R + L = J v 74

[Ygrain]

yep. If you agree that everything Barristen the Bold says about the Dragonprince to be gospel then continue along the " he read about the tptwp " in a book line and see where it gets you.

well you should have stuck with it! it is the explanation that makes the most logical sense in terms of the text...

I never abandoned it in the first place, it just floats around with all the other equally logical but unsupported ideas.

snip

Nice quoting work, and the one establishing a connection between Rhaegar and GoHH is ...?

[stateofdissipation]

classical unreliable narrator... no one knows what it might have been. ( THE GHOST OF HIGH HEART/ WOODS WITCH OF JENNY OF OLDSTONES WOULD KNOW BECAUSE SHE MADE THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED PROPHECY)

but i am glad you are so easily fooled which makes the books less predictable for you, damn i wish i wasn't so smart...

Most often unreliable narrators are first person narrators, but sometimes third person narrators can also be unreliable. The Narrator in ASoIaF is always the same unnamed invisible third person with the ability to see in to one particular character's mind during a chapter. Selmy is sometimes the narrator is stories internal to the chapter (not exactly a classical narrator).

In Selmy's chapters we do not have him making plainly false or delusional claims or admitting to being severely mentally ill ,(the classcal traits of unreliable narrators.) Selmy is not omnicient or limited omnicient, muchless exceptionally intelligent or perceptive. a reader should take this in to account when introcucing his word as evidence. What Barry says and believes should not be discredited out of hand.. His thoughts match his words and actions better than most characters. However his powers of perception and intellect are not among the highest. The worst one could call Barry is an honest fool. Jon believes Bran is dead, that does not make him unreliable.

I actually agree with your conclusion. Citing Barry as an authority on judgments is in the ballpark with citing Jamie as an authority on honor or citing Cersei as an authority on fidelity.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

How long would she have taken to recover from his assault, both physically and psychically? I don't think there was a sufficient time window for that.

True. That's a fair point.

A very interesting thought, especially given the HOTU reference to Dany as "child of three." Could that mean her two acknowledged parents and then a third, unknown father?

I'm actually pretty satisfied with the roast-Chelsted connections mentioned by others in this thread - but I like that reading of the "child of three" reference. In fact, my guess has been that many of the cryptic figures named by the HOU prophecy will apply to characters other than (and perhaps in addition to) Dany herself.

[MtnLion]

How can my spoiler be unsupported by the text when it is just a quote from the text?

Here we have a concrete example where the last two King's guards were ordered by a member of the Small Council to leave the king and go do something else. One of them then swears a vow to accomplish that something else.

This is the exact situation Hightower, Dayne and Whent faced if Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna and if they came to believe that the king was Viserys and that he had no King's guards with him. The only difference is that the threat to Aegon was more immediate than the threat to Viserys.

And the Princess and the Queen tells us what the King's guards would do if this happened: they would stay at the Tower of Joy and guard Lyanna, thus obeying the order and leaving the king in the care of non-kingsguard defenders.

I am not referring to the quote. I am referring to your "he was too addled by milk of the poppy" and where are the words that Ser Fell swore?

It is not the same situation, the king is Aerys, not Rhaegar, neither are present or living. They are Kingsguard, they swore a vow. They weren't given an order to guard Lyanna that would override their obligation to have at least one of them go immediately to Prince Viserys. Different situation, entirely. Aegon II is surrounded by an army that is searching for him. Criston Cole the Hand and Lord Commander is dead. (How many months since the milk of the poppy line? And, it was not addled.) And, Aegon II is present, isn't he?

Your conclusion is nonsense. There are three Kingsguard at the tower, one of them is the Lord Commander. The Lord Commander has considered splitting the forces and sending at least one to Dragonstone. We are Kingsguard, we will not flee to Dragonstone with Viserys, we would stay with (MAD) Aerys then, and we will not flee to Dragonstone with Viserys now. It is very clear that they guard the king at the tower, now.

It is under the spoiler tag in post 97. Sentence 1 says that Lord Larys decreed that certain things should happen. Sentence 2 explains how Larys' order was implemented and starts "Ser Rickard Thorne was ordered...".

The order to Thorne shows us how Lord Larys' decree was implemented. Unless you think Larys was giving orders to the king, then there is no other rational interpretation of those two sentences.

Larys, not the king, gave the order to the King's guards, and they obeyed.

