EW Reveals 7 Season Plan

[Sun]

I'm actually having a hard time imaging this staff of mediocre writers pulling that all off (plus other character plot threads) and doing a decent job of it in about 20 episodes. Even without expanding the scope to the Martells and Blackfyres.

No one is asking you to like it, just accept it. HBO will resolve the show storylines, regardless of the status of the book series.

[Cyvasse Khal]

I also find it strange that people think the writers attached to this show are in some way inferior or terrible. D&D have been super fans of the books since not that long after the first book was released so they know the material inside out, to make up for their previous lack of experience in television writing they have assembled a pretty good team as well as GRRM himself to adapt these books pretty damn excellently. So if they do have to finish it before GRRM does, I don't think they will balls it up, it would just be a shame that GRRM couldn't get them out in time.

[Khal-a-bunga]

You don't create one of the best shows on television with bad writing. It just doesn't happen, because writing is the corner stone of all narrative visual media. Whether or not some here would agree that this is one of the best shows on television is kind of irrelevant, to be honest, if only because of the obsessive nature of some of the posters here as it concerns strict fidelity to the source material. The critical recognition, the awards (both nominated and received), and the massive popularity and general acclaim (which, in and of itself, is most certainly not indicative of quality, but applies here due to the two aforementioned elements) speak for themselves.

The writers aren't perfect, but neither is Martin or the book series. Nothing is really perfect, or able to be, in an objective sense. For myself, it's hard to imagine something being subjectively perfect, even.

That said, I still want George to finish his series first, even though the chances of that happening are basically nil at this point. I just kind of feel bad for him, even though he's in this situation through no one's fault but his own. By the end of the fifth season, they'll be into early The Winds of Winter material with the battle of Meereen (because it's happening; it was the ending ADwD should have had, and there's no way they'll schedule a major battle sequence like that in the early part of a season, for both narrative and logistical reasons), and who knows if that book will even have been released by that point?

[oierem]

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east... when the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind... like leaves... that's when Martin will finish the saga.

It is known.

[Werthead]

D&D have been super fans of the books since not that long after the first book was released

They had never read the books before receiving them through the post in late 2005/very early 2006. In fact, I think the lack of a real 'superfan' involved in a writing or advisory capacity has probably resulted in them severely underestimating the value of some characters/storylines/moments (the backstory mysteries, for example, are a major feature of the novels and absent altogether in the TV show). The LotR movies had Philippa Boyens, who had read the book on a near-annual basis since being a teenager, knew the fanbase and discussions and knew what worked, whilst also being ruthless enough to do the cutting required to get the story on-screen. It's a shame that GoT doesn't quite have someone in the same capacity: D&D and Cogman are fans, but seem to have become fans for the purpose of doing the TV adaptation, which is rather different.

Of course, they do have GRRM on tap instead.

[Rashtibram]

You don't create one of the best shows on television with bad writing. It just doesn't happen, because writing is the corner stone of all narrative visual media. Whether or not some here would agree that this is one of the best shows on television is kind of irrelevant, to be honest, if only because of the obsessive nature of some of the posters here as it concerns strict fidelity to the source material. The critical recognition, the awards (both nominated and received), and the massive popularity and general acclaim (which, in and of itself, is most certainly not indicative of quality, but applies here due to the two aforementioned elements) speak for themselves.

The writers aren't perfect, but neither is Martin or the book series. Nothing is really perfect, or able to be, in an objective sense. For myself, it's hard to imagine something being subjectively perfect, even.

Like. This is pretty much exactly how I feel. One gets the sense here that people are basing their opinions of the writing solely off of how faithful it is to the books.

[protar]

Why does everyone have this strange idea that the writers are bad, and won't be able to create good scenes based on outlines? As I think King Tommen pointed out, they've been told all the major plot points by GRRM, all the twists and all the resolutions, and have all the means to construct two seasons of television based on them. I seem to be of the minority opinion that the writing suffered more when the series was copied (virtually) word-for-word from the books in season 1, than when they created their own material.

In any case, however, whether or not you think they'd be good at it doesn't affect the probability that it's going to happen. D&D have known about the ending for years now, and just recently sat down with Martin to discuss all the finer points and character resolutions. This is one of the most internationally popular HBO shows of all time, and they're not going to cut it short just because they're not working with source material anymore; the suggestion is frankly ludicrous.

Well they've already given us plenty of deviations from which we can ascertain whether their writing is actually any good without Martin's guiding hand. And a lot of people don't think the writing of those scenes is very good (and not just because they weren't faithful to the books). Hopefully the sheer epicosity of the outlined events will offset any drop in quality.

[Calibandar]

You don't think that after living and breathing this series for 20+ years, that George doesn't have the major character paths pretty much set for the end? He doesn't know exactly how he's going to construct the chapters or put together the dialogue, but the structure and outline? That's got to be pretty much fleshed out by this point.

This is all stuff D&D know already. He told them the ending years ago and last year they asked him to tell them exactly what happens to all the major characters as well as who of the minor characters play a major role in the endgame, which he obliged. They sat down with him for a full week. What do you think they did, shot the shit?

