R + L = J v 74

[Ygrain]

I think this KG-at-the-ToJ business is a lot less complex than some make it out to be. Forget the minutia of the situation. Pull back the lens for a minute and take a look at what you see: a fantasy story in which the dead Crown Prince's secret baby boy is guarded by three knights of a group called the Kingsguard. If you knew nothing else about the story, but you had to guess whether or not that baby is the heir to the throne, I bet most of you would assume he is.

But knowing more about the story you realize that there are certain obstacles in place of this baby being the heir. For example, the baby must be of legitimate birth to be the heir. And as we all know, this cannot be the case because the Crown Prince was already married. But upon closer inspection, the author has provided a solution to this problem in the form of polygamous marriage. Convenient. Again, if you knew only this, would you be more likely to believe the baby was legitimate, or not? I'm guessing it would be the former, by a good margin too. I can go on a bit further, but I think you get the point.

Because of this 'big picture' problem, people who attempt to argue against the KG's presence at the ToJ as evidence of Jon's legitimacy move right on to arguing details. Yet, as luck would have it, those same details work at least as much in favor of Jon's legitimacy as not. In fact, as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, the dots connect in a most coherent way. Strange, that.

So, from where I'm sitting, it seems to me that individuals who wish to argue against Jon's legitimacy are left only with the ability to suggest alternatives when gaps in information present themselves. Which makes it appear as if that argument has been painted into a corner, so to speak. Odd, that.

Not that most of you need convincing, but it's just something I wanted to get off my chest after watching the last thread get buried under details.

The same lens apply to the whole R+L business. Do you recall that test I took with a friend who had no knowledge of ASOIAF? I gave her the very basics on the causes of the Rebellion, "my blood", "promise me" that haunts Ned even fourteen years later and the ToJ sequence, and I asked her what she can make out of it. The answer was, "why, of course Jon is the son of his sister and that dead prince".

[J. Stargaryen]

The same lens apply to the whole R+L business. Do you recall that test I took with a friend who had no knowledge of ASOIAF? I gave her the very basics on the causes of the Rebellion, "my blood", "promise me" that haunts Ned even fourteen years later and the ToJ sequence, and I asked her what she can make out of it. The answer was, "why, of course Jon is the son of his sister and that dead prince".

Yes, I do recall your test, and I agree that the "lens" could be applied to R+L=J as a whole, since Jon's legitimacy is an extension of his parentage. However, I like to remind everyone from time to time that it can be easy to forget that there is an entire forest out there, when you're busy examining each individual tree. :)

In other words, I think the 'big picture' is often overlooked in these debates, even though it's a strong point for the pro crowd. Jon's legitimacy makes sense when you look at the evidence as a whole as well as when you break it down into details. That's not really true of the bastard argument, which focuses solely on the details. A point which goes unmentioned more than it probably should. At least in my opinion.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Excuse me if you have seen something similar before. I imagine* what lead to the three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy as follows.

(* meaning amongst other things that I have no textual evidence supporting this)

A prince is born in King's Landing, Aegon, his parent's are overjoyed, for he is the Prince that was promised. To mar some of the joy the Maesters tell the parents that the lucky mother will not be able to carry any more children. But there's the newborn prince's prophesy that wants him to marry both of his sisters Rhaenys and Visenya. And now he has only one living sister.

The parents brood a bit on this, and in sadness and what-could-we-do the story of the Queen of Love and beauty at Harrenhal is brought up again. Elia and Rhaegar make a plan and agree to keep it secret until the time infant Visenya and her mother will be introduced at court. Elia wants her children to be the saviours of the prophesy nearly as much as Rhaegar, another wife a price she definitely will pay for the sake of her children and the fate of the world.

Rhaegar tells Aerys that he will go once more on a quest to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree and this time he will surely bring him to King's Landing. He will take his personal bodyguard as usual, and asks if he may request more kingsguard if need be. Aerys thinks that's a splendid plan and with the kingsguard present, agrees to it.

Fast forward. Rhaegar and Lyanna are at the Tower of Joy when Hightower arrives, first talking to his brothers in white. They tell him, yes, Rhaegar accomplished finding the Knight of the Laughing Tree. A girl in fact, and he took her as her second legal wife. She will be giving birth to a girl, soon, so the prince says. Since there are robellious soldiers soldiering about, this is supposed to be top secret. No riding back to King's Landind or else it blows.