As I said, you are misrepresenting and adding confusion as an element in your argument. The situation is not identical, the Kingsguard are with the king, the Lord Commander is dead, Larys may be taking action on behalf of the king, in the king's presence. the lines are very spare, and like I said, it does not say who commanded or who the oath was given to, directly. Then you need to explain how anyone can decree anything in the presence of the king, if it is not by the king's order. The historian may have added color to it, and it is all of a couple paragraphs.

Yes, and we know her name thanks to Ned Dayne -- it was Wylla who nursed Jon (either as his mother or his wet nurse). If she is the same "wet nurse" Cat saw in Winterfell then Jon's nursing would have been as consistent as Robb's.

But even if this is true, the relative size of two young children from different mother's tells you very little about who is older, if we are just talking about two or three months.

Many times, those who are mothers have mentioned that it is not size that matters, but development which is rapid at an early age. It is quite clear differences in age of a week or more in children that are under six months of age.

[Dagda]

classical unreliable narrator... no one knows what it might have been. ( THE GHOST OF HIGH HEART/ WOODS WITCH OF JENNY OF OLDSTONES WOULD KNOW BECAUSE SHE MADE THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED PROPHECY)

but i am glad you are so easily fooled which makes the books less predictable for you, damn i wish i wasn't so smart...

Oye, lord.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

[...]

" As you wish, said Whitbeard. As a young boy, the prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems i must be a warrior.'" SOS Dany 8 (emphasis yours)

[...]

So now we know you have the books, what does all this mean?

FYI-- when providing quotes, please provide the entire passage or indicate missing words with [...] This will prevent confusion and accusations of twisting the text to suit your own purposes. Also, when adding bold or italics for your own emphasis it is customary to note "emphasis mine" to distinguish from the intent of the author. GRRM makes frequent use of bold and italics himself for purposes that may differ from yours.

I fixed that one up there for you, my corrections in red.

[Fred of Ashai]

I am not referring to the quote. I am referring to your "he was too addled by milk of the poppy" and where are the words that Ser Fell swore?

It is not the same situation, the king is Aerys, not Rhaegar, neither are present or living. They are Kingsguard, they swore a vow. They weren't given an order to guard Lyanna that would override their obligation to have at least one of them go immediately to Prince Viserys. Different situation, entirely. Aegon II is surrounded by an army that is searching for him. Criston Cole the Hand and Lord Commander is dead. (How many months since the milk of the poppy line? And, it was not addled.) And, Aegon II is present, isn't he?

Cole was not dead. He was marching on Harrenhal with Aemond and an army. The sequence is:

1. Rhaenyra enters King's Landing.

2. Larys smuggles Aegon out, decrees that the king should go one way with a "bastard knight" whil the two King's guards go elsewhere with the Kimg's son and daughter. The only explanation for the fact that Larys is giving orders is that Aegon (who has been badly wounded and is addicted to milk of the poppy) is unable to issue orders.

3. Meanwhile, Cole and Armond march for more than two weeks toward Harrenhal, then separate, then, later, Cole dies in battle. So Cole is alive when this happens, but he is not available to make decisions about what to do with Aegon.

Your conclusion is nonsense. There are three Kingsguard at the tower, one of them is the Lord Commander. The Lord Commander has considered splitting the forces and sending at least one to Dragonstone. We are Kingsguard, we will not flee to Dragonstone with Viserys, we would stay with (MAD) Aerys then, and we will not flee to Dragonstone with Viserys now. It is very clear that they guard the king at the tower, now.

No, they are fulfilling a vow, which may be the vow to obey orders or it may be a vow such as the one Fell swore after Larys ordered him and the only other King's guard who was present to leave the king and the two King's guards obeyed.

They tell Ned they aren't going to flee the tower because of a vow. We don't know which vow that is.

As I said, you are misrepresenting and adding confusion as an element in your argument. The situation is not identical, the Kingsguard are with the king, the Lord Commander is dead, Larys may be taking action on behalf of the king, in the king's presence. the lines are very spare, and like I said, it does not say who commanded or who the oath was given to, directly. Then you need to explain how anyone can decree anything in the presence of the king, if it is not by the king's order. The historian may have added color to it, and it is all of a couple paragraphs.

I think the only possible explanation for all of this is that Larys took charge because the king wasn't in a position to do so, and the King's guards obeyed Larys' order because it was consistent with their King's guard vow even though it left the king without any King's guards knights accompanying him.

