R + L = J v 74

[Ser Creighton]

I wonder what the song was that Rhaegar sang that made the wolf maid cry?

I don't know if the song of dead kings might, but what of the song of Duncan and Jenny?

The Maesters were taken aback at Rhaegars intellect, so I've often thought that perhaps the the gossip of the daughter of Winterfell chasing off three squires had made it's way back to him and that is how he found out who tKotLT was.

The same KotLT who made the squires apologize, therefore Rhaegar may have been aware of, or onto Lyanna before she even knew it.

Oddly enough I think he sang Jenny's song, I actually have a reason for that, but this is R+L=J and not Creightons Crackpots.

[Alia of the knife]

Oddly enough I think he sang Jenny's song, I actually have a reason for that, but this is R+L=J and not Creightons Crackpots.

Well, isn't the speculation of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship, and how they came to be a big factor in R+L=J?

They didn't find him under a turnip leaf

[Dagda]

That is an interesting theory, because some have speculated, given all the holes in the Stark family tree of the Ladys of Winterfell, as well as GRRMS cryptic remark about Lady Stark, (Rickards wife), is "Lady Stark," that perhaps in their past, there could have been a Targaryen bride as with the Berantheons.

On the opposite side of the equation, there isn't a Sept in Winterfall until Cat arrives. That would argue that there were no Southern Stark wives.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well it seems the thread is in a weird place. Stopped in because I ran across something and thought of you guys. Well ran across a couple of things, I thought I read about this before but can't find anything, thought maybe someone here would remember. Was not going to post it cause it's odd and yet would seem to fit the current mood. It's odd in a good way, just an idea and a couple of little quotes.

Back when Joff was alive one of his KG was not a knight and known as his dog. Sandor of course. So with the Jon is a secret Targ king thing I just kind of had this thought. Joff has his dog and Jon has his wolf. So I wanted to see if I could make a connection. Funny enough I did, though it was buy accident and I think probably mentioned before though I don't remember. I was trying to explain shadows to someone who thought, shadows meant someone was a Targ, though I tried to explain it's really about the context it is used in. Ghost of course is white that's the obvious. But the obscure, he is called by Jon his white Shadow.

Dance chapter 2.

"Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side."

Dance chapter 7.

"Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side."

Ser Ghost of Winterfell LC of the Kings guard. You know there are parallels and there are parallels but it's identical phrasing. Of course Jon left him behind, when he was advised to keep him around for protection. I know it's no blue rose, but I mean come on.

I have something else but I am apprehensive to post it as it may upset someone, it's just a few quotes most likely regarding Jon though it has nothing to do with his death. Just not a lot of people are fans of the idea. But it's similar to the above. Very similar, different subject but it has near identical phrasing.

Another oddity between Dany and Jon is that Dany of course had Jorah Mormont as he sworn sword and Jon had Mormonts sword. It's obvious but it's never really talked about, that I know of.

You know Dany of course is a rightful Queen of house Targaryen, I can't really blame her for not knowing about Jon as some do for some odd reason. Just like I don't blame Jon for not knowing his parentage. If Martin is using these kinds of blatant parallels and she is a queen then that makes Jon? Dany of course has the obvious symbolism, but Jon has the same symbolism it's just obscure, and he is a boy of course.

I think those are both very interesting observations. And I'd be interested in whatever else you've got. A lot of people would rather look at evidence and parallels from the text, rather than endless stubborn posturing about the size of babies. :p

Oddly enough I think he sang Jenny's song, I actually have a reason for that, but this is R+L=J and not Creightons Crackpots.

C'mon, tell us your reason! Cracked pots? Have you read the last two threads? The song R sang to L is highly relevant and if you've got something to support it, why not share?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

On the opposite side of the equation, there isn't a Sept in Winterfall until Cat arrives. That would argue that there were no Southern Stark wives.

Or no religious Southern Stark wives?

C'mon, tell us your reason! Cracked pots? Have you read the last two threads? The song R sang to L is highly relevant and if you've got something to support it, why not share?

:agree: B)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

On the opposite side of the equation, there isn't a Sept in Winterfall until Cat arrives. That would argue that there were no Southern Stark wives.

A good point, but we do have reason to believe that a Stark married a Manderly in the generation after the Dance. Not Southern, but she most likely would have worshipped the Seven.

eta-- Good point Alia, I was thinking along those lines right after I posted :)

[Alia of the knife]

On the opposite side of the equation, there isn't a Sept in Winterfall until Cat arrives. That would argue that there were no Southern Stark wives.

