Heresy 101 The Crows

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 101, the latest edition of the very fast moving thread that tries to work out what’s really going in the over-arching Song of Ice and Fire.

Essentially it is different from most in that we look beyond the simple assumption that this will be resolved by the identification of a hero variously known as Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, and that with the aid of the Children of the Forest and the dragons, this hero will rally all Westeros, ending the Game of Thrones and by uniting the factions, save the Seven Kingdoms from the Others.

Instead, as heretics, we think that things (and some characters) are not as they seem, and that it’s not going to be so straightforward. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come. Beyond that broad agreement there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning those easy assumptions and discussing possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

In the run up to Heresy 100 Mace Cooterian kindly organised a Centennial Seven project looking in depth at some of the major issues in Heresy. The resultant essays and links to the subsequent discussions on each appeared in the centennial issue and so successful was the project that we intend to run it again very soon. In the meantime, by popular request Heresy 101 kicks off with a quick and dirty essay by Professor Crow on a subject which seems of some interest, but wasn’t covered in the Centennial Seven project: the Crows.

If you are interested in writing an introductory essay for the next round please PM Mace Cooterian. At this stage we’re still thinking in terms of randomly matching writers to topics, but may be open to persuasion.

In the meantime also, here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy and will also house the archives created by the Centennial Seven project. Above all please don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

THE CROWS

Crows appear in a number of guises throughout the story and figure in it so prominently that serious consideration needs to be given as to their true role and indeed whether they too are players in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Catelyn went to the Sept and lit a candle to the Father above, for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death

In terms of large black birds with big beaks, they are of course ubiquitous both as crows and as the ravens used in Martin’s world for communication, who are also of the genus corvidae, ie; members of the crow family.

We’ll begin with the ravens, who we first encounter as oversized homing pigeons carrying what sometimes appears to be an improbably large file of correspondence from castle to castle – pigeons would probably never got off the ground with the size of some of the messages.

However, in the World Book extract there’s a hint of something more:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens, and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed in “degraded” form, down to the masters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens, but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are among the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few masters devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one was able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

Nothing of course is as it seems in Martin’s World and the stout denials in Trouserless Bob’s book have rather the opposite effect in suggesting that the business of literally being able to talk is in fact true.

We see this of course in the Lord Commander’s raven, perched first on Mormont’s shoulder and then Jon’s – which tempts the thought that once it may have perched on Qorgyle’s shoulder.

The conventional explanation is that the raven in question is being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven. This is certainly possible but I’m wary of that being so given that Bloodraven’s normal modus operandi is, or appears to be, to come in dreams as the three-eyed crow. This is a subject in itself, but before delving into it there’s also the question of the Singers and the Crows.

There was as we know a big intervention by a large number of crows when Sam and Gilly were rescued from Small Paul and his cold dead mates at the village which wasn’t called Whitetree. The show is more than a bit ambiguous here in that anyone who hasn’t read the books could easily come away with the impression that the crows led Ser Puddles to the village and then pursued Sam and Gilly afterwards. Otherwise the conventional explanation is that they are being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven.

Again I’m very wary of this. Warging one crow is credible enough, a whole flock of them is something else entirely and dangerously close to the godlike intervention Martin has reassured us won’t happen. On the other hand there is a possible parallel with the wights, who appear to be susceptible to a degree of basic control at the “follow me” or “go there and kill” sort of level.

That may be what is happening here, but once again there seems to be a close association with the Singers. Crows, unlike bats, do not live in caves, yet there are a large number of them in the Cave of Skulls (not a canonical name I know, but everybody instantly recognises it) hence the earlier suggestion, which I wholeheartedly endorse, that Crows may be to Singers what Direwolves are to Starks; that it is a warging relationship not common skinchanging; and that to paraphrase "Part of the Singer is the Crow, and part of the Crow is the Singer.".

Such a symbiotic relationship may also explain, at least in part, the mystery of the Three-eyed-Crow; why what we assume to be Bloodraven appears in Bran’s dreams as a Crow in the first place, rather than say a kindly old man, and then of course Bloodraven’s curious vagueness when directly questioned on this by Bran.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A… crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you…except in dreams.”

Its odd because although he has been watching Bran and coming to him in dreams – supposedly long before he fell – he effectively denies at the outset that he is the Crow; “Once, aye” is the opposite of yes. He was “Black of garb and black of blood” he was a crow of the Nights watch, not a three-eyed crow.

Nevertheless, if we admit a “personal” relationship between the Singers and the Crows and remember that Bloodraven is actually a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, it is easy to see that he himself is linked to the Singers through his Blackwood blood and the Crows on the Raventree weirwood – in exactly the same way that the Starks of Winterfell are linked to direwolves. Thus, perhaps, his vagueness as to whether he is the Three-eyed-Crow does not necessarily imply that he may not be the Crow, but rather that he is unaware or uncaring that this is how he manifests himself in communicating.