Many times, those who are mothers have mentioned that it is not size that matters, but development which is rapid at an early age. It is quite clear differences in age of a week or more in children that are under six months of age.

I don't think this matters very much (does anything turn on whether Jon is older or younger than Robb?), but there are children who start talking at 15 months and others who don't start until 18 months or later.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

LMFAO wow, ya, actually that too, how the hell did you know?!? Women's intuition is so dead on accurate sometimes that it's scary! Oh and here's the best part she loves the GOT show but has never read the books so she has no idea about R+L=J. Haha who would've thought me of all ppl would have fallen for a summer child! :lol:

And hey! Looks who's back! :cheers:

Glad to hear you had such a happy reason to be absent. Being a summer child is fine, as long as she's also sweet :D

[MtnLion]

Fred, As I reread the timeline in the books we have:

Aegon (and his dragon Sunfyre) is injured near (I believe it was) Storm's End

Aegon taken to the Red Keep and given milk of the poppy

Aegon slept for nine hours of every ten

Sunfyre disappeared before they could kill him

Aegon's mother took regency and ordered Criston Cole (Hand and Lord Commander) to Harrenhal

(I don't know how GRRM would justify the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard holding office as Hand)

The blacks ally with the northmen

They meet with Criston Cole and he dies in battle

The blacks march on King's Landing and take it

Now we have Larys, two Kingsguard, the two children, and possibly a knight taking the king out through the tunnels

To escape detection the children are separated with a Kingsguard protecting each. The boy is easy to justify a Kingsguard, but Ser Fell swears an oath to protect the girl, and is the last Kingsguard available to the king. Obviously for this to happen it must be sensible to the Kingsguard, and in their estimation increase the chances of him making it to safety. Now, you need to explain how if Larys decreed something it wasn't in the king's name. Your suggestion that the Kingsguard were not taking the king's orders and vowing to the king, even by proxy, doesn't hold water.

Now, let's examine the Tower of Joy. Are you agreeing that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar?

[stateofdissipation]

My head is beginning to hurt.

I have been puzzling and puzzling till my puzzler is sore.... sadly I have not thought of something I have not thought of before.

I was looking in to Ageon being smuggled out of KL by Rhaegar in response to Aerys keeping him as a hostage. I could not come up with a time where that might have happened better than between the battle of the bells and the sack of KL. All that is certain about that is that it happend in less than a year.

I was also looking in to Robb's birth and Jon's birth.

I know that the rebellion took a year to reach KL and that Ned was not there at the start.

After KL Ned went to Storm's End and then to the ToJ

I am placing Jon's time of birth at very close to Ned's arrival at the ToJ based on him finding her in her bed of blood. (I did not say I Know because that is not concrete or specific. However it should not be ignored.)

Robb was born roughly 9 moons after the battle on the trident.

From ToJ ned went to starfell and then on to Winterfell.

From all of that all I can figure that Robb and Jon were born within 3 months of each other but it could go either way.

does anybody have any information that can narrow it down any further?

[Alia of the knife]

LMFAO wow, ya, actually that too, how the hell did you know?!? Women's intuition is so dead on accurate sometimes that it's scary! Oh and here's the best part she loves the GOT show but has never read the books so she has no idea about R+L=J. Haha who would've thought me of all ppl would have fallen for a summer child! :lol:

Congrats! That is awesome! :love:

I can't call it intuition, :idea: but experience.

Back in the height of my clubbing days when every man looked like Kurt Cobain, (just dated myself but oh well), we just knew when a part of our group stopped showing up that it was a "great matter of the heart." :leer:

[Alia of the knife]

http://health.bwmc.umms.org/graphics/images/en/19325.jpg :stillsick:

(Disclaimer: Not my hands, but you get the point).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

To build a bridge...

Back in the height of my clubbing days when every man looked like Kurt Cobain, (just dated myself but oh well), we just knew when a part of our group stopped showing up that it was a "great matter of the heart." :leer:

Oh sweet reminescence, back in the days...

back in the days, when both Rhaegar and Lyanna stopped showing up, and after Romeo's tragic death, no, I tell a lie, it was Rhaegar, and then Juliet's, no, it was Lyanna's imminent death, back then at the Tower of Joy...

Fred ... Now, let's examine the Tower of Joy. Are you agreeing that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar?

