True Detective IX - Cohle Logic

[Shryke]

He has now. He didn't before. It Pizzolatto had said he'd never read Ligotti's book I'd have been perfectly willing to believe him. But he's apparently now said that he deliberately wrote some of the dialogue close to phrases from the book as a sort of easter egg for Ligotti fans. And the guy is never mentioned once on the dvd special features? That seems like the behaviour of somebody who thinks he's got something to hide.

WTF does he have to hide? Why the fuck would you hide this?

This whole argument is fucking nonsense.

[Mark Antony]

Indulged myself with season 1 blu ray. Shit looks prime on HD :drool:

[OnionAhaiReborn]

This plagiarism thing reminds me of the controversy over Bob Dylan's Modern Times. He very blatantly took ideas and lyrics from old blues and folk songs and took lyrics from Ovid. But it wasn't like he was trying to put one over on anyone, with songs like "The Levee's Gonna Break" which had some of the exact lyrics of a song made very famous by Led Zeppelin.

I found it slightly unsettling at first, but it ultimately seems to me that it was done as an artistic choice, and not as an actual attempt to steal someone's work and pass it off as his own. There's an important distinction there, and I think Pizzolatto is on the right side of it too.

[john]

WTF does he have to hide? Why the fuck would you hide this?

Plagiarism. You sure you're following this all right? Maybe give it another read.

[kairparavel]

Was True Detective a term paper? No.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/08/06/true_detective_plagiarized_no_nic_pizzolatto_did_not_plagiarize_thomas_ligotti.html

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Was True Detective a term paper? No.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/08/06/true_detective_plagiarized_no_nic_pizzolatto_did_not_plagiarize_thomas_ligotti.html

I have to agree with that article as summing up my position as well.

I did find this quote (unintentionally) humorous:

"As was widely noted when it aired, the show’s finale featured two lines that were taken from comic books: Rust’s kiss-off “L’chaim fatass” comes from a Daredevil installment, and his final speech, about how the stars prove that “the light’s winning,” is lifted from an obscure comic by Watchmen author Alan Moore. "

The "obscure" comic by Watchmen author Alan Moore that the quote is lifted from is, of course, Watchmen. I can't figure out if the author is being cute, or just stupid.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kair,

I saw that article. Makes sense to me too. True Detective isn't a scholarly article, it's a work of art. Artist's borrow from each other all the time. Further, the sharing is between different media forms, novel (Liggoti) and the Television show True Detective. I just don't see how that could be plagarism.

[Kalbear]

Artists often borrow, but they usually are significantly more open and thankful from whom they borrow.

[john]

The "obscure" comic by Watchmen author Alan Moore that the quote is lifted from is, of course, Watchmen. I can't figure out if the author is being cute, or just stupid.

It's not. The Alan Moore comic is Top Ten. A lot more obscure than Watchmen.

Kair,

I saw that article. Makes sense to me too. True Detective isn't a scholarly article, it's a work of art. Artist's borrow from each other all the time. Further, the sharing is between different media forms, novel (Liggoti) and the Television show True Detective. I just don't see how that could be plagarism.

Although Ligotti is a fiction writer, the work in question is his non-fiction treatise that outlines his worldview, not a novel. And the argument isn't that they shared some ideas, it's that earlier drafts of TD repeated lines verbatim with no acknowledgement.

Artists often borrow, but they usually are significantly more open and thankful from whom they borrow.

This. I don't think Pizzolatto's a plagiarist either but the way he dealt with Ligotti as an influence was lame.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

It's not. The Alan Moore comic is Top Ten. A lot more obscure than Watchmen.

... You're right. :bang:

[Shryke]

Plagiarism. You sure you're following this all right? Maybe give it another read.

How is it plagiarism and why would he need to hide it anyway? What's gonna happen if he doesn't? (fyi, the answer is nothing)

Your statement makes no sense because he's got nothing to hide and no reason to hide this. There's no negative consequences to avoid here.

And even if we assume it is plagiarism, why does it matter? Why should I care?

You seem awfully concerned about something utterly irrelevant. And still complaining even though he's said "Yes, it was an influence".

[john]

... You're right. :bang:

I mean, I only knew from reading that blog post. It's a good line though, it's kind of impressive how Moore just threw it in in one of his ongoing indie books.

You seem awfully concerned about something utterly irrelevant. And still complaining even though he's said "Yes, it was an influence".

I do? You're the one who said my "argument" was "fucking nonsense." You seem to be a lot more worked up about it than me.

I have no idea why Pizzolatto would feel he had to hide something. All I said was that his behaviour suggests that he does.

[polishgenius]

I mean, I only knew from reading that blog post. It's a good line though, it's kind of impressive how Moore just threw it in in one of his ongoing indie books.

That sort of thing is the reason Alan Moore is a comic-book genius. He just casually writes things that most writers can only dream about.

[Shryke]

I do? You're the one who said my "argument" was "fucking nonsense." You seem to be a lot more worked up about it than me.

I have no idea why Pizzolatto would feel he had to hide something. All I said was that his behaviour suggests that he does.

Right, but your argument that he is hiding something is fucking nonsense. You can't even come up with a reason why he would.

[Kalbear]

Well, apparently Ligotti and HBO reached an agreement where Ligotti doesn't talk about things and HBO expresses no fault in exchange for mad money. So...yeah.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Right, but your argument that he is hiding something is fucking nonsense. You can't even come up with a reason why he would.

In some ways, the question of "why" is irrelevant. The argument for plagiarism slash borrowing without attribution has been made on the text. You either find it convincing or you don't. If you do, then asking why he would do such a thing is irrelevant. He did it, and his internal motivations are kind of beside the point. If you don't, you don't. But if you don't, starting with the "why" and trying to reason your way backwards from that is putting the cart before the horse. If it's true, it's true regardless of whether one can find a compelling rationale for it.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Well, apparently Ligotti and HBO reached an agreement where Ligotti doesn't talk about things and HBO expresses no fault in exchange for mad money. So...yeah.

Really? I can't find anything online about HBO and Ligotti reaching a settlement on this issue. And I did put in the effort of Googling "Ligotti" "HBO" and "settlement."

[Relic]

I have a feeling that plagiarism is only accepted as long as it's well done. Had TD sucked and been widely hated on we'd rip this story to shreds with our scorn. However, that said, no Shit some of it comes off as plagiarism. There is nothing new being presented in TD, it's just a good take on themes far older than any of us.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I have a feeling that plagiarism is only accepted as long as it's well done. Had TD sucked and been widely hated on we'd rip this story to shreds with our scorn. However, that said, no Shit some of it comes off as plagiarism. There is nothing new being presented in TD, it's just a good take on themes far older than any of us.

Success has many fathers and failure is an orphan!

[john]

Right, but your argument that he is hiding something is fucking nonsense. You can't even come up with a reason why he would.

I'm not making an argument. I'm pointing out that not properly acknowledging a major influence is shady.

I'm not sure why I'd need to identify what he hoped to hide or why he would need to hide it in order to have that opinion.