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Kat

R + L = J v 74

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I said, "at less than six months age," how come your argument is based on extending that to over a year? We know that Robb and Jon are both newborn. Neither of them can be more than a month or two old at that point in time.

Does this matter?

To answer your question, some infants crawl at 5 months, some at 9 or 10 months.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x1048869/when-will-my-baby-crawl

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A huge lot of claiming possible connections and interpretations as the one answer, and still nothing to substantiate the claims, sorry. It could have been that way, but it didn't necessarily have to, and that is not good enough.

This is my criticism of the theory that the only reason the King's guards were at the Tower of Joy was to guard a king.

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Well it seems the thread is in a weird place. Stopped in because I ran across something and thought of you guys. Well ran across a couple of things, I thought I read about this before but can't find anything, thought maybe someone here would remember. Was not going to post it cause it's odd and yet would seem to fit the current mood. It's odd in a good way, just an idea and a couple of little quotes.

Back when Joff was alive one of his KG was not a knight and known as his dog. Sandor of course. So with the Jon is a secret Targ king thing I just kind of had this thought. Joff has his dog and Jon has his wolf. So I wanted to see if I could make a connection. Funny enough I did, though it was buy accident and I think probably mentioned before though I don't remember. I was trying to explain shadows to someone who thought, shadows meant someone was a Targ, though I tried to explain it's really about the context it is used in. Ghost of course is white that's the obvious. But the obscure, he is called by Jon his white Shadow.

Dance chapter 2.

"Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side."

Dance chapter 7.

"Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side."

Ser Ghost of Winterfell LC of the Kings guard. You know there are parallels and there are parallels but it's identical phrasing. Of course Jon left him behind, when he was advised to keep him around for protection. I know it's no blue rose, but I mean come on.

I have something else but I am apprehensive to post it as it may upset someone, it's just a few quotes most likely regarding Jon though it has nothing to do with his death. Just not a lot of people are fans of the idea. But it's similar to the above. Very similar, different subject but it has near identical phrasing.

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Another oddity between Dany and Jon is that Dany of course had Jorah Mormont as he sworn sword and Jon had Mormonts sword. It's obvious but it's never really talked about, that I know of.

You know Dany of course is a rightful Queen of house Targaryen, I can't really blame her for not knowing about Jon as some do for some odd reason. Just like I don't blame Jon for not knowing his parentage. If Martin is using these kinds of blatant parallels and she is a queen then that makes Jon? Dany of course has the obvious symbolism, but Jon has the same symbolism it's just obscure, and he is a boy of course.

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Another oddity between Dany and Jon is that Dany of course had Jorah Mormont as he sworn sword and Jon had Mormonts sword. It's obvious but it's never really talked about, that I know of.

This is grand. This is an observation I have never read before and never even thought of before.

Thank you.

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Dance chapter 2.

"Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side."

Dance chapter 7.

"Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side."

Ser Ghost of Winterfell LC of the Kings guard.

No blue roses? This time, we let that one pass B)

Another oddity between Dany and Jon is that Dany of course had Jorah Mormont as he sworn sword and Jon had Mormonts sword. It's obvious but it's never really talked about, that I know of.

What a great start into the day!

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Which one? Just wondering.

The one given above, that Rhaegar read about the prophecy in a book. He apparently radically changed his lifestyle at a young age after reading it, declaring he "must be a warrior".

It's not ironclad either, but at least there's a hint there that we lack for the alternative.

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This is my criticism of the theory that the only reason the King's guards were at the Tower of Joy was to guard a king.

It's certainly not proven.

But the careful nuances in the words of the KG strongly suggest that they are there to guard a king. It is the most logical conclusion to be drawn from what they say. I guess we need to wait to find out if that's true.

Personally, I would be stunned if it wasn't. And pretty disappointed/swindled.

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In the crypts of Winterfell Ned remembers Lyanna's death...but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes... The next time the word fear comes into play in the chapter it is a mother's fear to lose a son. The text continues through dialogue between Robert and Ned. There is an aside (not attributed to Ned's present thinking) regarding Robert's battle with Rhaegar, Then the dialogue continues leaving Ned's last thoughts about Lyanna.

Robert says: 'Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?` The highlighted words are perhaps the slightest word to cause an old wound to bleed.

Ned would sooner entrust a child to pit viper than to Lord Tywin but he left his doubts unspoken (on page 107, Ned says you (Robert) are no Tywin Lannister to slaughter innocents with no caution and no mention of an old wound). Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word.

