MtnLion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 A line that has always bothered me ALOT :""Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I love you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon”“You had the better claim, Your Grace."What exactly is any claim Ned had to the throne? Or Jon Arryn. Ned does not say that either had a claim, other than Robert did have a claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It should not come too much as a surprise that, like in our world, all those nobles are even a tad closer related to each other than the rest of the world is... or not? Now the proof is a bit harder to find...A line that has always bothered me ALOT :""Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I love you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon”“You had the better claim, Your Grace."What exactly is any claim Ned had to the throne? I think a similar dialogue triggers Cersei's "you win or you die" quote.* There is a thread called Egg hatched three heads: Stark, Lannister, Baratheon that juggles along the notion of everyone on stage being a kissing cousin. * I am mistaken, that may have been in the show, it is not in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 A line that has always bothered me ALOT :""Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I love you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon”“You had the better claim, Your Grace."What exactly is any claim Ned had to the throne? Or Jon Arryn. Ned does not say that either had a claim, other than Robert did have a claim. The claim of conquest comes to mind. It was Jon Arryn who started the Rebellion. It was Ned who took the capitol. Had Ned sat down on the throne after Jaime got up from it, he was within rights to claim the throne for himself - the right of Conquest, the same as Aegon the Conquerer used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Yeah, off hand the Lannisters joined up with the greens. However, in the Robellion the Lannisters were more or less on the side of the north. The friction was mostly between Tywin(childslayer)/Jaime(kingslayer) and Ned, dishonor versus honor. Then Cersei went and proved to Ned how dishonor breeds dishonor. The story kind of glossed over many interesting things, like the Princesses visit to Winterfell. The battle was described, but very briefly. There is more attention to the detail of the clashes between the dragons and (sometimes prospective) dragonriders.Thanks! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It should not come too much as a surprise that, like in our world, all those nobles are even a tad closer related to each other than the rest of the world is... or not? Now the proof is a bit harder to find... Our favorite author chortles with glee as he picques our interest with missing details. We have brief scenes and stories that touch slightly at possible interminglings, but they are never documented. Much of the family trees have not been completed, and I suspect that this is a deliberate ploy because something very spectacular is going to be revealed. Or not, as the case may be. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Our favorite author chortles with glee as he picques our interest with missing details. We have brief scenes and stories that touch slightly at possible interminglings, but they are never documented. Much of the family trees have not been completed, and I suspect that this is a deliberate ploy because something very spectacular is going to be revealed. Or not, as the case may be. ;) "har, har," I believe is the correct quote :) Let's ask Old Nan, Lord Tarth and Brynden Rivers about that... Oh, they don't answer? Grrm, grrm, ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The claim of conquest comes to mind. It was Jon Arryn who started the Rebellion. It was Ned who took the capitol. Had Ned sat down on the throne after Jaime got up from it, he was within rights to claim the throne for himself - the right of Conquest, the same as Aegon the Conquerer used. Pycella also mentions that he would have wanted Tywin to be the new king, with no other claim but the right of conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 With all the information available I'd even narrow it down to one or two weeks. ETA: well, or three. I think we can narrow it to within a couple of weeks. Both boys are 14 when Robert arrives at WF. Jon's fifteenth nameday occurs after he has been at the Wall less than a month. The first time we hear that Robb is fifteen is the day of the encounter with the Wildlings, by which time Tyrion has returned to WF and traveled on to be captured by Cat. (The day before that happens, Robb gets word of Ned's ambush and Jory's death.) Robb turns 16 around the Battle of the Crag, which occurs just before Blackwater. We can safely place BoBW a little more than eight months after Ned's death. Based on Ned and Jon receiving news that Bran has woken up, we can further estimate that Ned arrived in KL about a fortnight after Jon's 15th nameday. It's then possible to document at least 3 months, or even close to four, that Ned spent in KL prior to his death. Toting it all up within the margin of error places Robb's fifteenth nameday within a fortnight of Jon's-- exactly which side is impossible to define. Though once again, due to Cat's conviction that Jon is younger than Robb, I do favor that interpretation and it looks like the timeline allows for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Or Jon Arryn. Ned does not say that either had a claim, other than Robert did have a claim.The word better argues more nuance to the statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It should not come too much as a surprise that, like in our world, all those nobles are even a tad closer related to each other than the rest of the world is... or not? Now the proof is a bit harder to find... I think a similar dialogue triggers Cersei's "you win or you die" quote.* There is a thread calledEgg hatched three heads: Stark, Lannister, Baratheon that juggles along the notion of everyone on stage being a kissing cousin. * I am mistaken, that may have been in the show, it is not in the book.Ok, read it thanks. Way to tinfoilly for me .... Everything hangs on the interpretation of dragonfly. Can't say I'm willing to jump that particular gorge. