had to guess I would say no virus can live in her body or attach to her cells, but she can have health problems. But there is no evidence that every member of her family is the same as her. Several Targ's died in the Great Spring Sickness.

Does that make sense what I am saying? that there are no 'rules' that apply to entire families, we have a few certain members of each family that have their families 'magic' gene.

What exactly is the hard evidence of magic being in the Bolton family? Just because Roose leeches? Ive heard theories about them and the NK but nothing concrete.

[Mladen]

I would say her hatching the petrified dragons eggs was special, as GRRM called it a miracle. The Targaryens of Westeros hatched their dragon eggs from Balerion and the dragons they brought with them from Valyria. They were fresh, not thousands of years old and turned to stone like Dany's. She literally brought an extinct species back to life, something no one else in her family was able to do for 150 years.

Also, I don't know of any other Targaryens that spent the night in a pyre and survived.

Did she? Make no mistake, I do think she has to have had something with hatching those eggs, but the question remains what exactly she has done. Plus, GRRM said it was miracle, not that Dany did something miracolous. There is a great difference there.

[unSonofStannis]

Did she? Make no mistake, I do think she has to have had something with hatching those eggs, but the question remains what exactly she has done. Plus, GRRM said it was miracle, not that Dany did something miracolous. There is a great difference there.

Good catch never looked at it that way.

[Nictarion]

Did she? Make no mistake, I do think she has to have had something with hatching those eggs, but the question remains what exactly she has done. Plus, GRRM said it was miracle, not that Dany did something miracolous. There is a great difference there.

Surviving the pyre was as much a miracle as hatching the dragons was.

To suggest their is nothing special about her, just seems like dislike of the character. Some people don't want to admit just how important she is. She is connected to the magical elements in the story, between the dragons, her dragon dreams, Quaithe, etc.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that it is aggregation of multiple factors. Blood+extrinsic parameters+timing.

Did she? Make no mistake, I do think she has to have had something with hatching those eggs, but the question remains what exactly she has done. Plus, GRRM said it was miracle, not that Dany did something miracolous. There is a great difference there.

I agree.

[Mladen]

Surviving the pyre was as much a miracle as hatching the dragons was.

To suggest their is nothing special about her, just seems like dislike of the character. Some people don't want to admit just how important she is. She is connected to the magical elements in the story, between the dragons, her dragon dreams, Quaithe, etc.

I am not saying there is nothing special about her... Each character is special on its own particular way. Is Tyrion less special because he is not a warg, or Varys because he is not dragonrider? Characters can be special without any supernatural ability. She is connected to the supernatural element to the story, perhaps or even less as Starks are connected to it. She can be connected to it, but yet without anything supernatural about her personally.

As for pyre, we simply don't know what happened. We can't conclude anything based on the evidence we have now. Perhaps the comet was some sort of facilitator of dragons to be reborn, or it was all Mirri Maz Duur? If we are completely honest about this, Dany didn't exactly know how everything will end. So, again, the event itself was miracle, one-time event that won't happen again, but what Dany did was nothing more than a blind faith that paid off. If she is special in a way that some here suggests, she would be able to do it all over again, and she isn't.

[Nictarion]

As for pyre, we simply don't know what happened. We can't conclude anything based on the evidence we have now. Perhaps the comet was some sort of facilitator of dragons to be reborn, or it was all Mirri Maz Duur?

The poster Parwan wrote a very convincing piece about the pyre a while back. It stated that if it was MMD, it would be some kind of protection spell she learned but got wrong. If it was something she learned, it was taught to her. Meaning it's something that CAN be recreated, and therefore not a miracle. Nope, Dany herself was the special x factor imo.

[Mladen]

The poster Parwan wrote a very convincing piece about the pyre a while back. It stated that if it was MMD, it would be some kind of protection spell she learned but got wrong. If it was something she learned, it was taught to her. Meaning it's something that CAN be recreated, and therefore not a miracle. Nope, Dany herself was the special x factor imo.