"the wife has lost the husband" he said carefully, "perhaps the mother feared to lose the son..." Robert responds and the next thing Ned says "I can take him as a ward, if you wish... she (Lysa his mother) would be welcome here as well:" The highlighted words would apply to Lyanna as much as they would to Lysa if R+L=J and R had married L.

Until the latest rereading I had always assumed the old wound was Tywin. However, in seems to be equally possible to apply to Lyanna.

Really nice catch.

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ok let me start off with my first quote.

1.i use that one to tie down that Egg, Duncan the Small ( 1st born son who married for love?), Duncan the Tall and Jenny were all aware of the talents/skills/abilities of the Woods Witch that spoke to Jaehaerys the 2nd ( why use this name for his 2nd son? another odd tangent i can't go down but was The Old King really that great a guy?) and made him marry his Targ Son to his Targ daughter. (exact opposite of what egg allowed his 2 sons to do )

we are told she gave it to jaehaerys but as Egg was still King, so she was probably closer to him than his second son. Hence her coming to court with Jenny when she married.

The ghost's relationship to Ducnan the Small/Jenny and Egg seems to coincide with the gathering of eggs by Duncan,BR, Egg at end of mystery knight...

this also means that she had a significant role in the future love life of Aerys that would see him rape his wife only when they attempted to procreate? (basically she enabled this to happen)

anyways the most important thing i gather from the first quote as that in addition to being close/on a first name basis to the victims of summerhall, she also had direct role in the destiny of Aerys.

Did he know about the Woods Witch? if he did how close where they?

which leads me to believe that she would have no problem meeting up with Rhaegar at Summerhall do to her past connection to Targs...

also the fact that dany asks, What became of her? Summerhall... lets us know that this is the last place she was seen. (according to Barristen, the Noble Fool)

2. yes it does connect to ghost of high heart.

if the scroll he found was a description of the PTWP as written down by the Woods Witch in regards to coming from the line of Aerys & Rhaella. his dad more than likey forgot about it by this time with nobody left alive to remind him... that is a connection

3. idk what that quote means. could be like you say, that he was actually born at summerhall when it was in flames, but that begs the question how did rhaella and baby R get out and why wouldn't she have told him this epic birth story countless number of times. A dragonprince born in the flames of grief...

4. harp quote connects to the later quote about summerhall and songs ( ghost of high heart/woods witch)

5. anything that they were cooking up Rhaegar and Ghost of High Heart ( by the tourney of false spring he as at the height of his awareness/knowledge about the future. He knows what must take place in order for the next generation to be prepared.)

6. yep i am always looking for deeper meaning. Using degrees of separation we can connect Aerys to Jaehaerys to Woods Witch. so any behavior attributed to him should always been seen through rose colored glasses. also if the purpose of marrying Aerys to Rhaella was to get Rhaegar then yes, she can be connected to a majority of Aerys actions. ( not directly, not even her influencing him, just by setting things into place with her prophecy and past connection to Targs)

not sure what role Tywin played in the development of Aerys but we know its possible Aerys only child not born of incest could be Tyrion...

7. description of GoHH that lead me to believe she was WW

8. same

9. the original author might have been Duncan the Small or Rhaegar. Not sure but i think the author of Jenny's Song was previously connected to Woods Witch. i like to think this was a requirement for her visions, so rhaegar would have been familiar with this song... Also this in my mind suggests where his affinity for music stems from...also Jenny's song in more than likely just as tragic as the Bastard o' the Winter Rose...

10. brief descriptions of GoHH that lead me to believe she was same as The Woods Witch who Jenny clamied was a COTF almost 70-80 previous. so she was already old then and well her age has to be pushing 150 + and seems to been no signs of slowing down... old nan, aemon targaryen, brynden rivers are all younger than her. so take that and make something out of it...

11. once again a description of GoHH can lead to several assumptions. i always keyed in on the fact she constantly wants a song played in payment for her prophetic dreams/predictions... seems like a likely scenario took place between her and Rhaegar, in a similar fashion to her interactions with Tom o Sevens

12. THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE QUOTES FROM THE BOOK. also i think deserves the least amount of connection to this theory of mine

13. only his harp for company? lol not what i believe. he always came back with a song that he did not previously have in his catalog of tunes... strange.

he would sing about the death of kings and sing of himself and those he loved.\so he sings about past kings, present kings, and future kings. hmm everything suggests that the Ghost had something to do with it... in my opinion

thank you. I could not for the life of me find the part of the text editor that changed the color of the font until, you kindly pointed it out to me. My representation of the quotes as I type them out can be difficult to read at times, which often leads to people saying i am " misrepresenting the text " so once again thanks

Thank you for the response. Explanation, instead of only posting quotes, makes for much better discussion.

