R + L = J v 74

[MtnLion]

Brandon came to King's Landing yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die. I am sure that at some point Aerys asked why the heir to Winterfell was upset with Rhaegar and found out that Rhaegar had disappeared with Lyanna.

Nobody knew where Rhaegar was. Nowhere is it mentioned that Lyanna was involved in Brandon's tirade in King's Landing. But, you still need to show where there is a hint that Aerys knew about Lyanna. Then you need to explain why Aerys would hold her hostage, but not close, like the other hostages; Jaime and Elia.

[Ghost's Shadow]

By the way? Lol @ Aerys keeping Jaime around as a hostage, with a sword in his hand. :)

[MtnLion]

By the way? Lol @ Aerys keeping Jaime around as a hostage, with a sword in his hand. :)

Classic Fail Of course, the sword was to allow him to fetch his father's head for Aerys, too. :owned:

[Fred of Ashai]

Who is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and where is he?

Ser Criton Cole. While this is happenening, he is busy leading an army on a march to Harrenhal.

[stateofdissipation]

Only the king can give an order to the Kingsguard I believe has been very well documented. The primary mission of the Kingsguard is to guard the king is another very well documented facet.

Rhaegar has his assigned bodyguards of Whent and Dayne, and he can give them orders. What is interesting is that he apparently gave Lord Commander Hightower an order which he followed. Not that it really has a lot of bearing on the scene at the tower, since we can judge that on its own merits.

Let's drop back to Jaime as Lord Commander for just a moment. He gives the Kingsguard the option of checking with higher powers if they don't see the logic behind an order from the king. Of those with decision making capabilities, Jaime lists himself, as Lord Commander, and Cersei as the Queen. He does not include and Small Council members, and surprisingly he does not include the Hand, which has been included in other lists. The Hand speaks for the king . . . Larys does not.

ETA: If you are sincerely questioning this, why not start with the scene at the tower? Lord Commander Hightower says that he would not have abandoned King's Landing to protect Viserys instead of Aerys. Arthur agrees, saying then when Viserys fled, and now meaning they had something more valuable to protect at the tower than Queen Rhaella and/or Prince Viserys. Come up with conflicting quotes. ;)

You can play "what if" games all you want, with yourself. But, constantly trying to refute a solidly documented wall of support, with unfounded suggestion is not going to build any credibility here, and will get you ignored sooner, rather than later.

What is games...

AD our knees don't bend so easily

Ned comments on Ser Darry fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys

LC says Darry an honorable man and true, But not of the kingsgard. Kingsguard does not flee

Lord Commander Hightower says that he would not have abandoned King's Landing---This is paraphrasing

to protect Viserys---This is an invention

instead of Aerys---This is a false dilemma

AD adds then or now.

Arthur agrees, saying then when Viserys fled, and now-- This is paraphrasing

now meaning they had something...-- This is an invention

more valuable to protect at the tower than Queen Rhaella and/or Prince Viserys-- This is a false dilemma

AD states that KG did not flee and will not flee in the present situation--paraphrasing

LC explained we swore a vow

If the vow the LC mentioned was the kingsguard vow, then they were 1. obeying the kings orders, 2 keeping the kings secrets, and 3 protecting the king.

The last order by the king to the LC was to return Rhaegar to KL

There were no known King´s secrets revealed by Ned in the ToJ

There was no known King in the ToJ

If R+L=J and R married L or Jon was then LC was protecting the king.

R was married to Elia

Elia was declared barren by the Maesters

The practice of setting aside a wife is mentioned by Cersei and practiced by Tyrion

There was a very old, the time of dragons, precedence for polygamy.

A decree can legitimize a bastard practiced by Robb for Jon and Roose for Ramsay

Jon was born over a year after Lyanna went missing

there was sufficient time to find a remedy before Jon's birth.

Note:

Using Jamie as an example or source for information on or about the KG is not a good idea

Kingslayer-- common name

Our false brother--LC

He swore a vow to protect him and he killed him-Ned

Had sex with the queen

Fathered the sons of the king

Made LC of the KG for his son

Inventing the limits of others to give orders to the kingsguard is not a good idea.

Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion-- Tyrion believed the order could only come from Cersei or Joffrey.

I am four square for a solid wall of evidence(support is for athletes) Not inventions and false dilemmas.