A really good point, but I wonder how much Ned is the anomaly and "Southronized," (though he does keep to his gods), and allows this, whereas his more stern predecessors would not have?

[Alia of the knife]

A good point, but we do have reason to believe that a Stark married a Manderly in the generation after the Dance. Not Southern, but she most likely would have worshipped the Seven.

eta-- Good point Alia, I was thinking along those lines right after I posted :)

And I believe there is a good theory that another Stark daughter who might have found herself in a delicate condition was given to the Vale?, (I don't remember the particulars). :blushing:

[stateofdissipation]

Page 723 Lord Commander Criston Cole is made Hand (conflict of interest, good question for GRRM)

Larys Strong shows a list of those that attended Queen Rhaenyra's coronation on Dragonstone

Page 725 Aegon and Sunfyre are wounded @ Rook's Rest

Aemond took the crown, styling himself Protector of the Realm

Page 733 Aemond and Criston Cole depart King's Landing headed for Harrenhal instead of waiting for Aegon to take up the sword again or any reinforcements from the Reach

Page 736 King's Landing Falls and Aegon is mentioned being abed and lost in poppy dreams

Page 738 Aemond and Criston Cole arrive at Harrenhal (19 days march)

Page 739 Aemond and Criston Cole debate how to answer the queen's attacks @ Harrenhal

Page 740 Aemond and Criston Cole part ways, Criston Cole to join Hightower's forces, Aemond to mount dragon attack

So, my skimming wasn't accurate on timeline, but rescanning revealed a little detail that seemed to get overlooked.

Now, the question arises who is truly the king? Is it Aemond wearing the crown, while Aegon is incapacitated? We have a group of two children a burned and drugged man, and three knights making their way through the tunnels and up and down the ladders Tyrion described. I don't think that we have much in the quote from the books to determine one way or the other. And there is no test of Ser Fell's vow, we don't know what wording was chosen, nor do we know that he would abandon a king to threat to keep his vow to protect Aegon's daughter.

The three at the tower of joy have many choices, yet they all three stay, say that they are Kingsguard and have sworn a vow, and fight to the death, even though they know of Viserys not having a Kingsguard with him. The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect him from harm or threat. The seven that the three at the tower of joy face are not threatening Viserys, but King Robert is. He can send catspaws to Dragonstone, and is building a fleet to assault Dragonstone. These three, not a one of them are thinking of protecting Viserys. Why? The only answer is that they are protecting a better claim to the throne at the tower of joy. We know that Lyanna gave birth recently. We know that Ned claimed a bastard boy of the right age. We know about Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying of a blue rose that grows from a chink in a wall of ice. (Wall of Ice) There are all sorts of little clues strewn about, but you may keep denying.

The three at the tower of joy have many choices., yet they all three stay, say that they are Kingsguard

No choices are given in the tower of joy:

Ned states that the Tyrells have bent the knee

Ned States Ser Derry has fled

Arthur states that our (whent, dayne, and hightower) knees don't bend so easily

Hightower states Derry was not kings guard, and kingsguard does not flee. Arthur adds then or now.

This does not state the obvious. We are kingsguard. or we will not surrender or flee.

say that they are Kingsguard and have sworn a vow

The saying we are is covered earlier. Arthur says we swore a vow. The vow he was referring has no direct or indirect object. There are not linguistic, logical, or situational cues to prove either a direct or indirect object.

The claim that it is obviously the KG vow ignores the fact that the KG obviously swore a vow. If this case, Arthur's comments went relevant, relevant, statement of the obvious.

and fight to the death-- this is accurate

even though they know of Viserys not having a Kingsguard with him.

They also knew Aerys and Rhaegar were dead.

There is no information exchanged on the fate of Aegon the new king. One may asume that because Ned did not mention him and the Kingsguard does not mention him they knew he was dead. However this is an assumption and proof of nothing. There is mention of Ser Willem being with Viserys and Rhaella, who LC states is a good man and true.

The first duty of the Kingsguard is to protect him from harm or threat.

Adding this line that did not appear in the scene and may not be found in the text to have been attributed to Whent, Dayne or Hightower is either lazy or deliberately misleading. It is an extension from the assumption of Arthur's statement. It's inclusion only goes to show the weakness of the assertion.

The seven that the three at the tower of joy face are not threatening Viserys, but King Robert is.