1.

"Why did the wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandshire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince who was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?"

"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

"What became of her?"

"Summerhall." the word was fraught with doom."

ADWD Dany 23

What this quote shows is that it was the woods witch who told Aegon V that Aerys and Rhaella had to marry and have children, since from their union, the Prince that was Promised would be born. This means that at least Aegon V knew about what the little woman had to say. Jaehaerys (indeed Egg's second born son, with a relatively normal name, since it's a Valyrian name, and Jaehaerys I gave the realm more than 50 years of peace) would have known as well, most likely, since it concerned his own children.

Since the woman was a friend of Jenny's, and since Dundan the Small (yes, he was Egg's firstborn son), was at Summerhal (and Jenny as well, IIRC), we can assume that Jenny and Duncan knew, along with Egg and Duncan the Tall, what the plan was to hatch the eggs.

What are we told she gave to Jaehaerys? Nothing. The woods witch isn't mentioned together with Jaehaerys at all.

Duncan the Tall and Egg had nothing to do with Bloodraven taking the dragons egg. They were not involved in it. So the Mystery Knight does not show those two gathering dragons eggs.

There is no evidence that the woods witch had met Aerys. We don't even know where Aerys lived during the reigns of Aegon V and Jaehaerys II (at Dragonstone, which was his fathers seat and later his own? King's Landing? Somewhere else?). So there is nothing to lead the thought of Rhaegar meeting up with her at Summerhal.

Barristans answer to Dany about "what happened to her?" leads me to suspect that the woods witch made it out of Summerhal (if she is indeed the Ghost of High Heart, which I think she is), but that this is unknown to the people. I suspect that Barristan, and the rest of the court, think she died as well. Otherwise, Summerhal would not have been what happened to her. If they knew she survived, he would have told her where she went, or, if he didn't know that, simply that she left the court.

2.

"As you wish", said Whitbeard. "As a young boy, the prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems i must be a warrior.'"

aSOS Dany 8

If the scroll Rhaegar found was written down by the woods witch. That is one big if.

The prophecy is at least a thousand years old, if not older (Melisandre has even mentioned 5000 years). It seems to me that someone else would write it down, not only the woods witch (if she wrote down anything at all).

We don't know if someone explained to Aerys why he had to marry Rhaella. Their grandfather was king, and he commanded it of them, so they had no choice but to marry. No explanation needed.

All this quotes shows is that Rhaegar read something that made him believe he would have to be a warrior. That suggests that he found the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, yes. But to say that it had to have been the woods witch who had written it down, has no evidence at all.

3.

"I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."

"You make him sound sour," dany protested.

"Not sour, no but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

aSOS Dany 42

So the app has confirmed that Rhaegar was most likely born in Summerhal. Now, I don't know how big Summerhal is, and how much of it was destroyed. But Rhaella could have been at the other end of Summerhal (like Bran being safe from the fire at Winterfell's library, because that was happening at the complete other side of the castle). That would make her position reasonably safe, safe enough to get away, I think.

4. + 9 + 13

"Did you know my brother Rhaegar well?"

" It was said no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar truly," said Whitebeard. "But I did have the pleasure of seeing him tourney though, and often heard him play the harp with its silver strings."

aSOS Dany 8

"All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams? And then she said to Tom Sevenstrings, I will have my song or i will have you gone."

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad..."

aSOS Arya 22

"And yet Sumerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the Knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and star, and whenever he came back he would have a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

aSOS Dany 42

So the first of the three shows that Rhaegar played his harp. This we also know from, for example, Meera's story, and also Cersei, IIRC.

The second of the three shows that the song the woods witch requires as payment is a sad and soft song. We later learn that it's "Jenny's song". So Jenny's song is a sad song.

We don't know who wrote it, and if it was written while Jenny was still alive, of after she had died. IF it was after she had died, it can't have been Duncan the Small, since he died with her.

You state "the Original author might have been", indicating that we don't know who the author was. We also don't know how old the song is, and whether it was made shortly after the Tragedy of Summerhal (ruling out Rhaegar), or long thereafter.