Admitting that you don't know is the first step towards wisdom. One will never learn what he thinks he already knows.

[MtnLion]

Ser Criton Cole. While this is happenening, he is busy leading an army on a march to Harrenhal.

What the wiki says:

King Aegon II Targaryen escaped the Fall of King's Landing, however. He was smuggled out by the Master of Whisperers, Larys Strong, via secret passages. Aegon was protected by two of his Kingsguard knights, Ser Willis Fell and Ser Rickard Thorne, and was accompanied by his children, Princess Jaehaera and Prince Maelor.

I will do a reread tonight. But it would do you well to give a quote that supports your position.

[MtnLion]

Admitting that you don't know is the first step towards wisdom. One will never learn what he thinks he already knows.

Please take your own advice, and if you have a serious thought, perhaps you would like to document it with supporting quotes in a logical manner. It is not my job to school you in reading comprehension or expressing yourself.

[Ygrain]

Please take your own advice, and if you have a serious thought, perhaps you would like to document it with supporting quotes in a logical manner. It is not my job to school you in reading comprehension or expressing yourself.

:agree:

[Fred of Ashai]

What the wiki says:

King Aegon II Targaryen escaped the Fall of King's Landing, however. He was smuggled out by the Master of Whisperers, Larys Strong, via secret passages. Aegon was protected by two of his Kingsguard knights, Ser Willis Fell and Ser Rickard Thorne, and was accompanied by his children, Princess Jaehaera and Prince Maelor.

I will do a reread tonight. But it would do you well to give a quote that supports your position.

I put the quote under spoiler tags in post 97 in this thread.

[MtnLion]

I put the quote under spoiler tags in post 97 in this thread.

It was Lord Larys Strong, the Clubfoot, who spirited the king and his children out of the city when the queen's dragons first appeared in the skies above King's Landing. So as not to pass through any of the city gates, where they might be seen and remembered, Lord Larys led them out through some secret passage of Maegor the Cruel, of which only he had knowledge.

It was Lord Larys who decreed the fugitives should part company as well, so that even if one were taken, the others might win free. Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower. Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willas Fell, who swore to bring her safely to Storm's End. Neither knew where the other was bound, so neither could betray the other if captured.

And only Larys himself knew that the king, stripped of his finery and clad in a salt-stained fisherman's cloak, had been concealed amongst a load of codfish on a fishing skiff in the care of a bastard knight with kin on Dragonstone.

So, you are interpreting the command as coming from Larys, instead of the king? I would disagree, and certainly we have other references that would back that the commands were given by the king. ;)

ETA: Like this:

Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded (by the king) to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower. Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willas Fell (by the king), who swore (to the king) to bring her safely to Storm's End.

[DrunkSister]

JFC, another tread already?! I am hopelessly behind, but let me share this with you anyway:

Jon I, agot

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”
“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

Now why would maester Luwin say that in Jon's hearing? Jon doesn't say 'ML said ...' but 'ML says' implying that Jon often heard Luwin say it. This is not just another thing that people say of bastards that Jon overheard, but an opinion given by a maester. Why? Was Jon just a little bit quicker to develop than Robb?

If R+L=J this is quite possible, and the quote above serves as another of those hints that will have been there all along once people start rereading after the 'reveal' (hopefully in 2014WoW).

Cheers! Off to catch up :read:

[MtnLion]

JFC, another tread already?! I am hopelessly behind, but let me share this with you anyway:

Jon I, agot

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”

“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

Now why would maester Luwin say that in Jon's hearing? Jon doesn't say 'ML said ...' but 'ML says' implying that Jon often heard Luwin say it. This is not just another thing that people say of bastards that Jon overheard, but an opinion given by a maester. Why? Was Jon just a little bit quicker to develop than Robb?

If R+L=J this is quite possible, and the quote above serves as another of those hints that will have been there all along once people start rereading after the 'reveal' (hopefully in 2014WoW).

Cheers! Off to catch up :read:

Catelyn was always miffed when Jon bested Robb at swords or numbers . . . ;)

[stateofdissipation]

Please take your own advice, and if you have a serious thought, perhaps you would like to document it with supporting quotes in a logical manner. It is not my job to school you in reading comprehension or expressing yourself.