This statement is either stating the obvious: the tower of joy is not Dragonstone or it is stating that Robert and not Ned and crew are the threat to Viserys though neither Ned nor Robert is currently at Dragonstone.

King Robert (a threat to Viserys) is. He can send catspaws to Dragonstone, and is building a fleet to assault Dragonstone.

The catspaws to dragonstone is a fabrication. the fleet Robert had Stannis build took over 6 months to get there. Additionally, no information on the plans to assault dragonstone or harm Viserys are mentioned in the exchange. The statement has no relation to what happened at the ToJ. It is simply another attempt to establish that the Kingsguard did not think Viserys was king and an attempt to infer that they were in fact protecting the king.

These three, not a one of them are thinking of protecting Viserys. No thoughts of the three are given. Not one of them is thinking of protecting the ToJ. Not one of them is thinking of the Kingsguard vow. Not one of them thinks of a claim to the throne. Why? Because they are not PoV characters. We are only given what they say and do. None of them mentions Viserys. None of them mention protecting the ToJ. None of them mention the Kingsguard vow. Not one of them mentions a claim to the throne.

The only answer is that they are protecting a better claim to the throne at the tower of joy. There are many possible answers. However, their extremely limited dialogue makes any answer an educated guess at best.

We know that Lyanna gave birth recently. We know that Ned claimed a bastard boy of the right age. We know about Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying of a blue rose that grows from a chink in a wall of ice. (Wall of Ice) There are all sorts of little clues strewn about, but you may keep denying.

There all sorts of clues all over the text. This is not a denial of the clues or of your conclusion. It is a denial of the method used to reach that conclusion. It is an assertion that the KG at the tower of joy is as much of a clue as the blue rose, lyanna's bed of blood, Ned's failure to call Jon his son and the rest. It is a clue and not a proof.

I agree that the text supports your conclusion much like i agree that the text supports the R+L=J conclusion. However if you were to assert that Dany's vision proved R+L=J; I would examine the claim and respond as I have here.

[Moondancer]

Ser Creighton,

When GRRM was asked why he didn't give us the lyrics to Jenny's song, he said (paraphrasing) that his effort didn't give justice to the sentiment the song has to convey. It wasn't haunting enough.

Many were suggesting that Lyanna's steely disposition in conjunction with her softer moments (being moved by a song) is to show a perfect blend of Arya and Sansa, or rather a perfect blend of a Northern Lady.

Your suggestion is very interesting, for it makes room for another dimension of interpretation.

When you look at the scene from your perspective, it makes perfect sense. "Why didn't I think of this sooner?!"

Only a song of such emotional range could melt (an exemplary) northern girl. :)

So, maybe "intuitive strike of genius" instead of "crackpot"? ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I wonder how much attention Catelyn payed baby Jon. Jon seems to have tried and avoid her during his final years at Winterfell at least, perhaps she avoided him when the boy was still too young to understand?

But also, in Cat's mind, it isn't possible for Jon to have been conceived before they got married, I think. Ned returned from the south with a babe. Before their wedding, he hadn't been south of the Eyrie for a few months. He went south again after their wedding, and returned home after more than 9 months with a babe a few months old.

Had the child been conceived before Ned left the Eyrie, the child would have been about 1,5 years old. Such a difference (1,5 years against a few months) will be seen.

Might it be that something like this affected Catelyn's thinking process about Jon's birth? Because I can't imagine her inquiring about Jon's nameday and such...

It's an interesting discussion to me because, for whatever reason, I'd always imagined Jon being slightly older than Robb. And after reading all these posts, it seems that may have been incorrect. Still, when you get right down to the text, it's not an age discrepancy that ultimately irks Catelyn - it's the mere fact that Ned brought the bastard home all.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned of at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep...

(AGOT, Chapter 6)

Also, I was quite surprised, when I reread Jon's goodbyes to Bran (still in a coma), to see the intensity of hatred Catelyn seemed to bear toward Jon in that scene. I don't know whether it surprised me more because she'd already lived with him in the house for 14-15 years at that point, or because I couldn't recall later references to the relationship inspiring such passion. Either way - even considering her raw emotional state following Bran's fall (a full "fortnight" earlier) - the Catelyn in that scene comes across as unusually, almost incredibly, intense. So after a while I decided it was probably something more than a simply reflection of her feelings toward Jon - it was probably a foreshadowing of her reprise as Lady Stoneheart...