But again, you use a big if to connect things.

The third quotes shows that Rhaegar at times went to the ruins of Summerhal with his harp, and returned after a while with a new song. Elia's line in Dany's vision "will you write a song for him?" suggests that Rhaegar wrote songs himself. Usually, when you write songs, you didn't have them previously :P Otherwise, there would be no trick in writing songs.

Singing about the death of kings makes sense. Aegon V, a king, died in that hall, and so did his firstborn son, who would have been king, had he married another. Thinking about the death of one king could make you think about the death of other kings, and House Targaryen doesn't lack those. Rhaegar is strongly connected to Summerhal, since the Tragedy (a sad event, leading to sad songs) happened on the day that he was born, and most likely, it happened within viewing distance of him while he was being born.

Nothing of this proves that Rhaegar would meet up with the Ghost of High Heart/Woods Witch, and nothing suggests that he needed her to write his songs.

5.

The fifth quote shows us that Rhaegar went to the Harrenhal Tourney in the Year of the False Spring. We didn't necessarily needed this quote for that, since we have Jaime, Meera and Ned telling us about the Tourney and Rhaegar's presence.

By the time of the Tourney, Aegon wasn't born yet. So no reason for Rhaegar to look for anything. There is also no reason to say he knows what will happen in the future. No proof. Anything they were "cooking up"? We don't even have proof they ever met.

If the Ghost of High Heart played a leading role in the Tragedy in Summerhal (and her presence suggests that at least she had some role in the event), the blame could easily be put at her feet. Who would you blame, as new monarch, for the death of your father, brother and sister in law? Your father, a highborn man and king, or the dwarfish woman, small folk? Barristans' quote, as stated above, suggests that he believes that the woods witch died at Summerhal. It would not do for her to be seen alive again, especially not by any of the royal members. That could quickly mean the end of her life.

6.

So you agree that Aerys and the woods witch cannot be connected to each other, except for if you place Jaehaerys (of whom we're not certain he knew everything, but something which is likely) in the middle? That would be like saying that Gendry and Robb Stark were connected to each other... They both know Arya, right? But both of them being connected to Arya doesn't mean they are connected to each other. The same goes for Aerys and the witch.

Though I agree that the witch was responsible for Aegon commanding the marriage, thus influencing a portion of Aerys' life.

10.

brief descriptions of GoHH that lead me to believe she was same as The Woods Witch who Jenny clamied was a COTF almost 70-80 previous. so she was already old then and well her age has to be pushing 150 + and seems to been no signs of slowing down... old nan, aemon targaryen, brynden rivers are all younger than her. so take that and make something out of it...

Okay, so the Tragedy at Summerhal happened 40 years prior to Arya meeting the Ghost of High Heart, in 259 AC. With Aegon V born in 200 AC and Jaehaerys II born in 223 AC, Duncan the Small would have been born somewhere between 218 and 222 AC. Duncan would have married for love somewhere in his late teens, early twenties, which puts his wedding to Jenny about 20 years prior to Summerhal. All together, the first time the woman could have come to court was about 60 years ago.

If she's truly a child of the forest, it's not unlikely for her to be even older than 150 years. If she's simply an old woman, it's not that strange either, though it would be exceptional. Aemon was 102 when he died, and if he had stayed in Castle Black (without it being attacked or something like that), he might have lived for another 20 years easily. So looking old 60 years ago and still looking old today, would indicate an age around the 100, perhaps a bit older.

11.

She also demanded wine, and IIRC also food, in exchange for her payments.

As to the song, it's a memory to her, a memory to her dear friend, and it's all she has left of that time. Old person going sentimental, it's possible.

If she demanded a song from Rhaegar (of whom we cannot prove they have never ever met before), it would be a song he wrote himself, or that was written by someone else (Tom states she always wants to hear the same song, but I feel he would be complaining she would always want to hear her song if it was a song the witch had written and teached to Tom). And yet, you stated above that Rhaegar would have gotten the song from the witch...

12.

If it has nothing to do with your theory, please don't put it in.

So, to conclude, there are a lot of big if's in your theory. And no proof. If A and B happened, than it's possible that C happened. But there is no proof that A or B happened, and if A or B hasn't happened, that means that C can't have happened like that either...

In any case, I can't remember where this all came from, but I truly do fail to see a connection between the Ghost of High Heart and R+L=J... which is what we are discussing here. I felt like I had to answer to this, though, since I asked for your explanations and you were kind enough to provide them. But I do suggest that if this discussion (about Rhaegar and GoHH) is to continue, it should do so in a separate thread.

