4 Letters of ADwD

[jet199]

I keep thinking about the Lord/Lady Dustin thing... what are we to make of this?? Ok, it could be a typo... but what if it is not... could this have any meaning?? Stuff like that makes me crazy.....

It's because she is up to no good. People usually miss-sign on purpose when they want to indicate that they don't agree with what they are signing. as was said above there is no point doing that in the letters to the ironborn but Jon would/should know. The one that gets me is Whoresbane who is supposed to be half trained as a maester but cant sign his name and has to draw a giant, badly. This is either because he ain't really Whoresbane, Whoresbane didn't really go to Oldtown to become a maester or he is also purposely miss-signing. We already know that Manderly is plotting against Roose but almost every other northerner in Winterfell is seems to be up to something as well.

[TheCrannogDweller]

How do we know there is a new maester at WF? Winterfell has been abandon for a while, so I dont think they would have sent one there before the Boltons arrival and they havent been there that long to request one. The Dreadfort maester is with Stannis right? Is there any mention of Manderly or the Freys or anyone bringing theirs along? Plus Ramsay wrote every other letter himself, why not this one too?

Well, we know that Ramsay isn't that educated, so maybe he writes slowly? And he was in a hurry, so he dictated the letter to a maester?

To make myself clear - I believe that Ramsay did write the letter and that the fact Jon doesn't mention his distinct penmanship is due to the fact that he recognizes it. I was simply offering an alternative explanation.

Btw, a yet another alternative explanation might be that

Stannis used the Karstark's maester to feed the Boltons at Winterfell false information. This would explain why Ramsay thinks that Stannis has been beaten and it would also explain why Ramsay thinks Reek has gone to the Wall, when we know that he is actually with Stannis' army.

[Jô Maltese]

It seems more than obvious to me that Mance wrote the Pink letter. He wrote it in a way that would rile Jon up hard core and give him no choice but to come to Winterfell. Ramsay did not write the Pink letter, look at the style and the words he uses, the Pink letter is not the same as the others Ramsay definitely wrote. Also;

1. Ramsay does not like the word Bastard

2. Ramsay does not call Jon 'bastard' in any other letters

3. To my knowledge Ramsay never refers to anyone as bastard during any of his dialogue (I could be wrong about that)

4. When Mance was at at the wall disguised as Rattleshirt he calls Jon 'bastard' several times in exactly the same way as the letter.

5. Mance would have every bit of info that was in the letter, and very few others would have all that info.

6. there was a 'smear' of pink wax used instead of a button, that is because it is not the same person doing it, possibly it was done in haste.

7. Ramsay doesnt ever refer to Stannis as 'the false king' during his time at winterfell when Stannis is marching towards them.

Yes, plus the wording of the letter that very much sounds like Wildling or Mance: 'black crows', 'for all the North to see', 'cut out your heart and eat it' for instance. And I also find the reference to a 'cloak' and 'six skins' very much like Mance winking to Jon (or Tormund?) 'hey, it's me Mance really, not Ramsay'...

[Roadside Rose]

I am not going to debate on who wrote the letter, because those debates don't always end well.

I have to say I agree with you that I don't think Ramsay wrote the letter. The whole point of multiple letters is that GRRM wants us as an audience to 'think' and 'analyze' who wrote it. Like a small game of 'Clue'.

I just wanted to add something to your very good list of observations.

After Asha gets Ramsay's letter at Deepwood Motte, she picks at the pink wax. I believe when Stannis takes her as hostage, it is possible that she still has the pink wax from Ramsay's letter.

“The wolves are all slain.” Asha picked at the pink wax with her thumb-nail. “These are the skinners who slew them.”

[TheCrannogDweller]

In fact, let me expand the earlier hypothesis - I'll put it in spoiler tags because it is drawn mostly on information from the Theon gift chapter.