Rhaegar and Hightower talk. Rhaegar decides to end the Robellion at the Trident, and asks Hightower to stay until his return. He will take other white shields and no direct route so the Tower of Joy hideaway may remain a secret. Not seeing any flaw in the plan and remembering the talk back in King's Landing that Rhaegar was allowed to sequest more kingsguard when needed on his mission, Hightower instructs the northgoing knights to make report in King's Landing once they return from the Trident.

A boy is born, then news of the deaths of Aerys and Aegon arrive, and of Rhaegar's death, in whatever order - maybe all in one message, and now they suddenly guard the king.

Would that work?

(I know there's no textual evidence.)

[The guy from the Vale]

That's pretty close to my assessment of the situation too, actually. It may even be that Aerys knew by the time he sent Rhaegar that Lyanna was the KotLT, which would mean that Rhaegar abucted Lyanna precisely in order to protect her from his father's wrath. I may be wrong on that last count though.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Works for me, except that like theguyfromthevale I think it very possible that Aerys sent Rhaegar to capture Lyanna/KotLT to face the King's Justice and thus the "abduction" started as a rescue.

Interesting bit-- whom do you suppose escorted Rhaegar back to KL when he ordered Hightower to stay? We've discussed this a bit before. Just looking to see if we can add any refinement.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Furthermore, if Dayne is the finest knight that ever lived and a shining example to the world in Ned’s eyes, it can mean only one thing: he was indeed true to his KG vows till the end. Ned, whose own honour wavered only for love, would never accept any excuses why the KG weren’t with Viserys if he was the king.

Beautifully said :)

Works for me, except that like theguyfromthevale I think it very possible that Aerys sent Rhaegar to capture Lyanna/KotLT to face the King's Justice and thus the "abduction" started as a rescue.

Interesting bit-- whom do you suppose escorted Rhaegar back to KL when he ordered Hightower to stay? We've discussed this a bit before. Just looking to see if we can add any refinement.

I doubt that Gerold would have travelled all alone. He most likely would have had a squire or two with him, and perhaps some men at arms? Upon arriving at ToJ, they wouldn't have needed to set foot in the tower. They would have been spotted before arriving at the Tower, and one of the KG could have come out to meet them, speak with Gerold, and order all but Gerold to remain behind.

Once inside the Tower, Gerold and Rhaegar could speak freely, and later, Gerold could order the men accompanying him to escort Rhaegar back to KL.

There must have been people who knew about Rhaegar's location, besides Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent (and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, of course). Otherwise, Gerold could not have learned the information. People have suggested before that Rhaella knew where to find her son. That's possible, of course. But Ned had to learn of Lyanna's location as well, and Rhaella was not around when he arrived. There must have been someone else, someone who could have told Ned, if not Ned and Gerold both.

[Ygrain]

Beautifully said :)

I doubt that Gerold would have travelled all alone. He most likely would have had a squire or two with him, and perhaps some men at arms? Upon arriving at ToJ, they wouldn't have needed to set foot in the tower. They would have been spotted before arriving at the Tower, and one of the KG could have come out to meet them, speak with Gerold, and order all but Gerold to remain behind.

Once inside the Tower, Gerold and Rhaegar could speak freely, and later, Gerold could order the men accompanying him to escort Rhaegar back to KL.

There must have been people who knew about Rhaegar's location, besides Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent (and Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves, of course). Otherwise, Gerold could not have learned the information. People have suggested before that Rhaella knew where to find her son. That's possible, of course. But Ned had to learn of Lyanna's location as well, and Rhaella was not around when he arrived. There must have been someone else, someone who could have told Ned, if not Ned and Gerold both.

Thank you :-)

I think there are too many unknowns about Gerold's arrival at ToJ. Did he know where to go when he departed from KL already? Did he find out on the way? Or was he summoned, somehow?

Gerold and Ned may indeed have learned from different sources. Ashara is the most common bet for Ned, perhaps even at Lyanna's request (if there was a time window between the news of the Trident and the Sack reaching ToJ)

[Alia of the knife]

Well done! Now, where's the manual how to use your KG?