Of course it can be repeated, since we know dragons have been hatched long before Daenerys hatched the three of hers. But Targaryens certainly have had some sort of procedure of hatching the dragons, what they need etc... With Daenerys we see none of those things, only a blind faith, plus Martin talking about it as one-time special event. So, while I do believe that under some circumstances, other dragons can be hatched, what happened during Dany's pyre must be something relatively unique and thus I doubt it was just Daenerys.

[Hippocras]

I think there is a cyclical aspect of the magic in the world that needs some consideration.

There is some magic tied to bloodlines, yes. But it fades and grows according to some sort of cosmic process as well. There have been several references made in the books to the magic returning, or growing stronger, unrelated to specific characters or families. For example the pyromancers could suddenly make more wildfire, and the magic of the Warlocks was returning.

So...some people have a certain inherent ability via genetics, but it is latent for many generations while magic in general in the world is weak.

[SeanF]

Of course it can be repeated, since we know dragons have been hatched long before Daenerys hatched the three of hers. But Targaryens certainly have had some sort of procedure of hatching the dragons, what they need etc... With Daenerys we see none of those things, only a blind faith, plus Martin talking about it as one-time special event. So, while I do believe that under some circumstances, other dragons can be hatched, what happened during Dany's pyre must be something relatively unique and thus I doubt it was just Daenerys.

I think that only Dany could have hatched the dragon eggs, at that point, but Dany couldn't have done it unless the time was right for her to her do it. So, she was necessary to make the spell work, but not sufficient for the spell to work.

I suspect the other major element to the spell was human sacrifice, of Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri Maz Duur/

I think that there is always something miraculous about higher forms of magic. It's not something that you can guarantee to work.

[Nictarion]

Of course it can be repeated, since we know dragons have been hatched long before Daenerys hatched the three of hers. But Targaryens certainly have had some sort of procedure of hatching the dragons, what they need etc... With Daenerys we see none of those things, only a blind faith, plus Martin talking about it as one-time special event. So, while I do believe that under some circumstances, other dragons can be hatched, what happened during Dany's pyre must be something relatively unique and thus I doubt it was just Daenerys.

I'm not talking about hatching dragons, im talking about surviving the pyre.

[Hippocras]

I think that only Dany could have hatched the dragon eggs, at that point, but Dany couldn't have done it unless the time was right for her to her do it. So, she was necessary to make the spell work, but not sufficient for the spell to work.

I suspect the other major element to the spell was human sacrifice, of Drogo, Rhaego, and Mirri Maz Duur/

I think that there is always something miraculous about higher forms of magic. It's not something that you can guarantee to work.

Yes, it was blood magic, done at the right time - when the red comet was rising and magic in general in the world was on a cyclical upswing. The others were gone for over a thousand years but there return corresponds to a time of resurging magic in general, making Dany's magic possible.

[Hippocras]

I'm not talking about hatching dragons, im talking about surviving the pyre.

Same as above. It is not just about her, but about her, timing, and sacrifice combined.

[LordStoneheart]

Ugh, I keep deleting because I can't find the right words. I'll say as simple as I can...

I think Dany should be considered special because fate pretty much deems her the one that will bring a lot of change to the world, starting little by little with Drogo, big change with dragons, slavers bay, and whatever she does next... Idk, it might go into AAR territory if I put it that way, and that's a can of soup we all hate to open...

[SeanF]

Yes, it was blood magic, done at the right time - when the red comet was rising and magic in general in the world was on a cyclical upswing. The others were gone for over a thousand years but there return corresponds to a time of resurging magic in general, making Dany's magic possible.

When this was discussed on the re-read thread, I compared it to Bilbo finding the One Ring. Only Bilbo could have found it, but he couldn't have found it unless he was *meant* to find it.

[Mladen]

I'm not talking about hatching dragons, im talking about surviving the pyre.

Same as above. It is not just about her, but about her, timing, and sacrifice combined.

As Hippocras said, it wasn't about her only, because as Martin said, if she would enter any other fire like that, she would be burned. So, there have to be other factors on work too...