I will. I started with logic:

a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotics; especially : syntactics (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledgey

I learned that Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing the attack at your opponent. is a logical fallacy.

I learned In your earlier post you engaged in the logical fallicy called (shifting the) Burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.

Come up with conflicting quotes.

I also confirmed my use of the term False dilemma (false dichotomy, fallacy of bifurcation, black-or-white fallacy) – two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more.

Sadly I failed to find a formal name logical for the fallacy inventing facts: on a good note there is the slang term: you pulled it out of your butt.

could you be so kind as to point out any logical fallacy in the previous post.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Catelyn was always miffed when Jon bested Robb at swords or numbers . . . ;)

May he have done it a lot of times. :smug:

[MtnLion]

could you be so kind as to point out any logical fallacy in the previous post.

The logical fallacy is that you are failing at reading comprehension. The tower of joy sequence was written early in the series when the author knew what kind of secret he wanted to have, yet careful wording was required to both conceal the secret, but not be nonsense when the secret is revealed. Therefore, extremely careful analysis of each word is required, to fully benefit from what the author intends. Please refer to my analysis (At the tower of joy) in my signature line, it has lot of insight into the meanings of the words, that I don't want to repeat ad naseum.

No, I am not going to try to decipher your shorthand. I want you to be lucid and comprehensible, and spend as much time at this as I invest, in making your objections clear and concise.

[Alia of the knife]

It's not a matter of which storyline is more compelling for me at all. I just think there are way too many hints and clues pointing to Jon's legitimacy for it not to be true.

If Bael's son was considered a bastard in the North, then he must have been legitimized by Brandon the Daughterless in order to become a Stark. Jon Snow is trueborn, I'm fairly certain. However, there is a legitimized Northern bastard living in Winterfell at the moment.

This last bit brought to mind a question.

Though Ramsey was married to a fake Arya and she escaped, given that proxy marriages were quite common during the Medieval period, could he still make trouble in that regard, trying to hang on to the marriage and what he has gained through the marriage?

[MtnLion]

May he have done it a lot of times. :smug:

Certainly enough times that he could hear Maester Luwin comforting Catelyn with those words frequently. ;)

This last bit brought to mind a question.

Though Ramsey was married to a fake Arya and she escaped, given that proxy marriages were quite common during the Medieval period, could he still make trouble in that regard, trying to hang on to the marriage and what he has gained through the marriage?

I think that misrepresentation is grounds for annulment, though you do raise an interesting specter. At least until No-one arrives to set things aright.

[J. Stargaryen]

This last bit brought to mind a question.

Though Ramsey was married to a fake Arya and she escaped, given that proxy marriages were quite common during the Medieval period, could he still make trouble in that regard, trying to hang on to the marriage and what he has gained through the marriage?

It seems to me that might makes right, when it comes to the application of laws in Westeros. Look at the actions of the Lannisters during AGoT; breaking the King's peace, Jaime attacking ned, etc. Better yet, just look at Ramsay's marriage shenanigans with Lady Hornwood.

So, yeah, you could be on to something. My only concern here is that there might not be enough time for the sort legal maneuvering I think you're talking about.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

It seems to me that might makes right, when it comes to the application of laws in Westeros. Look at the actions of the Lannisters during AGoT; breaking the King's peace, Jaime attacking ned, etc. Better yet, just look at Ramsay's marriage shenanigans with Lady Hornwood.

So, yeah, you could be on to something. My only concern here is that there might not be enough time for the sort legal maneuvering I think you're talking about.

It does seem to be a might makes right setting :agree:

[FittleLinger]

This last bit brought to mind a question.

Though Ramsey was married to a fake Arya and she escaped, given that proxy marriages were quite common during the Medieval period, could he still make trouble in that regard, trying to hang on to the marriage and what he has gained through the marriage?

Things can get pretty interesting IMO. The Boltons might accuse the Lannisters that they gave them a fake Arya. Their "loyal" northeners, still in no position to oppose them directly, could be with them. The Lannisters / The throne, will accuse Littlefinger, cause ultimately he is the one who provided fArya. They turn on to him, but then shazzam - he says, "But I have Sansa". If the Manderleys have Rickon by then... You know where I'm getting, it can get a bigger mess than ever.

But that's not only offtopic, but even a bit in fanfiction territory.