Because it is not a good question. We know already that the king can order the KG to stand aside - Robert ordered that to Barristan when hunting the boar, and the same Barristan knows that he would have to obey Dany if she assigned him to guard Hizdahr instead of her. The king/queen, though, is the person that they are sworn to, and thus the only person who can relieve them of the duty. Note also that fulfilling the duty is a collective requirement - the king needs a KG, no matter which, and as long as that one is doing his duty, they all are. Remove that one, and none of them is, and without the king's direct order, they have no excuse. The vow knows no conditions, either it is being kept, or not. If it is not being kept, and they make no attempt at its fulfilling, they are oathbreakers.

:laugh: Thanks,

And given my earlier question about what Whent and Dayne were doing with Rhaegar to start with, the King finally finding out that Lyanna was tKoTLt and sent them to arrest her on her way to Brandons wedding, makes since because they are obeying the Kings orders, but then Rhaegar steps in and it turns into a rescue.

Either that, or Aerys sent others to arrest her and Rhaegar had Dayne and Whent to go with him to head them off, which would then account for the "swordpoint" memories.

It would have been a confusing melee.

"I still have questions as to Dayne and Whents presence with Rhaegar prior to the "abduction."

He didn't always have them 24/7 since he went alone to Summerhall, so is it posdible that Aerys eventually found out that Lyanna was tKotLT and Aerys ordered the three to arrest her, but Rhaegar took her instead to th TOJ to hide her?

Or else what were Dayne and Whent doing away from Aerys to start with?

Wouldn't they have to have Aerys permission to accompany Rhaegar on the day of the abduction?

Edited by Alia of the knife, Today, 04:42 AM. "

I wonder if there was some kind of understanding, where Dayne and Whent were frequently on retainer, so to speak, to Rhaegar, seeing as how they were so close. Otherwise, it would appear very odd and suspicious to Aerys (who already seemed suspicious of Rhaegar going to the Whent-hosted Tourney) that two members of the KG disappeared just when Rhaegar did. Instead of ordering the arrest of Brandon et. al, he doesn't call for Rhaegar's arrest. Though perhaps that's what he sent Hightower to do? Not sure if that fits.

Nice catch on the sadness. This is quite convincing.

I think maybe it was always part of Dayne, though when the future looked bright and he could dream of helping Rhaegar put the kingdom right, it was a much easier choice. The bitterness likely came after the Trident.

And once Ned has to make some difficult choices between love and duty/honor, I think he finally understands Dayne.

Excellent, as always!

Athelstan in season 2 is also a good cure for the hives :)

:drool:

Yes, I felt a little awkward looking at him that way given he's a monk, :blushing:

(Well, I guess technically he's no longer a monk, so it's okay.). :D

[Mia B.]

If Rhaegar had been using 3 KG to protect Lyanna does that mean the Mad King wouldve known about Jon? Wouldn't he have wondered where the three missing ones were or did he send them off with Rhaegar to keep him safe during the rebellion?

[Dagda]

Yeah, the contrast with Jaime immediately comes into mind as Ned thinks that Aerys had to be killed but that it shouldn't have been by Jaime's hand.

Ned is also discussed by Bob's reaction to the deaths of the Targs and the Targ children. It almost seems that Bob's hatred of the Targs goes far deeper than just the Lyanna abduction.

[Dagda]

The raven and saying his full name for the first time is b/c it's most likely Bran and not Bloodraven, we have no idea what Bran knows, but we do know Bloodraven telling Jon's parentage to Bran wasn't a high priority

Once Rhaegar's dead his leverage disappears

We have no clue what Bloodraven's priorities are since most of the time the POV has spent with him is time spent getting Bran up to speed of the weirnet.

As in everything else, we have to wait for the reveal.

[Dagda]

I think this KG-at-the-ToJ business is a lot less complex than some make it out to be. Forget the minutia of the situation. Pull back the lens for a minute and take a look at what you see: a fantasy story in which the dead Crown Prince's secret baby boy is guarded by three knights of a group called the Kingsguard. If you knew nothing else about the story, but you had to guess whether or not that baby is the heir to the throne, I bet most of you would assume he is.

But knowing more about the story you realize that there are certain obstacles in place of this baby being the heir. For example, the baby must be of legitimate birth to be the heir. And as we all know, this cannot be the case because the Crown Prince was already married. But upon closer inspection, the author has provided a solution to this problem in the form of polygamous marriage. Convenient. Again, if you knew only this, would you be more likely to believe the baby was legitimate, or not? I'm guessing it would be the former, by a good margin too. I can go on a bit further, but I think you get the point.

