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Iron Hawk

I don't like the Starks.

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The Starks are and have always been isolated. Isolated grographically but also isolated from the game. I think they are the most unique house in sense of their identity and how they see the world in all of Westeros, with the exception of the Martells in Dorne.


Their actions and thought processes are at odds to everyone else, particularly in KL, because of this.


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The Starks are and have always been isolated. Isolated grographically but also isolated from the game. I think they are the most unique house in sense of their identity and how they see the world in all of Westeros, with the exception of the Martells in Dorne.

Their actions and thought processes are at odds to everyone else, particularly in KL, because of this.

I agree -- that's exactly why GRRM chose them to be the first House presented to the reader. I don't share the OP's thoughts of disliking the Starks; Sansa grew out of her dreams to a harsh world throughout books 2 and 3, and you'll find out she's got a real quick mind by the time of AFfC. People say she's gonna be a tough player of the Game, and I don't doubt it. I like her now, as I hadn't throughout the first two novels.

Robb -- a kid that was named King because of Joffrey's bad kingship, which was a result of his bad raising by Cersei, which was a result of her lust for power, which ultimately failed once Joffrey used his assholeness she developed in him to behead Ned. The Northern lords were all largely loyal to the Starks at that point -- even the Boltons -- and Robb didn't say "hey, I could be a king and I'll be a good one", people just bestowed him a title he couldn't give away without seeming weak. He wanted to avenge his father whom he loved. His bad decisions were a consequence -- alas, he was just a boy!

Catelyn -- selfish? I see a mother caring about her children more than about herself even. She'd lost everything. She's the most tragic character in the series, waaay more so than any other. I feel her.

Ned -- he is presented to the reader as the protagonist in A Game of Thrones. Nothing else. Unadvised (or just unspoiled) readers would think he would be the hero or at least the sidekick of the big hero in the series. His death was the one to trigger all the oncoming wars -- not Robert's, Jon Arryn's or even Aerys' long before the start of AGoT. His death triggered grief in the Stark girls and Catelyn, anger in Robb, abandon to Bran, feeling of oportunity in Stannis, Cersei and Balon, pure lust and dumb justice (?) in Renly and Mace Tyrell, and much of the events of late AGoT and ACoK.

So yeah, I think of Ned as human plot-fodder, but I wouldn't call him weak as a person. Everyone had affection or at least respect for him -- perhaps except Jaime Lannister. Tyrion never ponders about Lord Eddard, except some quick passages, but he never resents him, disrespects him, or blames him for his own death. Everybody loves Ned :D

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Well you won't like many mothers if you take "caring more about your children than about others' children" as an unforgivable thing.



And yes, Joffrey was also just a kid, but he, Robb and Sansa are all in an age where you can quite accurately predict what kind of adults they'll become -- just their grown selves, with a little less mistakes in mind. You could say that an older Robb Stark wouldn't have offended Walder Frey like that, or that an older Sansa Stark would have told the truth about Joffrey to Queen Cersei, but you can't say an older Joffrey would be gentle, diplomatic, or reasonable. In Tyrion's words, he's "not Robert the Second [but] Aerys the Third", and put that on Cersei's. Catelyn Tully wasn't a vile person like that and also didn't raise the Young Wolf with such pampering. An older Robb would be Eddard 2.0 -- and an attitude like Eddard's, like you Ned or not, would have won that war.


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So its "weak" to do the honorable thing....Yes cause putting the well being of others before yourself is weak.You need to read the book Robb did not marry a random girl for no reason.He married her cause he took her virginity (maidenhead) and by the Old Ways your supposed to marry the girl.He put the girls honor above his own honor and it cost him dearly.Saying Sansa is selfish..shes a freaking teenage girl who wants to visit Kings Landing and see the world.Winterfell is not an exciting place they don't even have any singer's there (a singer once stayed for a short while and when he left Sansa begged her father to make him stay)The Starks are not an easy house to love as they hold everyone accountable for there actions.Like they say "A man who passes the sentence should swing the sword"


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Dude Robb slept with her after he had just gotten a letter that his best friend Theon just killed and burned two of his brothers.Arya is presumed dead Sansa is a hostage and Jon is at the wall.You cant really blame him for finding comfort in a woman.Also I am not mad its just the show does a terrible job with characters

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I'm getting the feeling that I have angered you. I didn't mean to come here sounding like a prick; I just wanted to share my opinion and see what others thought.

.

It sure seems like that coming here and sounding like a prick was your exact intentions.

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Theres also the fact that the (Westerlings w/e that sucky family name is)Drugged Robb.He was injured while taking the keep and was nursed back to health (and drugged so he would sleep with her)by her family.They also gave her a potion to "help" her get pregnant but it was in fact birth control.

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I came here to, like I already said, share an opinion which I thought was not with the majority, to see what conversation would start. I have not read any of the books; I am new to this forum and I realize this is not the proper place to post this topic.

In the Season Three forums there are subsections for each episode; there is no section for all of Season three in total unless I am not seeing it.

I don't want any hostility. I realize I am missing a lot of the story, but I posted an opinion based on what story I was given.

