Tyryan Lannister Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 If Gendel in this story turns out to be like Grendel, there could be a dragon or wyvern in the caves that the Children are feeding. Grendel's mother turns into a type of dragon. In the movie Beowulf she looked like a cross between a dragon and a giant spider. Does anyone know of a connection between the Grendel in Beowulf and crows or ravens? In nature, ravens belong with wolves, but with so many in the caves, they look to be aligned with the Children. And Children were "aligned" with the Wolves (of Winterfell)??? Instead of Ravens>Wolves, Martin gave us Ravens>Faeries>Wolves???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Finally, there's Old Nan's statment that all crows are liars. The likelihood is that she is speaking about a man that was a NW being a liar. But, another way to look at her statement is that crows are liars because they are not but a bird, they are the manifestation of men, of sorcerers, and wargs, and crows are not all they seem in this sense.In some Native American cultures, the raven is a trickster god or trickster spirit. They are also associated with creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 "The author hasn't uploaded a copy of this talk." But the abstract is interesting, isn't it?: http://www.academia.edu/1728196/Hygelac_and_the_Happy_Bird_an_interpretation_of_Beowulfs_blithe-hearted_raven What were your thoughts on the above link? Are the ravens going to be happy with the destruction of Gendel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I read an interpretation of the raven in Beowulf that while it is black and considered evil, it had a spark of goodness in it and was trying to be good, thus when it achieves goodness it sings. Edited to add: having the raven trying to be good fits with GRRM's theme of people (or things) being neither entirely good nor evil. Is it possible that the Children were evil, but now they are trying to be good before they die out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I've had a little theory for a long time now about the LC's raven. I think that raven used to be Bloodraven's bird. Let me be clear on this though, I don't think BR is skinchanging the bird. He may from time to time take a peek through it's eyes just as I think he does with Balerion the black cat in KL, but I don't think it was BR that told Jon what to do with the fire in Mormont's solar. BR is not controlling the bird, the raven is it's own being. Depending on how old these Ravens could be, he certainly could have started the tradition. I, however, do think that Bloodraven has been skinchanging the Lord Commander's Raven. Speaking of which, do we have any idea how old ravens can grow to be in GRRM's world? 10 years? 20 years? more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Unlike the various ones from 91-97, you can go off topic if needed, it's basically that BC realized that The Crows/Ravens was probably another topic we should have included It's no biggie. I'll wait until the next editiion. It was just that in reading ToJ analysis in R+L=J, I realized something for the first time that I think is a problem for that thread. I'm not sure it would be admitted as such there, but it would be interesting getting the reaction from a broader-minded group. Like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 It's no biggie. I'll wait until the next editiion. It was just that in reading ToJ analysis in R+L=J, I realized something for the first time that I think is a problem for that thread. I'm not sure it would be admitted as such there, but it would be interesting getting the reaction from a broader-minded group. Like this. R+L=J is under consideration for a future heresy thread - not under that name of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 And back to Crows... I blush to admit forgetting to include this little but perhaps quite priceless gem in my introductory essay: Catelyn went to the Sept and lit a candle to the Father above, for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 food for thought in regards to " crow traditions " ... what is the stigma surrounding being a " crow wife" ? we are told craster was son of a crow, and that the Mance background is technically unknown... time to crack some pot, but is it possibile that our BR the LC may have left some wildling flowers sprinkled with a lil bit of dragonseed before his duties were done? also what is the king crow ( Brynden Rivers the Great Bastard Lord Commander ) to king crow ( the Mance Rayder aka Abel King Beyond the Wall ) to king crow ( Jon Snow the Bastard Lord Commander ) connection if at all? does each have his own purpose or desire, or do we believe that all of them are working towards the same endgame... edit. not suggesting cratster and br and kin but mance... his unknown lineage is leaves it open i believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Depending on how old these Ravens could be, he certainly could have started the tradition. I, however, do think that Bloodraven has been skinchanging the Lord Commander's Raven. Speaking of which, do we have any idea how old ravens can grow to be in GRRM's world? 10 years? 