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No. I think that is unlikely. And I don't think Jon is their son, either.

I left Jon out, for the moment, for a reason. The Kingsguard may not know that Lyanna is pregnant when Rhaegar orders the Lord Commander (and the others) to guard her. So, on what pretext are they fulfilling their vow as Kingsguard if they agree to guard Layanna, if she is not royal family? (If she is not royal family your parallel to The Princess and the Queen situation becomes rubbish, even though it is extremely thin to begin with.)

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Does this matter?

To answer your question, some infants crawl at 5 months, some at 9 or 10 months.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x1048869/when-will-my-baby-crawl

Again, we are talking about newborns. There are many more things to judge than the ability to crawl (at five months or near enough to six that I mentioned). Jon and Robb are both newborns, and Robb cannot be more than three months old, though it is much more likely that Robb is less than two months old when Catelyn arrives at Winterfell.

ETA: Demonstrate that a a mother of a child less than six months old can misjudge the age of another child that is as close as two weeks of age to her child. Even if you can find an occasional exception, that does not account for the judgement of Catelyn, and the fact that she is jealous because she believes that Jon is younger that Robb.

You are in the state of denial. We present logic, you deny it. Verification that it is true that you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink.

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I left Jon out, for the moment, for a reason. The Kingsguard may not know that Lyanna is pregnant when Rhaegar orders the Lord Commander (and the others) to guard her. So, on what pretext are they fulfilling their vow as Kingsguard if they agree to guard Layanna, if she is not royal family? (If she is not royal family your parallel to The Princess and the Queen situation becomes rubbish, even though it is extremely thin to begin with.)

The Kingsguard through out the first 5 books end up in places not guarding royal blood, but under the direction of where the royal blood told them to be.

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Again, we are talking about newborns. There are many more things to judge than the ability to crawl (at five months or near enough to six that I mentioned). Jon and Robb are both newborns, and Robb cannot be more than three months old, though it is much more likely that Robb is less than two months old when Catelyn arrives at Winterfell.

ETA: Demonstrate that a a mother of a child less than six months old can misjudge the age of another child that is as close as two weeks of age to her child. Even if you can find an occasional exception, that does not account for the judgement of Catelyn, and the fact that she is jealous because she believes that Jon is younger that Robb.

Not to mention that Cat is hardly the only woman in Winterfell who had the opportunity to compare the boys, yet no suspicion ever reached her ears.

The Kingsguard through out the first 5 books end up in places not guarding royal blood, but under the direction of where the royal blood told them to be.

And while the king is protected by their remaining brethren.

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The Kingsguard through out the first 5 books end up in places not guarding royal blood, but under the direction of where the royal blood told them to be.

All of them acting to protect and defend the king, as that is their primary purpose. Throughout the first five books there is (with one exception) at least one Kingsguard with the king. The only exception is when Lord Commander Jaime Lannister calls a meeting of all of the Kingsguard, and the formality of assuring that the king is guarded by trustworthy stand-ins is observed. At the conclusion of a very short meeting the assigned Kingsguard returns to the king without delay.

Fred's assertion that someone could extract a vow from a Kingsguard that would countermand the requirement of a Kingsguard being with the king was based upon the king being searched for and his children (royal blood) were escorted by Kingsguard, the one escorting the female having sworn a vow. The relationship to the tower of joy is questionable to say the least.

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Not to mention that Cat is hardly the only woman in Winterfell who had the opportunity to compare the boys, yet no suspicion ever reached her ears.

I wonder how much attention Catelyn payed baby Jon. Jon seems to have tried and avoid her during his final years at Winterfell at least, perhaps she avoided him when the boy was still too young to understand?

But also, in Cat's mind, it isn't possible for Jon to have been conceived before they got married, I think. Ned returned from the south with a babe. Before their wedding, he hadn't been south of the Eyrie for a few months. He went south again after their wedding, and returned home after more than 9 months with a babe a few months old.

Had the child been conceived before Ned left the Eyrie, the child would have been about 1,5 years old. Such a difference (1,5 years against a few months) will be seen.

Might it be that something like this affected Catelyn's thinking process about Jon's birth? Because I can't imagine her inquiring about Jon's nameday and such...

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I take issue with a few of these points.