We know that:

1. The Freys and the Manderlys were sent out by Roose to confront Stannis.

2. The Manderlys are likely to turn their cloaks for Stannis.

3. The Karstarks are supposed to betray Stannis.

4. The Karstarks have a maester with ravens.

5. Stannis discovers and thwarts the Karstark betrayal.

Stannis is also not stupid and he is surrounded by Northerners - so he knows that he cannot take Winterfell by storming it. Let's assume he managed to defeat the Freys and the Manderleys either fought half-heartedly or turned their cloaks. What Stannis has now is an opportunity. He uses the Karstark ravens to inform Winterfell that their forces had defeated him. He then sends the Manderlys back, maybe with some of his own men mixed with them. Their task is to wait for nightfall and open the gates for him.

Meanwhile, not waiting for any palpable evidence and relying on the message from the Karstark raven, Ramsay writes the Pink Letter.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It's because she is up to no good. People usually miss-sign on purpose when they want to indicate that they don't agree with what they are signing. as was said above there is no point doing that in the letters to the ironborn but Jon would/should know. The one that gets me is Whoresbane who is supposed to be half trained as a maester but cant sign his name and has to draw a giant, badly. This is either because he ain't really Whoresbane, Whoresbane didn't really go to Oldtown to become a maester or he is also purposely miss-signing. We already know that Manderly is plotting against Roose but almost every other northerner in Winterfell is seems to be up to something as well.

That's a great point about Whoresbane! I wonder if it's worth noting that Jonella Cerwyn hasn't been seen on the page since she was at Winterfell with her father when Robb called the banners, other than her signature in that letter. She doesn't go to WF from Barrowton with all the others. (Given Ramsay's treatment of another unmarried northwoman, I do fear for her) Also, while there are indeed four Ryswell's present at Barrowton (based on the fact that all four are later at WF), only one of them is a Lord. The other three are his heir and younger sons. The youngest, Roose Ryswell, is mentioned as Roose's namesake, and could be quite young. The question is how much weight were those signatures really supposed to carry? Just to add length to the list of signers? Don't forget there were plenty of other northmen at Barrowton who could have signed, not the least of whom is Harwood Stout, at whose keep Ramsay was staying. If the young Ryswells signed, why not Stout?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yes, plus the wording of the letter that very much sounds like Wildling or Mance: 'black crows', 'for all the North to see', 'cut out your heart and eat it' for instance. And I also find the reference to a 'cloak' and 'six skins' very much like Mance winking to Jon (or Tormund?) 'hey, it's me Mance really, not Ramsay'...

Yes I agree, it's sort of obvious, so obvious that it seems like Mance is trying to hint to Jon who is actually writing the letter. But the info in the letter is so egregious that Jon jumps up to head to Winterfell before thinking clearly, big mistake.

So what are the reasons MAnce has done this?

He obviously wants Jon to come to WF asap, but why?

[the andorran]

Yes I agree, it's sort of obvious, so obvious that it seems like Mance is trying to hint to Jon who is actually writing the letter. But the info in the letter is so egregious that Jon jumps up to head to Winterfell before thinking clearly, big mistake.

So what are the reasons MAnce has done this?

He obviously wants Jon to come to WF asap, but why?

If Mance was trying to give Jon a nudge nudge wink wink that the letter was written by him, why would he have used such inflammatory language all over the place? Jon reacted pretty much exactly as one would expect him to, he was extremely upset and got ready to go to Winterfell immediately.

Now, I don't think that in and of itself proves Mance didn't write it... I just think that deliberately pissing Jon off and leaving clues that require ponderous, detailed, rational, highly analytical thought are at odds with one another. I think if Mance did write it, 'black crows' etc is just his natural speech coming through as he pretends to be Ramsay, not deliberate clues on his part.

That said, I really have no idea who wrote the letter, and find it one of the most puzzling things about the whole series.

[Cubicz]

Ive always supsected that it was Mance simply because he is the only one that knows every detail of the letter -and believes Theon and fArya are missing as far as he knew. Mance couldnt know Stannis had found them. If Ramsay HAD defeated Stannis, he'd HAVE Reek back, and wouldnt ask for him.