If you don't like my opinion, that is fine; I'm not trying to persuade others to think like me. I want them to have their own opinion, but I assure you, I did not attend to come across as a prick.

You don't start a conversation of disliking a character with "she's a woman" and expect not to come across as an asshole. You want to stir shit up? Fine. Just own up to it.

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In the book he has a choice.To protect his honor and marry a frey or to protect the honor of the girl and marry her.He choose the girls honor over his own

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I originally posted this as a spoiler in the A Game of Thrones section. I soon wanted to see what others had to say, and I believe I will get more attention here. Please, leave your thoughts.

Here is the context that led me to my rant which took an hour to type: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105225-personal-attachments/

===================

I thought Ned was weak. He was too caught up in his "honour" that he ended up sticking his own head up his arse. He was unfaithful to Catelyn when he went off and returned with Jon, and on top of that he never told Jon about his mother. Then he went off to King's Landing and started snooping around. Once he found out the Lannister's little secret he "spared" Cersei, by giving her an opportunity to run. He should have had her seized on the spot. Now on to his weakness, he gave in. He confessed to his "treason." He should have stayed strong. He could have at least used his final words to scream something along the lines of "Joffrey is Jaime's bastard son," but he didn't. Other than telling Stannis, he let it die with him. He let all that research go to waste, he let all of Jon Arryn's research go to waste. I wasn't happy he died; it just didn't phase me. He was more honourable than most of the characters, but as Bronn once said- ("You don't fight with honour"), "No, but he did."

Catelyn, where do I begin? First she's a woman. First, let's start with the biggie, she betrayed her son Robb. Why is this bad? Well for one, she betrayed him. Jaime was a valuable prisoner and she gave him away behind Robb's back. She cared more about her own family than the family of everyone else. Catelyn is not the only person with a family. Lot's of people wanted their family safe, but she doesn't care. She only cares about herself and her own family. She also despised Jon Snow. What did the poor bastard ever do to her? Ned never even told Jon about his mother; the only "mother" Jon ever knew was Catelyn, and she hated him. Yes tis a reminder about what Honourable Ned did, but is ned's "honour" Jon's fault? Is it Jon Snow's fault that Ned got a little lonely when he was away from Catelyn Stark?

Robb. The King of the North. Pfff. Do you remember the conversation Catelyn had with Walder Frey? Walder told Catelyn that the Starks always looked down upon the Freys and spit on them. Frey was a poor old man. He was old, poor, ugly, and weak. He had one last opportunity to do something for the good of his name. All he wanted was for Robb to marry a daughter so that he could pass down something good. Even if his name was lost and forgotten, his blood would live on; Frey didn't care about his name, no, Frey cared about what was really him- blood. Blood has more power than name, but no one understands that. Blood is your life, a name is just something that was thrown on someone a long time ago and has passed down. You can give your name away and get a new one; you can't do that with your blood. Frey understood that. He understood his daughter's children, his grandchildren, wouldn't be Frey's at name, they would be Stark, the same name that has always pissed on him, but they would be Frey by blood. You know what Robb thought? Screw that. Robb married a girl he knew for what, a few days? I suppose it's better than marrying someone you've never met, but still- he broke his vow. I forgot the other man's name, but he had to Marry a Frey in place of Robb's wrongdoings.

Sansa. To start, Sansa's a woman. To start, Sansa is selfish. Do you remember the first episode? Where she begged her mother to make daddy take the job? She just cares about herself. What was it she said? "Please please make dad say yes; it's the only thing I ever wanted!" "Only?" That's the "only" thing you've ever wanted? The only thing I've ever wanted was a trillion dollars. The only thing I've ever wanted was to be leader of earth. The only thing I've ever wanted is for Catherine Middleton to want me. Wedding the Prince of Westoros is a bloody big thing to be the "only" thing. If this is the "only" thing she wants, I'd hate to see her Christmas list. What's next? How about the King's Road. How about how she showed her pretty little arse to the king. She knew what the truth was, but she let that only thing she wanted get in the way. An innocent wolf died; an innocent baker's boy died, and she still wanted that only thing.

Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa. The Stark's are bad and selfish people. As mentioned earlier, I am indifferent about Bran, Rickon, and Arya.

I don't like the Starks.

The Cassel's were better people.

Would anyone like to challenge anything I said? I'm open to- and would like to hear- an opposing opinion.

Ned: Their are a good amount of people on this forum who believe that Ned don't in fact cheat on Cat. He was living up to a promise kept to a dying loved one. If the information about Jon's parentage got out before the situation was right it would be a catastrophe. It would a catastrophe for Jon because that's not just some bomb you drop a kid and two because who knows how king bob would react if found out Rhaegar had a son. On to Kings Landing, if the king wants you for a positon you don't really have the power to refuse. Plus if you receive a letter from your sister in-law saying the guy who fostered you and was married to her died under strange circumstances of course you would want to check it out. I would too, any one did. He was trying to stop war from happening. He was lied to that is not his fault. He was trying to transtition power away from Cersie and her kids. Ned has many faults but "weakness" is not one. He is actually one of the wrongest characters in the books. Everything you listed from his time in KL comes from hindsight.

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