Lady Stark looked over. For a moment she did not seem to recognize him. Finally she blinked. "What are you doing here?" she asked in a voice strangely flat and emotionless.

"I came to see Bran," Jon said. "To say good-bye."

Her face did not change. Her long auburn hair was dull and tangled. She looked as though she had aged twenty years. "You've said it. Now go away."

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. "Please," he said.

Something cold moved in her eyes. "I told you to leave," she said. "We don't want you here."

...

"I wanted him to stay here with me," Lady Stark said softly.

Jon watched her, wary. She was not even looking at him. She was talking to him, but for a part of her, it was as though he were not even in the room.

"I prayed for it," she said dully. "He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered."

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before...

(AGOT, Chapter 10)

Actually, now that I look that over... I wonder how much to read into that scene. If Catelyn is Lady Stoneheart in that scene, and Bran is depicted as a skeletal, bird-like figure... I wonder about that last line before Jon leaves the room: "It should have been you." What more, if anything, could that mean in the context of a foreshadowing scene? Hmmm. <_<

[Dagda]

Or no religious Southern Stark wives?

Always possible, but unlikely. The way things work in my neck of the woods, women drive religious belief. ;)

If it was a Targ, they would have brought a Sept since it's part of their power structure.

[Dagda]

A good point, but we do have reason to believe that a Stark married a Manderly in the generation after the Dance. Not Southern, but she most likely would have worshipped the Seven.

eta-- Good point Alia, I was thinking along those lines right after I posted :)

There haven't been many inroads into the North by Andal customs. The only one that comes to mind is the removal of First Night. The Manderlys are a odd case since they are family on the run and for the most part would bow if a Stark sneezed.

[Dagda]

A really good point, but I wonder how much Ned is the anomaly and "Southronized," (though he does keep to his gods), and allows this, whereas his more stern predecessors would not have?

He may also have missed his family mission statement when his father and brother died.

[Alia of the knife]

It's an interesting discussion to me because, for whatever reason, I'd always imagined Jon being slightly older than Robb. And after reading all these posts, it seems that may have been incorrect. Still, when you get right down to the text, it's not an age discrepancy that ultimately irks Catelyn - it's the mere fact that Ned brought the bastard home all.

Also, I was quite surprised, when I reread Jon's goodbyes to Bran (still in a coma), to see the intensity of hatred Catelyn seemed to bear toward Jon in that scene. I don't know whether it surprised me more because she'd already lived with him in the house for 14-15 years at that point, or because I couldn't recall later references to the relationship inspiring such passion. Either way - even considering her raw emotional state following Bran's fall (a full "fortnight" earlier) - the Catelyn in that scene comes across as unusually, almost incredibly, intense. So after a while I decided it was probably something more than a simply reflection of her feelings toward Jon - it was probably a foreshadowing of her reprise as Lady Stoneheart...

Actually, now that I look that over... I wonder how much to read into that scene. If Catelyn is Lady Stoneheart in that scene, and Bran is depicted as a skeletal, bird-like figure... I wonder about that last line before Jon leaves the room: "It should have been you." What more, if anything, could that mean in the context of a foreshadowing scene? Hmmm. <_<

Good catch on the bolded. :bowdown:

Between Jaimies daughter Myrcella almost being killed by DS as he tried to kill Bran, and then this, I think the old gods have quite a reach.

Always possible, but unlikely. The way things work in my neck of the woods, women drive religious belief. ;)

If it was a Targ, they would have brought a Sept since it's part of their power structure.

But even with Cats Sept., one gets the feeling as she looks at the Weirwoods that though she has tried, she has failed, even with Sansa, and as far as the Targaryens and the Seven go, I think for them it's more a matter of accomodating the masses, though to be sure, there are those like Queen Naerys who were devout.

.

[MtnLion]

It's an interesting discussion to me because, for whatever reason, I'd always imagined Jon being slightly older than Robb. And after reading all these posts, it seems that may have been incorrect. Still, when you get right down to the text, it's not an age discrepancy that ultimately irks Catelyn - it's the mere fact that Ned brought the bastard home all.

The way I read it:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep...

(AGOT, Chapter 6)

She is not surprised that Ned fathered a bastard after marrying her, but displays the fruits of his infidelity, calling him son (even though we never see that). Ned is saying, "I was unfaithful, and fathered a boy," in Catelyn's eyes. If he had kept the child out of sight it would have been less of an affront, but still a source of discomfort.