Stannis couldnt have wrote it for the simple fact that he thought Mance was dead. He wouldn't have known Mance at Winterfell (iirc Theon didn't know Abel was Mance, so he couldnt convey that information to Stannis even if tortured)

Mance getting Jon to march on Winterfell is machiavellian because it gets his people further south of the wall (which is consistent with a thoery i subscribe to: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1uvltu/spoilers_all_who_really_sent_the_catspaw/

[Mithras]

I think GRRM has the first two letters in different inks to show that the difference between them is easily noticeable. He also has Asha and Jon notice that the handwriting so if different people people wrote the pink letter or the signature was different to the main text then it would have been noticed by Jon when he read the pink letter.

Also even though GRRM doesn't spell it out that the pink letter is written in ink he does have Tormund say "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o’ maester’s ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn’t make it so.” while the letter is being discussed. This is basically hiding the fact that the letter is not written in blood in plain sight. Also the phrase "maester’s ink" is only used in AFFC and ADWD so it has probably been introduced because it is useful to the plot of those books in some way.

This may be the first time Tormund sees a letter because he does not strike us as a bookworm type. Even Jon didnot notice that Ramsay used blood in his first letter. He assumed that it was a brown ink. Thus, a pot o' maester's ink is not conclusive.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Btw, I just re-read the TWOW Theon sample chapter and I'm pretty convinced that the Pink Letter was written by Ramsay.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If Mance was trying to give Jon a nudge nudge wink wink that the letter was written by him, why would he have used such inflammatory language all over the place? Jon reacted pretty much exactly as one would expect him to, he was extremely upset and got ready to go to Winterfell immediately.

Now, I don't think that in and of itself proves Mance didn't write it... I just think that deliberately pissing Jon off and leaving clues that require ponderous, detailed, rational, highly analytical thought are at odds with one another. I think if Mance did write it, 'black crows' etc is just his natural speech coming through as he pretends to be Ramsay, not deliberate clues on his part.

That said, I really have no idea who wrote the letter, and find it one of the most puzzling things about the whole series.

What I meant was, That when mance is pretending to be rattleshirt, he calls Jon Bastard like 5 or 6 times in the same way as the letter. So I was thinking Mance was trying to catch Jon's memory by calling him bastard in the same way like that.

However you are right, that doesn't really make much sense for mance to try to hint to JOn that he, mance, is writing the letter.

I think the main thing is that Mance wants Jon to come to Winterfell right now.

So there is another thread where Ran and Apple Martini are saying that Ramsay definitely wrote the letter because Jon had 2 letters from him previously where the style of writing (big spiky Letters) was mentioned. And that since Jon had seen both of those letters he would recognize Ramsay's handwriting. So even though the 'spiky letters' weren't mentioned whejn Jon read the pink letter it doesnt matter because Jon recognizes Ramsays writing at this point.

Which is a good point Ill admit, but the context of the letter was so threatening to Jon/WF/everything he holds dear, that IMO Jon would not at that point be worried about handwriting. Plus obviously the words do not sound like Ramsay, and I find it hard to believe that anything in the letter is actually accurate. So I am not convinced by 'Jon knew the handwriting'.

[StarlightShoals]

One good reason why Stannis might have written the letter instead of Mance or Ramsay is that Jon would definitely have been considered a deserter if he had gone running off to help Stannis. By positioning Ramsay as a threat to the Watch, Stannis (or Mance, for that matter) would be giving Jon a justification for going to face him in battle. It still didn't work, since Jon got stabbed anyway, but I guess it was worth a shot.