I don't have Dangerous women with me so I can't give a page number, but right after the description of Rhaenyra's coronation in King's Landing, which happened the same day Aegon fled with Larys, etc., it says that while this was happening Criston Cooe and Aemond left for the 18 day march to Harrenhal. I don't think this matters because when Larys gave the order to the King's guards, he had know way to know whether Cole was alive or dead -- eupither way, Cole just wasn't available to give orders.

I am fine with the idea that Larys was giving orders in the king's name, since the king wasn't able to give orders and Larys as a member of the Small Council was the only one around to take charge. If you'll agree that Rhaegar could give an order in the king's name to the three who stayed at the Tower of Joy and that they would obey it even if they knew there were no King's guards with the king.

Page 723 Lord Commander Criston Cole is made Hand (conflict of interest, good question for GRRM)

Larys Strong shows a list of those that attended Queen Rhaenyra's coronation on Dragonstone

Page 725 Aegon and Sunfyre are wounded @ Rook's Rest

Aemond took the crown, styling himself Protector of the Realm

Page 733 Aemond and Criston Cole depart King's Landing headed for Harrenhal instead of waiting for Aegon to take up the sword again or any reinforcements from the Reach

Page 736 King's Landing Falls and Aegon is mentioned being abed and lost in poppy dreams

Page 738 Aemond and Criston Cole arrive at Harrenhal (19 days march)

Page 739 Aemond and Criston Cole debate how to answer the queen's attacks @ Harrenhal

Page 740 Aemond and Criston Cole part ways, Criston Cole to join Hightower's forces, Aemond to mount dragon attack

So, my skimming wasn't accurate on timeline, but rescanning revealed a little detail that seemed to get overlooked.

Now, the question arises who is truly the king? Is it Aemond wearing the crown, while Aegon is incapacitated? We have a group of two children a burned and drugged man, and three knights making their way through the tunnels and up and down the ladders Tyrion described. I don't think that we have much in the quote from the books to determine one way or the other. And there is no test of Ser Fell's vow, we don't know what wording was chosen, nor do we know that he would abandon a king to threat to keep his vow to protect Aegon's daughter.

The three at the tower of joy have many choices, yet they all three stay, say that they are Kingsguard and have sworn a vow, and fight to the death, even though they know of Viserys not having a Kingsguard with him. The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect him from harm or threat. The seven that the three at the tower of joy face are not threatening Viserys, but King Robert is. He can send catspaws to Dragonstone, and is building a fleet to assault Dragonstone. These three, not a one of them are thinking of protecting Viserys. Why? The only answer is that they are protecting a better claim to the throne at the tower of joy. We know that Lyanna gave birth recently. We know that Ned claimed a bastard boy of the right age. We know about Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying of a blue rose that grows from a chink in a wall of ice. (Wall of Ice) There are all sorts of little clues strewn about, but you may keep denying.

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It should not come too much as a surprise that, like in our world, all those nobles are even a tad closer related to each other than the rest of the world is... or not? Now the proof is a bit harder to find...

I think a similar dialogue triggers Cersei's "you win or you die" quote.*

There is a thread called Egg hatched three heads: Stark, Lannister, Baratheon that juggles along the notion of everyone on stage being a kissing cousin.

* I am mistaken, that may have been in the show, it is not in the book.

That is an interesting theory, because some have speculated, given all the holes in the Stark family tree of the Ladys of Winterfell, as well as GRRMS cryptic remark about Lady Stark, (Rickards wife), is "Lady Stark," that perhaps in their past, there could have been a Targaryen bride as with the Berantheons.

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I wonder what the song was that Rhaegar sang that made the wolf maid cry?



I don't know if the song of dead kings might, but what of the song of Duncan and Jenny?



The Maesters were taken aback at Rhaegars intellect, so I've often thought that perhaps the the gossip of the daughter of Winterfell chasing off three squires had made it's way back to him and that is how he found out who tKotLT was.


The same KotLT who made the squires apologize, therefore Rhaegar may have been aware of, or onto Lyanna before she even knew it.


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The one given above, that Rhaegar read about the prophecy in a book. He apparently radically changed his lifestyle at a young age after reading it, declaring he "must be a warrior".

It's not ironclad either, but at least there's a hint there that we lack for the alternative.

Yeah that's fine. I had to ask because you never know what people will say and I honestly had not heard the GoHH theory. I have a very opposite stance of her involvement with Rhaegar if any. For all I know you were going to tell me the Moon came came down and told him. At which point I might have had to quit the forum.

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