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The claim of conquest comes to mind. It was Jon Arryn who started the Rebellion. It was Ned who took the capitol. Had Ned sat down on the throne after Jaime got up from it, he was within rights to claim the throne for himself - the right of Conquest, the same as Aegon the Conquerer used.That would fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The word better argues more nuance to the statement. Some is better than none . . . ETA: Or as I have seen it before, "A positive anything is better than a negative nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Pycella also mentions that he would have wanted Tywin to be the new king, with no other claim but the right of conquest. Exactly. There's also the Crakehall Lord from the westerlands who asks Jaime (upon entering the Throne Room where Jaime is busy pulling his sword out of Aerys' corpse) who asks if he should proclaim a new king, which Jaime reads as "Who should I proclaim? Lord Tywin, Robert Baratheon, Prince Aegon, or Prince Viserys?". Only one of those has the direct claim through blood (Aegon, as Rhaegar's son). Viserys would be to keep it in the bloodlines of Aerys, but only an option because he's the elder of the two children. The other two, Tywin and Robert, are claims by conquest (Robert since he is the head of the rebellion, with his remote Targaryen ancestor) and Tywin for taking the city. By all laws, Robert's right to the throne seized to exist the moment he killed Rhaegar and became a kinslayer. But that is something they like to ignore :) So Robert was a claim of conquest as well, but his was the strongest legally due to his blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'll be waiting for your answer :) ok let me start off with my first quote. 1.i use that one to tie down that Egg, Duncan the Small ( 1st born son who married for love?), Duncan the Tall and Jenny were all aware of the talents/skills/abilities of the Woods Witch that spoke to Jaehaerys the 2nd ( why use this name for his 2nd son? another odd tangent i can't go down but was The Old King really that great a guy?) and made him marry his Targ Son to his Targ daughter. (exact opposite of what egg allowed his 2 sons to do ) we are told she gave it to jaehaerys but as Egg was still King, so she was probably closer to him than his second son. Hence her coming to court with Jenny when she married. The ghost's relationship to Ducnan the Small/Jenny and Egg seems to coincide with the gathering of eggs by Duncan,BR, Egg at end of mystery knight... this also means that she had a significant role in the future love life of Aerys that would see him rape his wife only when they attempted to procreate? (basically she enabled this to happen) anyways the most important thing i gather from the first quote as that in addition to being close/on a first name basis to the victims of summerhall, she also had direct role in the destiny of Aerys. Did he know about the Woods Witch? if he did how close where they? which leads me to believe that she would have no problem meeting up with Rhaegar at Summerhall do to her past connection to Targs... also the fact that dany asks, What became of her? Summerhall... lets us know that this is the last place she was seen. (according to Barristen, the Noble Fool) 2. yes it does connect to ghost of high heart. if the scroll he found was a description of the PTWP as written down by the Woods Witch in regards to coming from the line of Aerys & Rhaella. his dad more than likey forgot about it by this time with nobody left alive to remind him... that is a connection 3. idk what that quote means. could be like you say, that he was actually born at summerhall when it was in flames, but that begs the question how did rhaella and baby R get out and why wouldn't she have told him this epic birth story countless number of times. A dragonprince born in the flames of grief... 4. harp quote connects to the later quote about summerhall and songs ( ghost of high heart/woods witch) 5. anything that they were cooking up Rhaegar and Ghost of High Heart ( by the tourney of false spring he as at the height of his awareness/knowledge about the future. He knows what must take place in order for the next generation to be prepared.) 6. yep i am always looking for deeper meaning. Using degrees of separation we can connect Aerys to Jaehaerys to Woods Witch. so any behavior attributed to him should always been seen through rose colored glasses. also if the purpose of marrying Aerys to Rhaella was to get Rhaegar then yes, she can be connected to a majority of Aerys actions. ( not directly, not even her influencing him, just by setting things into place with her prophecy and past connection to Targs) not sure what role Tywin played in the development of Aerys but we know its possible Aerys only child not born of incest could be Tyrion... 7. description of GoHH that lead me to believe she was WW 8. same 9. the original author might have been Duncan the Small or Rhaegar. Not sure but i think the author of Jenny's Song was previously connected to Woods Witch. i like to think this was a requirement for her visions, so rhaegar would have been familiar with this song... Also this in my mind suggests where his affinity for music stems from...also Jenny's song in more than likely just as tragic as the Bastard o' the Winter Rose... 10. brief descriptions of GoHH that lead me to believe she was same as The Woods Witch who Jenny clamied was a COTF almost 70-80 previous. so she was already old then and well her age has to be pushing 150 + and seems to been no signs of slowing down... old nan, aemon targaryen, brynden rivers are all younger than her. so take that and make something out of it... 11. once again a description of GoHH can lead to several assumptions. i always keyed in on the fact she constantly wants a song played in payment for her prophetic dreams/predictions... seems like a likely scenario took place between her and Rhaegar, in a similar fashion to her interactions with Tom o Sevens 12. THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE QUOTES FROM THE BOOK. also i think deserves the least amount of connection to this theory of mine 13. only his harp for company? lol not what i believe. he always came back with a song that he did not previously have in his catalog of tunes... strange. he would sing about the death of kings and sing of himself and those he loved.