[Ghost's Shadow]

A good point, but we do have reason to believe that a Stark married a Manderly in the generation after the Dance. Not Southern, but she most likely would have worshipped the Seven.

eta-- Good point Alia, I was thinking along those lines right after I posted :)

Perhaps it was the other way around? A Stark girl went to the Manderleys? They would have a tree for her, if I'm not mistaken.

Starks gave them the land, Stark blood gets mixed with theirs over there.

[Dagda]

Actually, now that I look that over... I wonder how much to read into that scene. If Catelyn is Lady Stoneheart in that scene, and Bran is depicted as a skeletal, bird-like figure... I wonder about that last line before Jon leaves the room: "It should have been you." What more, if anything, could that mean in the context of a foreshadowing scene? Hmmm. <_<

She was just being crabby .... ( sorry, sometime I just can't help it. And NO responses with Craster in it :p )

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

She was just being crabby .... ( sorry, sometime I just can't help it. And NO responses with Craster in it :P )

Ha! A good apple analogy is never more than two steps away, if you ask me. Though Catelyn looks more like a drupe than a pome, before all is said and done. ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's an interesting discussion to me because, for whatever reason, I'd always imagined Jon being slightly older than Robb. And after reading all these posts, it seems that may have been incorrect. Still, when you get right down to the text, it's not an age discrepancy that ultimately irks Catelyn - it's the mere fact that Ned brought the bastard home all.

Also, I was quite surprised, when I reread Jon's goodbyes to Bran (still in a coma), to see the intensity of hatred Catelyn seemed to bear toward Jon in that scene. I don't know whether it surprised me more because she'd already lived with him in the house for 14-15 years at that point, or because I couldn't recall later references to the relationship inspiring such passion. Either way - even considering her raw emotional state following Bran's fall (a full "fortnight" earlier) - the Catelyn in that scene comes across as unusually, almost incredibly, intense. So after a while I decided it was probably something more than a simply reflection of her feelings toward Jon - it was probably a foreshadowing of her reprise as Lady Stoneheart...

Actually, now that I look that over... I wonder how much to read into that scene. If Catelyn is Lady Stoneheart in that scene, and Bran is depicted as a skeletal, bird-like figure... I wonder about that last line before Jon leaves the room: "It should have been you." What more, if anything, could that mean in the context of a foreshadowing scene? Hmmm. <_<

Well, I also had the feeling since the start that Jon was somewhat older, though I do think I know why I thought so for certain. In aGoT, Jon's nameday is mentioned long before Bran's and Robb's. In Clash, we learn that Bran's actually falls before Robb's. Reading the story for the first time, not paying attention to the timeline, could create the feeling of Jon being older than Robb.

We still no proof whether or not Jon or Robb is the elder though.

What annoys Catelyn is indeed that Jon is raised at Winterfell. But Catelyn's thought process about the possible mother should be taken into account as well. Catelyn considers Ashara Dayne, who is from the south. The earliest Ashara and Ned could have conceived was at the Tourney at Harrenhal, two years before, which would leave Jon more than a year older than he actually is. Which oppertunity did they have afterwards? Well, only the time Ned spend in the south. Catelyn might not have known where Ashara was exactly, during the war (we don't know either :P ) but thinking that Ashara was more north than KL would be strange, IMO. Yet, Catelyn seems to consider Ashara as an actual possibility, even though when Ned got in the vicinity of KL, there was not enough time for a pregnancy.

Catelyn seems to hate Jon with high levels, and wouldn't seem interested in anything Jon-related, except for when Robb was besting Jon in something (Jon remarks Catelyn always gave him a "look" whenever he was better at something than Robb, like sums or swords).

Even Catelyn would grasp the notion that after leaving the Eyrie to return North (something that went incredibly slow, and thus took a few months), Ned could only have fathered a child after marrying her (or he would have had to have fathered Jon on a campfollower from the north, but Cat never seems to think about that). And fathering a child on a woman before Jon Arryn raised his banners, would leave Jon about 1,5 years old upon arriving at Winterfell. So if Cat believes that Ned could only have fathered a child in the south after marrying her, than the possibility of Jon being older would most likely not even occur to her, especially when the two children are so close in age and the age difference would thus not be visible.

And I doubt she ever celebrated Jon's nameday, or paid any attention to it.

As to if Ned told Jon his true nameday: Not every pregnancy lasts exactly 9 months. If Catelyn was a week or two late and Lyanna a week or two early, you create a time difference of a month.