Why are the Valyrians so fair-skinned?

[Ulthosian Stark]

Ah I see

Well, I never saw that as racist, partially because I just don't work like that as I never heard any of this before my first post, and a lot of those people ended being white-looking after cleaning up, they were slaves after all. I would have assumed the white people were just dirty, and that seemed like the case in later episodes.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

There are a few posters who have taken exception to what I said I didn't like about GRRM's non-Westerosi characterizations.

Please keep in mind that the series has a global audience and that we're all going to see things differently. My observations come from a lifetime of reading quite a bit of fantasy and science fiction. Martin's on his firmest footing when he is writing about Westeros. Essos is a mixed bag, and the cultures on the periphery? As this is a fan board for ASOIAF, I will refrain.

This isn't even some "ASOIAF is racist" rant. I think one of the settings and cultures that left me least satisfied in the universe is the Ironborn. I adore Scandinavian myth and folklore, and reading Norse historical fiction. I have more quibbles with that because of their increasing importance in the storylines of characters I care about.

Again, this is just my opinion as an individual reader who's steeped in this genre.

[ummester]

What is interesting about your comments Liz Stark is that they speak of a broader trend in Western popular culture, which is probably more based on profit than any type of inherent racism. Of course, an individuals feelings on this will be relevant to their ethnicity and what part of the world they come from - though I remember having a discussion about whether Hollywood casts in a racist way. On the face it seems that way - the majority of leading actors seem to be fairly Caucasian. But when you take the ticket/blu-ray/dvd sales into account, the films just target their audience. If Africa spent as much on movie tickets as North America, Djimon Hounsou would probably be in more films and worth more than Tom Cruise (Hounsou being the far better actor in my books, so I wouldn't have an issue with that :) ). I think Western fantasy literature caters to a similar audience as Hollywood films. Like that Exodus film that was made recently with very Caucasian looking Moses and Ramses, which Ridley Scott explained was purely about the potential commercial viability of the film - for some reason the safe money is on the Western masses paying to see Batman as Moses and commercial art is ultimately a commercial endeavor.

[Ulthosian Stark]

There are a few posters who have taken exception to what I said I didn't like about GRRM's non-Westerosi characterizations.

Please keep in mind that the series has a global audience and that we're all going to see things differently. My observations come from a lifetime of reading quite a bit of fantasy and science fiction. Martin's on his firmest footing when he is writing about Westeros. Essos is a mixed bag, and the cultures on the periphery? As this is a fan board for ASOIAF, I will refrain.

This isn't even some "ASOIAF is racist" rant. I think one of the settings and cultures that left me least satisfied in the universe is the Ironborn. I adore Scandinavian myth and folklore, and reading Norse historical fiction. I have more quibbles with that because of their increasing importance in the storylines of characters I care about.

Again, this is just my opinion as an individual reader who's steeped in this genre.

I've found there's 2 types of fans when it comes to this, like you, that aren't interested/playing dislike the mystery of Essos and want to focus on Westeros, but the other type is the type that is really interested as to exactly wtf is going on out there, the odder shit. Like the fuck is the Land of the Shrykes? Why are 5 super megaforts built circling it? Shrykes could be anything, I want to think their velociraptor-type things. Maybe a little too Malazan (I haven't even read it, just know of the race) but the voice of the Others could be a shriek and that could be essosi spelling

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

ummester & Ulthosian Stark

Thanks, guys, for understanding!

Don't get me wrong -- I'm a ASOIAF stan, and die-hard at that. No one else's universe has me as obsessed as GRRM's. I would take 20-25 eps of the show every year if possible (and different showrunners, but that's another story!)

One of the ways that I read ASOIAF & TWOIAF is with the understanding that these are medieval characters. That's why I get annoyed when people try to place modern day conceptions of nations, cultures, races & ethnicities on them. Canon is filtered through the POV characters who have had contact with people from different cultures, and we've learned most of what we know about Essos through Dany (of course, now we also have Arya and Tyrion).

I got so annoyed with media outlets who are unfamiliar with the series claiming the Mhysa scene was racist. No, it really wasn't (says the defensive Dany stan!). But I've traveled a fair bit, so I suppose some of Maester Yandel's descriptions really rubbed me the wrong way.

Going back to my critique of the drawings, it's not that they're poorly done -- TWOIAF is an amazing volume. I just wanted the "otherworldliness" of the Valyrians more in the representation, and as someone who's loved Tolkien for almost 30 years, I think I was imagining them like elves. Emilia doesn't annoy me as she does some, but she isn't quite what I imagine as Dany when I actually read the books. But then, I am a reader who imagines that Ashara Dayne was a dead ringer for Luthien, so I envy readers who haven't been tainted by Tolkien!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We learned from WOIAF that there are different races/species of people on Planetos. Valyrians are one of them. Simple.