In discussing Crows as players it would be remiss not to mention the Morrigan, which first came into our discussions when I noticed the possible connection between a crow with three eyes and a crow goddess with three aspects. (maiden, mother and crone) That in turn led to recognition of the House Morrigen cookie: Storm Lords whose seat is the Crow’s Nest and whose sigil is a crow in flight against a storm green sky. In terms of subtlety that’s about nuanced as a train crash, given that Damphair distrusts ravens because they belong to the Storm God and the Crow Goddess is also associated with storms and in particular with the wind, hence bean sidhe, or banshee.

On balance, tempting though it is in so many ways to look for evidence of an actual Morrigan, ultimately this is GRRM’s story and I think that the Morrigan reference is significant not as indicating the presence of such a deity but rather in emphasising the real importance of the Crows, as players, just as important if not more so than the direwolves and capable of serving as the interpreters who understand the speech both of Singers and of Men.

In closing, a final point concerns the white ravens who announce Winter and seemingly don’t get on with their black cousins. This I think may hark back to the business of Bran naming his direwolf Summer; that achieving a balance between Ice and Fire requires both a King of Winter and a Summer King with their respective direwolves and ravens.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I would like to add one small thing to the three -eyed crow. In the cave of skulls, Meera asks after the three-eyed crow. Leaf is telling Bran and company To follow her deeper in the cave. Here is the passage.

(Leaf says] .... "It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you.'

'The three-eyed crow?' Asked Meera.

'The greenseer.' And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow."

This is similar to Bran's question to Bloodraven. Leaf does not say yes. She gives another title and then away she goes. I will elaborate on this with other related items in another post.

[wolfmaid7]

Great essay BC and i think this one was long overdue,Crows litter this story and i think they are a shadow in this story that has been overlooked. I am in the camp that believe that the Crows are a faction that is just as autonomous as the Direwolves and also that they too " allow" Singers/Skinchangers to bond with them.Even prior to them having Singers or because they do have Singers it is clear to me that they can't just be taken and ridden as evident by Bran's failure at first.

"but a horse that has known one rider will accept another. Young or old, these birds have all been ridden.Choose one ,and fly."

He chose one bird,and then another,without success,but the third raven looked at him with shrewd black eyes tilted its head and gave a quork,and quick as that he was not a boy looking at a raven but a raven looking at a boy (ADWD,Bran p.399 electronic version)

Moreover, i believe that the 3eyed crow is completely different from BR who i believe always came to Bran as a Weirwood tree hence the reason he had no clue as to what Bran was speaking of when he asked " are you the 3eyes crow". The below quote makes me believe that both BR through the Weirwood and the 3eyed crow were trying to get Bran,i don't know though if it was a cooperation or if the 3yed Crow was trying to run interference.

On this night he dreamed of the weirwood.It was looking at him with its deep red eyes ,calling to him with its twisted wooded mouth,and from its pale branches the three eyed crow came flapping,pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords ACOK,Bran p,255

[Urrax2]

It should be noted that the show consistently refers to ravens in situations where the books refer to crows. This probably has no significance and is intended to avoid viewer confusion with the term "crow" as applied to Watchmen. Cf. "White Walkers" rather than "Others," to avoid confusion with the show Lost, and changing Asha's name so viewers would not confuse her with Osha.

[JNR]

Also worth remembering in this context:

“Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow.”

Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes.

[Tyryan Lannister]

It should be noted that the show consistently refers to ravens in situations where the books refer to crows. This probably has no significance and is intended to avoid viewer confusion with the term "crow" as applied to Watchmen. Cf. "White Walkers" rather than "Others," to avoid confusion with the show Lost, and changing Asha's name so viewers would not confuse her with Osha.

Agree... Although, while I am willing to forgive the show changing some of the labels, I don't forgive them for changing 3EC to 3ER, if only because Thee-eyed Crow flows better

Great essay BC and i think this one was long overdue,Crows litter this story and i think they are a shadow in this story that has been overlooked. I am in the camp that believe that the Crows are a faction that is just as autonomous as the Direwolves and also that they too " allow" Singers/Skinchangers to bond with them.Even prior to them having Singers or because they do have Singers it is clear to me that they can't just be taken and ridden as evident by Bran's failure at first.

Moreover, i believe that the 3eyed crow is completely different from BR who i believe always came to Bran as a Weirwood tree hence the reason he had no clue as to what Bran was speaking of when he asked " are you the 3eyes crow". The below quote makes me believe that both BR through the Weirwood and the 3eyed crow were trying to get Bran,i don't know though if it was a cooperation or if the 3yed Crow was trying to run interference.