I am not Fred, and frankly, I don't know. But it makes nineteen parts out of twenty (roll those icosahedron dice) more sense to me that they were married than they weren't.

[Alia of the knife]

To build a bridge...

Oh sweet reminescence, back in the days...

back in the days, when both Rhaegar and Lyanna stopped showing up, and after Romeo's tragic death, no, I tell a lie, it was Rhaegar, and then Juliet's, no, it was Lyanna's imminent death, back then at the Tower of Joy..

Well, no one died in my case, lol, but there were morinings when I wished I was. :stillsick:

As for channeling Shakespeare, nothing wrong with that, because we are still reading it.

[Alia of the knife]

On a serious note, I do have a question.

I have always wondered about Stark/North involvement in these wars, and up until now, they seemed to stay out of it. But then I saw someone mention in a post that the Blacks allied with the Northman, and it seems the Lannisters allied with the Greens.

(I have yet to read tPatQ)

Is that correct?

If so did the Targaryen forces make their way to the North, and if so, could they have left something behind? (an egg, or a love- we know how wars can be).

I've just wondered if R+L could be the first encounter?

It also sets up future enmity between the Lannisters and the Starks, but it does appear to show the Starks as Targaryen loyalists.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Robb was born roughly 9 moons after the battle on the trident.

Not the Trident, the "Battle of The Bells".

Add one week to the nine months for Eddard to get from Stoney Sept to Riverrun in order to marry Catelyn first.

ETA: or two.

From ToJ ned went to starfell and then on to Winterfell.

There may have been a stop somewhere in-between to meet Robert for reconciliation (mentioned, but not where - it should have been King's Landing as it is Robert's seat and on the direct route)

From all of that all I can figure that Robb and Jon were born within 3 months of each other but it could go either way.

With all the information available I'd even narrow it down to one or two weeks.

ETA: well, or three.

does anybody have any information that can narrow it down any further?

There are a few timelines and discussions around. I'd suggest that after having read the books you should read the FAQ and compare with the mentions in the books.

[MtnLion]

They tell Ned they aren't going to flee the tower because of a vow. We don't know which vow that is.

Actually we do, they are "Kingsguard".

Now, please answer: Is Lyanna royal family?

[MtnLion]

I don't think this matters very much (does anything turn on whether Jon is older or younger than Robb?), but there are children who start talking at 15 months and others who don't start until 18 months or later.

I said, "at less than six months age," how come your argument is based on extending that to over a year? We know that Robb and Jon are both newborn. Neither of them can be more than a month or two old at that point in time.

[Dagda]

On a serious note, I do have a question.

I have always wondered about Stark/North involvement in these wars, and up until now, they seemed to stay out of it. But then I saw someone mention in a post that the Blacks allied with the Northman, and it seems the Lannisters allied with the Greens.

(I have yet to read tPatQ)

Is that correct?

If so did the Targaryen forces make their way to the North, and if so, could they have left something behind? (an egg, or a love- we know how wars can be).

I've just wondered if R+L could be the first encounter?

It also sets up future enmity between the Lannisters and the Starks, but it does appear to show the Starks as Targaryen loyalists.

A line that has always bothered me ALOT :"

"Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I love you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace."

What exactly is any claim Ned had to the throne?

[MtnLion]

On a serious note, I do have a question.

I have always wondered about Stark/North involvement in these wars, and up until now, they seemed to stay out of it. But then I saw someone mention in a post that the Blacks allied with the Northman, and it seems the Lannisters allied with the Greens.

(I have yet to read tPatQ)

Is that correct?

If so did the Targaryen forces make their way to the North, and if so, could they have left something behind? (an egg, or a love- we know how wars can be).

I've just wondered if R+L could be the first encounter?

It also sets up future enmity between the Lannisters and the Starks, but it does appear to show the Starks as Targaryen loyalists.

Yeah, off hand the Lannisters joined up with the greens. However, in the Robellion the Lannisters were more or less on the side of the north. The friction was mostly between Tywin(childslayer)/Jaime(kingslayer) and Ned, dishonor versus honor. Then Cersei went and proved to Ned how dishonor breeds dishonor.

The story kind of glossed over many interesting things, like the Princesses visit to Winterfell. The battle was described, but very briefly. There is more attention to the detail of the clashes between the dragons and (sometimes prospective) dragonriders.