[TheSovereignGrave]

We learned from WOIAF that there are different races/species of people on Planetos. Valyrians are one of them. Simple.

No, I'm pretty sure that Valyrians are Homo sapiens. The only visible difference between them and others are the fact that they have silver hair and purple eyes.

[ummester]

ummester & Ulthosian Stark

Thanks, guys, for understanding!

Don't get me wrong -- I'm a ASOIAF stan, and die-hard at that. No one else's universe has me as obsessed as GRRM's. I would take 20-25 eps of the show every year if possible (and different showrunners, but that's another story!)

One of the ways that I read ASOIAF & TWOIAF is with the understanding that these are medieval characters. That's why I get annoyed when people try to place modern day conceptions of nations, cultures, races & ethnicities on them. Canon is filtered through the POV characters who have had contact with people from different cultures, and we've learned most of what we know about Essos through Dany (of course, now we also have Arya and Tyrion).

I got so annoyed with media outlets who are unfamiliar with the series claiming the Mhysa scene was racist. No, it really wasn't (says the defensive Dany stan!). But I've traveled a fair bit, so I suppose some of Maester Yandel's descriptions really rubbed me the wrong way.

Going back to my critique of the drawings, it's not that they're poorly done -- TWOIAF is an amazing volume. I just wanted the "otherworldliness" of the Valyrians more in the representation, and as someone who's loved Tolkien for almost 30 years, I think I was imagining them like elves. Emilia doesn't annoy me as she does some, but she isn't quite what I imagine as Dany when I actually read the books. But then, I am a reader who imagines that Ashara Dayne was a dead ringer for Luthien, so I envy readers who haven't been tainted by Tolkien!

I have also travelled a bit, in my younger years, and had a lifelong interest in ancient humans and anthropology. I've never been a massive Tolkien fan - though I do respect the quality and influence of his works.

I've heard the TV Dany doesn't look exotic, fantastic or alien enough critique before - as if, before the show, readers had a more otherworldly view of Valyrians in their heads. Elfish, if we compare to Tolkien, or Atlantean, if we compare to Howard.

I started with the show, so, as mentioned, just thought Dany was part of another Westerosi (or Western) race of peoples, originally. Perhaps the old blood, or pure blood, or something - though a fantastic 'European' in a world that was like a fantastic medieval Earth. To further liken it to Earth, in the first Ep, the show also had the Dothraki to the East and a cold wall in the North.

Sadly, I kind of viewed Dany like her show counterpart as I read - just younger, skinnier, with more striking hair and eye contrast - but much the same, not really exotic or otherworldly. It is entirely reading the Valyrians as Eastern shepherds that threw me - my similar to Earth assessment of Planetos was confused. Then you start wondering why are the Quarthians white? And what is the history of that seedy Asshai place, where dragons seem to come from, anyways?

My gut feeling is that GRRM didn't expect the universe to become as expansive - I think there is a plot relevant aspect of Dany's ancestry waiting to be revealed but it was originally planned to be so on a smaller, more contained scale. My gut is also that Dany was an exotic, 'European-ish' girl, with a magical destiny, exiled into the more barbarous East purely because it was a simple, fantastic cliché that not only enthused GRRM as a writer but would be easy for a target audience to relate to and sympathise with.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, I'm pretty sure that Valyrians are Homo sapiens. The only visible difference between them and others are the fact that they have silver hair and purple eyes.

NO it specifically says that the Ibbeneese and the Valyrians are different from other races of humans. The Ibbeneese cannot even reproduce with other humans.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think Suzanna is trying to say that Valyrians are as human as some random Andal, they are just different in a visible way. I don't think it's too hard to accept, we also have Ibbenese, Sothoryi, Qaathi and Lengii (not counting Thousand Islanders and Toad Islanders, as they are halflings of humans and deep ones and I don't think the others are) in "different" human category, I think Valyrians are belong this category.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think Suzanna is trying to say that Valyrians are as human as some random Andal, they are just different in a visible way. I don't think it's too hard to accept, we also have Ibbenese, Sothoryi, Qaathi and Lengii (not counting Thousand Islanders and Toad Islanders, as they are halflings of humans and deep ones and I don't think the others are) in "different" human category, I think Valyrians are belong this category.

Yeah, thanks.

Also there are the COTF and the giants. Both are considered part-human at least. But not exactly the same as ordinary Westerosi. Definitely not 'regular' humans whom other humans could breed with.