Maybe there is something more to Show Jojen's "the raven is you". In book, he does mention seeing a winged wolf, which he interprets as being Bran-- winged wolf = wolf-raven?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Ugh... My iPad not liking to quote....

In response to JNR above, also could be something important about Crowfood's namesake story involving a crow in particular, as opposed to any other bird/animal

[wolfmaid7]

Agree... Although, while I am willing to forgive the show changing some of the labels, I don't forgive them for changing 3EC to 3ER, if only because Thee-eyed Crow flows better

Maybe there is something more to Show Jojen's "the raven is you". In book, he does mention seeing a winged wolf, which he interprets as being Bran-- winged wolf = wolf-raven?

I don't know Jojen's interpretation maybe incorrect,which adds another complication,in that he took Bran to the wrong person.When i think of that i envision a person who had his third eye open and is seen as a Crow. I honestly, believe BR appears as the weirwood tha was calling to Bran and the only crow so to speak that has a third eye open is Jon.Maybe Jojen's task was to get Bran to the Wall.

Coupled that with Mormont's Raven,who i don't is being Warged at all,maybe it has a singer in it as well.

[Black Crow]

I don't know Jojen's interpretation maybe incorrect,which adds another complication,in that he took Bran to the wrong person.When i think of that i envision a person who had his third eye open and is seen as a Crow...

Not necessarily. If there is a link between singers and crows, perhaps that's how greenseers "fly" and see beyond the weirwoods.

[nanother]

So it's finally time to quote a few seemingly mundane tidbits about ravens (and Maester Aemon):

“I … ah … Maester Aemon wants to see you.”
It was not time for his bandages to be changed. Jon frowned suspiciously. “Why?” he demanded. Sam looked miserable. That was answer enough. “You told him, didn’t you?” Jon said angrily. “You told him that you told me.”
“I … he … Jon, I didn’t want to … he asked … I mean … I think he knew, he sees things no one else sees …”
“He’s blind,” Jon pointed out forcefully, disgusted. “I can find the way myself.” He left Sam standing there, openmouthed and quivering.
He found Maester Aemon up in the rookery, feeding the ravens.

(snip)

“Lord Mormont’s raven likes fruit and corn.”
“He is a rare bird,” the maester said. “Most ravens will eat grain, but they prefer flesh. It makes them strong, and I fear they relish the taste of blood. In that they are like men … and like men, not all ravens are alike.”

Now, what does that say about the CotF who seem to have particularly close relationship with ravens?

“Doves and pigeons can also be trained to carry messages,” the maester went on, “though the raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better able to defend itself against hawks … yet ravens are black, and they eat the dead, so some godly men abhor them. Baelor the Blessed tried to replace all the ravens with doves, did you know?” The maester turned his white eyes on Jon, smiling. “The Night’s Watch prefers ravens.”
Jon’s fingers were in the bucket, blood up to the wrist. “Dywen says the wildlings call us crows,” he said uncertainly.
“The crow is the raven’s poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood.”

So is it a purely practical preference, or ... ?

Jon wished he understood what they were talking about, and why.

:agree:

“A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man’s life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.”
Some of the ravens were still eating, long stringy bits of meat dangling from their beaks. The rest seemed to be watching him. Jon could feel the weight of all those tiny black eyes. “And this is my day … is that what you’re saying?”
Maester Aemon turned his head and looked at him with those dead white eyes. It was as if he were seeing right into his heart. Jon felt naked and exposed.

Seems like the ravens and MAester Aemon have something in common...

And to complement that, here's what Jojen says:

“With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall.”

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure if Maester Aemon has the link to the ravens which I think you are suggesting, but those quotes certainly give the very strong impression that the ravens are taking what might be termed a more than ordinary interest.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The weirwood calling to Bran could be like calling to like. Bloodraven is part of the tree, yet there are all the other greenseers in the weirwoods. The Tree calling to Bran is interesting and I think it has been calling to him his whole life.

[Melifeather]

I don't know Jojen's interpretation maybe incorrect,which adds another complication,in that he took Bran to the wrong person.When i think of that i envision a person who had his third eye open and is seen as a Crow. I honestly, believe BR appears as the weirwood tha was calling to Bran and the only crow so to speak that has a third eye open is Jon.Maybe Jojen's task was to get Bran to the Wall.

Coupled that with Mormont's Raven,who i don't is being Warged at all,maybe it has a singer in it as well.

That is actually how I see the three-eyed crow. A greenseer who is able to slip into a raven is a three-eyed crow. I think we need to drop "the" and replace it with "a or an".