\so he sings about past kings, present kings, and future kings. hmm everything suggests that the Ghost had something to do with it... in my opinion So now we know you have the books, what does all this mean? FYI-- when providing quotes, please provide the entire passage or indicate missing words with [...] This will prevent confusion and accusations of twisting the text to suit your own purposes. Also, when adding bold or italics for your own emphasis it is customary to note "emphasis mine" to distinguish from the intent of the author. GRRM makes frequent use of bold and italics himself for purposes that may differ from yours. I fixed that one up there for you, my corrections in red. thank you. I could not for the life of me find the part of the text editor that changed the color of the font until, you kindly pointed it out to me. My representation of the quotes as I type them out can be difficult to read at times, which often leads to people saying i am " misrepresenting the text " so once again thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 snip A huge lot of claiming possible connections and interpretations as the one answer, and still nothing to substantiate the claims, sorry. It could have been that way, but it didn't necessarily have to, and that is not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 A huge lot of claiming possible connections and interpretations as the one answer, and still nothing to substantiate the claims, sorry. It could have been that way, but it didn't necessarily have to, and that is not good enough. by all means provide a more likely scenario " on the ways it could have been" and i will listen. I say Rhaegar got singing lessons from GoHH/WW and she taught him the Song o' the Winter Rose (amongst other things ) in return for playing her Jenny's Song at the ruins of Summerhall. be sure to provide quotes and your descriptions of them. i have read all asoiaf novels cover to cover multiple times and these are the types of clues that GRRM leaves us. if they story was simple to figure out and the connections were obvious then there would be no point in speculation or even really having a interest in the books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 by all means provide a more likely scenario " on the ways it could have been" and i will listen. I say Rhaegar got singing lessons from GoHH/WW and she taught him the Song o' the Winter Rose (amongst other things ) in return for playing her Jenny's Song at the ruins of Summerhall. be sure to provide quotes and your descriptions of them. i have read all asoiaf novels cover to cover multiple times and these are the types of clues that GRRM leaves us. if they story was simple to figure out and the connections were obvious then there would be no point in speculation or even really having a interest in the books... I already have, feel free to find my initial response. Since you claim an intimate knowledge of the books, you will certainly know that e.g. the visions of Daenys the Dreamer were indeed written down. And BTW, I never claimed "more likely", just equally possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 by all means provide a more likely scenario " on the ways it could have been" and i will listen. I say Rhaegar got singing lessons from GoHH/WW and she taught him the Song o' the Winter Rose (amongst other things ) in return for playing her Jenny's Song at the ruins of Summerhall. be sure to provide quotes and your descriptions of them. i have read all asoiaf novels cover to cover multiple times and these are the types of clues that GRRM leaves us. if they story was simple to figure out and the connections were obvious then there would be no point in speculation or even really having a interest in the books... But, pray tell, what does Rhaegar and the Woods Witch have to do with R+L=J? We think that the Ghost of High Heart is the Woods Witch, because of some clues. We know that the Ghost of High Heart is very accurate. We also know that Rhaegar was very inaccurate (thinking himself the Prince that was Promised, then thinking that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 actually i havent looked her up in awhile... she was the daughter of Aenar who left valaryia for dragonstone before the doom... iffc. please post relevant quotes in regards to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 But, pray tell, what does Rhaegar and the Woods Witch have to do with R+L=J? We think that the Ghost of High Heart is the Woods Witch, because of some clues. We know that the Ghost of High Heart is very accurate. We also know that Rhaegar was very inaccurate (thinking himself the Prince that was Promised, then thinking that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised). the Song o' the Winter rose. is the simplest explanation imo. the only people we can be 100 percent sure have heard it before are the Mance, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Jon Snow and possibly ( R+L) as this is a special song not sung south of the wall how did Rhaegar come by it? ( i am working under assumption this was the song that made the wolf maid sniffle) the only logical answer is GoHH or WW imo but the possibility that Mance taught him the tune cannot be dismissed either... only my opinion but the Bastard of Winterfell as described in the story by Y, name was Jon Snow. the woods witch would have told him that his son would need this name to become the man of destiny? so yea he sung it at the spring tourney, L was like that shit makes sense i guess lets name him Jon and let ned raise him as a bastard... all based upon his gathering of prophetic knowledge from books, aemon and the ghost as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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