[TheSovereignGrave]

NO it specifically says that the Ibbeneese and the Valyrians are different from other races of humans. The Ibbeneese cannot even reproduce with other humans.

It specifically says the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are different from other races of men that we can consider them a separate species, but the only difference between a Valyrian and an Andal or Rhoynar is the colour of their skin, hair, and eyes. The Lengii are just as different if you ask me; after all, it's not unheard of for a regular Lengii to be taller than Gregor Clegane. But the Lengii aren't a different species.

Are the Valyrians a different race? Of course; I'm not disputing that in the slightest. But they're not a different species like the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are (assuming what we're told of them are actually true).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It specifically says the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are different from other races of men that we can consider them a separate species, but the only difference between a Valyrian and an Andal or Rhoynar is the colour of their skin, hair, and eyes. The Lengii are just as different if you ask me; after all, it's not unheard of for a regular Lengii to be taller than Gregor Clegane. But the Lengii aren't a different species.

Are the Valyrians a different race? Of course; I'm not disputing that in the slightest. But they're not a different species like the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are (assuming what we're told of them are actually true).

IDk, my take was that it was hinting that Valyrians were different. "Valyrians alone could tame and subdue dragons." To me that suggests there is something in their blood (or whatever) that makes them different from other races. plus the SSM "Valyrians can tolerate a bit more heat than ordinary people."

I think it's clear he means that they are not 'ordinary' people.

Sure they can still breed with humans, but they are not the same.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 thing that comes to mind about the valyrians being fair skinned is that in SE Asia it was actually considered better to have lighter skin, because if you have darker skin it is a mark of working in the fields under the sun, so you are considered lower class. Perhaps over time the Valyrians produced something similar, those who were rich dragon riders did not have to bake in the sun and those who did not remained shepherds who's skin got darker in the sun. Over thousands of years the inbreeding among paler people may have accentuated the trait.

[ummester]

1 thing that comes to mind about the valyrians being fair skinned is that in SE Asia it was actually considered better to have lighter skin, because if you have darker skin it is a mark of working in the fields under the sun, so you are considered lower class. Perhaps over time the Valyrians produced something similar, those who were rich dragon riders did not have to bake in the sun and those who did not remained shepherds who's skin got darker in the sun. Over thousands of years the inbreeding among paler people may have accentuated the trait.

So as shepherds, the Valyrian's just looked like Dothraki, or anyone else in that corner of Planetos and their silver hair and purple eyes was just inbred, over time, after they bonded with dragons?

That makes sense, I guess.

[ummester]

IDk, my take was that it was hinting that Valyrians were different. "Valyrians alone could tame and subdue dragons." To me that suggests there is something in their blood (or whatever) that makes them different from other races. plus the SSM "Valyrians can tolerate a bit more heat than ordinary people."

I think it's clear he means that they are not 'ordinary' people.

Sure they can still breed with humans, but they are not the same.

This shows the key element missing from the description of Valyrians we have been supplied with so far.

Was there anything special about Valyrians before they found the remaining dragons in the 14 Flames?

If there was, then (as shepherds) their features seem very geographically out of place and one can assume there is probably an ancient magical reason for them being different.

If there wasn't, then one can assume that their features developed with dragon bonding/magic and was re-enforced by inbreeding.

[Justin Amey]

Ya must not heard me the first time. I'll put it in a bigger font for ya.

Magic!!!!!

[ummester]

Ya must not heard me the first time. I'll put it in a bigger font for ya.

Magic!!!!!

Yes but pre or post dragon magic?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

It specifically says the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are different from other races of men that we can consider them a separate species, but the only difference between a Valyrian and an Andal or Rhoynar is the colour of their skin, hair, and eyes. The Lengii are just as different if you ask me; after all, it's not unheard of for a regular Lengii to be taller than Gregor Clegane. But the Lengii aren't a different species.

Are the Valyrians a different race? Of course; I'm not disputing that in the slightest. But they're not a different species like the Ibbenese and Brindlemen are (assuming what we're told of them are actually true).

Yeah, the Brindled Men and Ibbenese are certainly sub-species of humans.

Valyrians are different than other humans, just as Lengii and Qaathi imo.

Lengii can see better and further then any other people on earth. Qartheen are still milk pale even though they have been living in a desert for centuries. Valyrians are the only people with purple eyes, and they also have silver hair. Both Lengii and Valyrians are extremely beautiful.

[Justin Amey]

Yes but pre or post dragon magic?

:dunno: :leaving: :read: :idea:

They always had magic in their blood. They use that inner blood magic to control Dragons, That is why the Targs want to keep their bloodline as pure as possible.