Because of this 'big picture' problem, people who attempt to argue against the KG's presence at the ToJ as evidence of Jon's legitimacy move right on to arguing details. Yet, as luck would have it, those same details work at least as much in favor of Jon's legitimacy as not. In fact, as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, the dots connect in a most coherent way. Strange, that.

So, from where I'm sitting, it seems to me that individuals who wish to argue against Jon's legitimacy are left only with the ability to suggest alternatives when gaps in information present themselves. Which makes it appear as if that argument has been painted into a corner, so to speak. Odd, that.

Not that most of you need convincing, but it's just something I wanted to get off my chest after watching the last thread get buried under details.

The circular arguments were giving me headache too ... :)

I think the main split is between those who see a need for Jon to be legitimate, and those if us who see a more compelling storyline with him being a bastard.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why on Earth's name would the first things Bloodraven should do is tell Bran who Jon's parents are? In fact, it's likely that he's keeping that hidden (see Bran seeing Ned in the crypts, telling him a sad story to do with Jon - the memory of it is 'gone') so that cart can be played at the appropriate time.

Bloodraven telling Bran might result into Jon getting to know it through Bran (already made contact once) and that gets both Bran and Jon distracted from what's more important right now.

[Ygrain]

I think the main split is between those who see a need for Jon to be legitimate, and those if us who see a more compelling storyline with him being a bastard.

If you mean by this "those who see the story elements pointing to Jon being legitimate", then you're right about the split, though "compelling" has little to nothing to do with analysing a story.

[Dagda]

If you mean by this "those who see the story elements pointing to Jon being legitimate", then you're right about the split, though "compelling" has little to nothing to do with analysing a story.

Compelling has everything to do with the plot as it goes on. Isolating plot points is what drives speculation, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time on specific analyzation. What's important and what isn't, that's the driver behind all this fun.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Compelling has everything to do with the plot as it goes on. Isolating plot points is what drives speculation, otherwise you wouldn't spend so much time on specific analyzation. What's important and what isn't, that's the driver behind all this fun.

I think this is right. Martin's entire project is very impressive, not least because he deliberately structures his narrative to allow for different interpretations and different possible outcomes. Identifying ambiguities, then wondering which of them he ultimately resolves and how, is half the fun of rereading these books. I don't expect him to resolve all of them - frankly, I think it's better for the legacy of his story if he leaves some questions unanswered. Which is not to say he doesn't confirm more about Jon's birth and parentage - I expect that's coming.

[FittleLinger]

The same lens apply to the whole R+L business. Do you recall that test I took with a friend who had no knowledge of ASOIAF? I gave her the very basics on the causes of the Rebellion, "my blood", "promise me" that haunts Ned even fourteen years later and the ToJ sequence, and I asked her what she can make out of it. The answer was, "why, of course Jon is the son of his sister and that dead prince".

I've done the exact same experiment with the exact same outcome. Those who believe that Jon is not legitimate are the ones splitting hairs here.

Has Martin left it ambigous enough to make it be possible? Yes he has.

Is the first and easiest answer that Jon is not legitimate - no it's not.

Do I care - honestly, not that much. I do care, however, about clues and where they point us. It can be twisted and turned, of course, to fit the other way around. I simply don't see the need to, because as far as what the info shows us, the more logical conclusion is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Question: If I'm not mistaken, a theme in the books was basically 'doing right by the woman and marry her'. Has there ever been a thread about how many times that's mentioned/hinted at in the books?

[Ygrain]

I've done the exact same experiment with the exact same outcome. Those who believe that Jon is not legitimate are the ones splitting hairs here.

Has Martin left it ambigous enough to make it be possible? Yes he has.

Is the first and easiest answer that Jon is not legitimate - no it's not.

Do I care - honestly, not that much. I do care, however, about clues and where they point us. It can be twisted and turned, of course, to fit the other way around. I simply don't see the need to, because as far as what the info shows us, the more logical conclusion is that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

:agree:

Question: If I'm not mistaken, a theme in the books was basically 'doing right by the woman and marry her'. Has there ever been a thread about how many times that's mentioned/hinted at in the books?

If there has been one, I missed it. I did touch the theme in my R+L essay in the Romance thread - with Robb and Jeyne, and, curiously, Craster. I couldn't think of any other occurence then and I cannot even now.

[MtnLion]

Don't you mean, after Aerys and Rhaegar died? They didn't know Aegon was "dead."

Sorry, they certainly did. Prince Viserys is not important unless Aegon is dead.