20 years? more? Well that's one of the curiousities, at least converning those living in the Cave of Skulls, because if those particular birds had the shadows of long dead Singers within them, just how old were they? Or were the Singers in question not shadows at all but those sleeping in the cave at the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yield. Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Depending on how old these Ravens could be, he certainly could have started the tradition. I, however, do think that Bloodraven has been skinchanging the Lord Commander's Raven. Speaking of which, do we have any idea how old ravens can grow to be in GRRM's world? 10 years? 20 years? more? While it's hard to say what Martin has in mind in terms of the age of his ravens, I dare say they are quite old. Judging by what BR says about the raven Bran tried and it having a long dead singer in it, and they measure time differently to humans I think it's a fair bet they are older than our real life ravens. Mind you ravens in captivity are said to live up to 70 yrs. Although the oldest know raven at the Tower of London was Jim Crow and he died at 44 yrs old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'm thinking the Ravens are immortal and do not die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleeve of Wizard Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 So, I'm starting to wonder if the reason that the CotF need human Greenseers to "interpret" the ways of Men ala Bloodraven and Bran is that when the Ravens could "talk" the CotF could basically "hear" everything that was being told to the Ravens to convey. Now, the messages are simply strapped to the Raven's leg eliminating the phone tap the CotF once had on the affairs of Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Mind you ravens in captivity are said to live up to 70 yrs. Wow. I'd call them "Crow Magnon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 While it's hard to say what Martin has in mind in terms of the age of his ravens, I dare say they are quite old. Judging by what BR says about the raven Bran tried and it having a long dead singer in it, and they measure time differently to humans I think it's a fair bet they are older than our real life ravens. Mind you ravens in captivity are said to live up to 70 yrs. Although the oldest know raven at the Tower of London was Jim Crow and he died at 44 yrs old.Well, Lord Commanders raven is described as old and bedraggled. I believe it is possible that bird was around at the same time as Bloodraven. Maybe even before Bloodraven, comparing to the ravens in the cave of skulls.But I do not believe BR is constantly skinchanging the bird. Other ravens speak too.To add on to an earlier post, other N.A. cultures believe the Raven (similar to Coyote) to be a trickster that has a never ending appetite.Sounds similar to Mormont's raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 While it's hard to say what Martin has in mind in terms of the age of his ravens, I dare say they are quite old. Judging by what BR says about the raven Bran tried and it having a long dead singer in it, and they measure time differently to humans I think it's a fair bet they are older than our real life ravens. Mind you ravens in captivity are said to live up to 70 yrs. Although the oldest know raven at the Tower of London was Jim Crow and he died at 44 yrs old. Wow, I did not know even our own ravens were so long lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'm thinking Mormonts Raven has somebody in it and it ain't BR. The Wall would stop him reaching from the cave. I say there is a Singer/Skinchanger in it already spending its second life.I hope it would one day allow Jon to wear him, the stories that bird might tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 So, I'm starting to wonder if the reason that the CotF need human Greenseers to "interpret" the ways of Men ala Bloodraven and Bran is that when the Ravens could "talk" the CotF could basically "hear" everything that was being told to the Ravens to convey. Now, the messages are simply strapped to the Raven's leg eliminating the phone tap the CotF once had on the affairs of Men. Interesting thought. Well, Lord Commanders raven is described as old and bedraggled. I believe it is possible that bird was around at the same time as Bloodraven. Maybe even before Bloodraven, comparing to the ravens in the cave of skulls.But I do not believe BR is constantly skinchanging the bird. Other ravens speak too.To add on to an earlier post, other N.A. cultures believe the Raven (similar to Coyote) to be a trickster that has a never ending appetite.Sounds similar to Mormont's raven. So, maybe he isn't saying "corn"? I wonder if the sound he's making is Old Tongue for something else, like carnage or something equally meaty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Nah, I think that he is just asking for corn, but I also think that he is asking for corn, not some skinchanger within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Nah, I think that he is just asking for corn, but I also think that he is asking for corn, not some skinchanger within.Agree. I also think the he is based on the raven trickster. (Not that is all there is to the bird) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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