But there are great arguments for why any one of them would have written it~

[OrangeStallion]

What if someone on the wall had contact with Ramsay, and this person was one of the conspirators against Jon, and wanted a surefire way to turn the rest of NW against him. Allister Thorne maybe? Maybe?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This new poster just put this up on another thread and I have to say I agree with him 100%. he is asking the right question at the end, what are Mance's motives......

hoshidoshi, on 14 Mar 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

The reason for Mance mentions Reek and the skin cloaks is because he's pretending to be Ramsay and wants to create Ramsey's voice.

The author is clearly someone who knows some things about Ramsay, but not a lot about Ramsay.

Things he gets right: liking skin cloaks, calling Theon Reek, being Lord of Winterfell, cruel attitude.

Things he gets wrong: chopping heads off and eating hearts instead of flaying, using language like "black crows," Winterfell's wax color, no skin in the letter, handwriting.

On the things Mance gets right, he was actually present for. He heard Ramsey say he wanted to make a skin cloak out of the murderers. He heard people call Theon Reek (and talked to Theon - "I want my bride back, I want my Reek").

On the things Mance gets wrong, they are understandable mistakes considering he's a Wildling attempting to mimick Seven Kingdom speak.

It's pretty clear to me Mance is the author. He's the only name listed, he is the subject of half the letter and the "cage" is clearly to mirror his burning.

On motive:

Imagine you're Mance. You were once "free folk" and now you're the red witch's slave. She has your son and might burn him for her magic. And you're stuck at the Wall where the Others are coming.

The Red Witch sends you to Winterfell to rescue Arya. An assignment that at best leads you back to the Wall as a slave. At worst, you're killed by Ramsay or maybe Stannis.

Not a great deal.

But you do something else. You kill six random people to create some chaos and then pull Theon in your plan. You tell Theon that you're going to escape with him to Stannis, but then you stand him up. After all, going to Stannis at best leads you back to the Wall.

So, now what? You're surrounded by armies and your son is still at the Wall. You need help, but yort only friends are the Wildlngs. But how do you communicate with them? You can only get letters to the Night's Watch. How do you get your Wildlings to come to you.

Or how to do you create chaos with the Night's Watch to allow you to get your son back?

So Is MAnce just doing all this to get his son back and away from Mel? maybe he feels like eventually Stannis will find out he was not burned and will come after him again for being an oath breaker?

I have always said I think Mance is one of, if not the smartest, most clever people in the books.

[OrangeStallion]

This new poster just put this up on another thread and I have to say I agree with him 100%. he is asking the right question at the end, what are Mance's motives......

hoshidoshi, on 14 Mar 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

So Is MAnce just doing all this to get his son back and away from Mel? maybe he feels like eventually Stannis will find out he was not burned and will come after him again for being an oath breaker?

I have always said I think Mance is one of, if not the smartest, most clever people in the books.

I've just been converted hahaha I LOVE this theory

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I've just been converted hahaha I LOVE this theory

Good. If you go back and read the Jon chapter where mance is disguised as Rattleshirt, the dialogue between Jon and fMance, you can clearly see the similarity between that speech and the Pink Letter. :)

[StarlightShoals]

I've just been converted hahaha I LOVE this theory

Me too!!! :laugh:

[TheCrannogDweller]

Plus obviously the words do not sound like Ramsay, and I find it hard to believe that anything in the letter is actually accurate. So I am not convinced by 'Jon knew the handwriting'.

Actually, the words sound exactly like Ramsay and not everything in the letter has to be accurate - it just has to be perceived as such by the author.

Edit: In other words, as far as Ramsay knows everything in the letter is true. And even if something isn't, that still isn't proof that he didn't write it. Unless you claim that Ramsay never lies.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Actually, the words sound exactly like Ramsay and not everything in the letter has to be accurate - it just has to be perceived as such by the author.

Edit: In other words, as far as Ramsay knows everything in the letter is true. And even if something isn't, that still isn't proof that he didn't write it. Unless you claim that Ramsay never lies.

no i know he lies, that is not part of the reason I think ramsay didnt write it. But what part of it 'sounds like' Ramsay in your opinion?