I remember a reading a website about how ravens and wolves have evolved to live together, that ravens will not eat meat that wolves won't touch, but I don't remember who put a link. Here's one that I've found:

http://wolfandravens.blogspot.com

[nanother]

I'm not sure if Maester Aemon has the link to the ravens which I think you are suggesting, but those quotes certainly give the very strong impression that the ravens are taking what might be termed a more than ordinary interest.

I don't think it's necessarily a link, but a parallel. Overall, I'd guess he might be roughly the 'dragon' version of Jojen, but in this particular situation both he and the ravens see things in ways they're not supposed to. And I'm sure Martin did this on purpose. I'm just not entirely sure what that purpose is.

[wolfmaid7]

Not necessarily. If there is a link between singers and crows, perhaps that's how greenseers "fly" and see beyond the weirwoods.

It could be,but given Bran's initial lesson,it seems obvious that the Crows allow it no matter what ,which means that GS are at the mercy of the Crows so long as they 'allow" themselves to be ridden in order to give the GS's that sight. If you get what i'm saying,as the ecosystem goes the Crows have a say and it could be because the Singers in them have an effect.But me personally based on what i'm seeing in the text,don't believe "Singers" are limited only to the COTF.The Singers in the birds in the cave maybe "only" COTF or they may not.

The weirwood calling to Bran could be like calling to like. Bloodraven is part of the tree, yet there are all the other greenseers in the weirwoods. The Tree calling to Bran is interesting and I think it has been calling to him his whole life.

I think your right and that there is part of the issue in that BR was part of the collective Weirwood trees that were calling to Bran,the Crow maybe someone else entirely. That imagery looked like the Crow was trying to block that communicade between the tree and Bran. You know hijack the message.

That is actually how I see the three-eyed crow. A greenseer who is able to slip into a raven is a three-eyed crow. I think we need to drop "the" and replace it with "a or an".

I remember a reading a website about how ravens and wolves have evolved to live together, that ravens will not eat meat that wolves won't touch, but I don't remember who put a link. Here's one that I've found:

http://wolfandravens.blogspot.com

I was afraid to say it,i'm glad you said it but i was thinking the same as well that the 3eyed Crow is another GS. But Feather, i love the link i didn't think it existed like that (real life) outside of Native Indian and Celtic myths.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Here is my post from the last thread with a little editing.

I say the 3 eyed crow is summoned as a part of Bran's conciousness that manifests in dreams.

We know Bran has been around the Heart Tree his entire life. I believe the weirwood tree was calling Bran to become part of the ''weirnet' since he was born. Bran had a subconcious connection to the weirwood long before his fall. After the fall, he dreams of the three-eyed crow urging him to fly and later, the weirwood calling to him. Yet, while in his coma, he is able to realize he has a third eye to open.

The 3 eyed crow is a part of Bran from the weirwood connection that manifested from his greenseeing abilities and came to Bran's mind in the long dream of the coma.

I want to add that during the coma dream Bran speaks aloud. The Crow does not speak aloud, being in Bran's mind, and still the crow does know what Bran is thinking.

Also - Maybe the 3EC is Bloodraven also. An entity that comes in dreams, but is part of the greenseer.

[A Bastard Snow]

Is it possible (given Mormont's northern blood)that he was/had some warg/warglike powers and that part of him is now in his raven.I only bring this up because during the voting for the next Lord Commander the raven flies to jon (this is one of the main reasons he wins as the raven has essentially picked the successor to Mormont )Its possible someone/something else was controlling the bird though.It does seem like some force wanted Jon to be the Lord Commander though if that bodes well or not is something we will have to wait to know

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Is it possible (given Mormont's northern blood)that he was/had some warg/warglike powers and that part of him is now in his raven.I only bring this up because during the voting for the next Lord Commander the raven flies to jon (this is one of the main reasons he wins as the raven has essentially picked the successor to Mormont )Its possible someone/something else was controlling the bird though.It does seem like some force wanted Jon to be the Lord Commander though if that bodes well or not is something we will have to wait to know

Mormont has never been shown to be a skinchanger. So no. His raven who now hangs with Jon is a rare bird , but I do not think it belongs to anyone.. I might go so far as the Lord Commander belongs to the raven. Meaning whoever has the title of LC, the bird will be on his side as long as the raven accepts the man. He did seem to choose Jon for LC. The raven may have flown to Jon because everyone was talking about him, and the bird has been around Jon a lot since he became Mormonts right hand.

The raven may have a part of a Singer inside, the way the ravens do in the caves. But this would be only a shadow of a soul left in the bird.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What if the LCs raven has a shadow of a soul of a former older LC in him. One who was a skinchanger. Could be why the raven likes to hang out with LC all the time. Just like old times. Just a thought.