Exactly this. They know where it is heading for all the major characters and will direct their own series knowing that information.

They will certainly not forego on having their own show have a proper ending, that would be a killer to the tv show and their own masterpiece.

[Rashtibram]

Well they've already given us plenty of deviations from which we can ascertain whether their writing is actually any good without Martin's guiding hand. And a lot of people don't think the writing of those scenes is very good (and not just because they weren't faithful to the books). Hopefully the sheer epicosity of the outlined events will offset any drop in quality.

Well, I suppose it's all subjective opinion, and I can't fault you for that. However, I've never heard anybody outside this site (or similar book-oriented websites) complain about the writing, and I think the general acclaim for the series, among casual fans and professional critics alike, would tend to suggest otherwise; most people I know who haven't read the books feel that the writing has steadily improved with each season.

[protar]

Well, I suppose it's all subjective opinion, and I can't fault you for that. However, I've never heard anybody outside this site (or similar book-oriented websites) complain about the writing, and I think the general acclaim for the series, among casual fans and professional critics alike, would tend to suggest otherwise; most people I know who haven't read the books feel that the writing has steadily improved with each season.

Well I think it's certainly possible that people on this site having read the books makes them more likely to criticise the writing. Even when we don't mind the changed events, I think it's almost impossible to not compare the writing quality and sheer enjoyability. I'd say even the people who are fine with the show are comparing it to the books - they've just come to a separate conclusion which believes the show is fine. I think that difference between criticising the show purely because the events are different, and criticising the show because the writing isn't as good as the books is very important. I criticise the show on both levels however I believe only the latter has any bearing on the show's quality to a wider audience.

[Fez]

Why does everyone have this strange idea that the writers are bad, and won't be able to create good scenes based on outlines? As I think King Tommen pointed out, they've been told all the major plot points by GRRM, all the twists and all the resolutions, and have all the means to construct two seasons of television based on them. I seem to be of the minority opinion that the writing suffered more when the series was copied (virtually) word-for-word from the books in season 1, than when they created their own material.

Agreed. I think the seasons have gotten progressively better, and they've also progressively deviated more and more from the books. The books (at least the first three) are wonderful, but TV's a different medium and slavish devotion will get the show no where. And many of the completely made-up scenes (Arya/Twyin, Bronn/Hound, Robert/Cersei, etc.) have been among the best in the show. The writers aren't perfect, but they are very good.

They had never read the books before receiving them through the post in late 2005/very early 2006. In fact, I think the lack of a real 'superfan' involved in a writing or advisory capacity has probably resulted in them severely underestimating the value of some characters/storylines/moments (the backstory mysteries, for example, are a major feature of the novels and absent altogether in the TV show). The LotR movies had Philippa Boyens, who had read the book on a near-annual basis since being a teenager, knew the fanbase and discussions and knew what worked, whilst also being ruthless enough to do the cutting required to get the story on-screen. It's a shame that GoT doesn't quite have someone in the same capacity: D&D and Cogman are fans, but seem to have become fans for the purpose of doing the TV adaptation, which is rather different.

Of course, they do have GRRM on tap instead.

That's true of D&D, but I've always gotten the impression that Cogman is a superfan. He was originally brought in just to help keep track of everything in the world and it was only due to some unlikely chain of events* that he ended up as one of the writers in addition to that. Maybe he only become a superfan after being brought in, but I think D&D would've looked for someone who already knew everything there was to know to fill a position like that.

*He's mentioned it in interviews. It was something like at a party Cogman's wife had mentioned offhand to Benioff's wife that Cogman liked writing short stories in his spare time; Benoiff's wife mentioned it to Benoiff; D&D, realizing they were overclocked trying to write everything themselves decided to test Cogman by telling him to write an episode of the show as a "writing challenge;" Cogman did so, assuming D&D already had their own script written; D&D really liked the script and told him "Congratulations, you're now a writer on the show."

[Winnief]

Well they've already given us plenty of deviations from which we can ascertain whether their writing is actually any good without Martin's guiding hand. And a lot of people don't think the writing of those scenes is very good (and not just because they weren't faithful to the books). Hopefully the sheer epicosity of the outlined events will offset any drop in quality.

I admit some deviations, have been for the worse, (aka Talisa) but I would argue that other deviations were actually quite brilliant like Arya/Twyin scenes, the way they expanded Margaery's character, Olenna/Tywin, the way they handled Theon Greyjoy.

You don't create one of the best shows on television with bad writing. It just doesn't happen, because writing is the corner stone of all narrative visual media. Whether or not some here would agree that this is one of the best shows on television is kind of irrelevant, to be honest, if only because of the obsessive nature of some of the posters here as it concerns strict fidelity to the source material. The critical recognition, the awards (both nominated and received), and the massive popularity and general acclaim (which, in and of itself, is most certainly not indicative of quality, but applies here due to the two aforementioned elements) speak for themselves.

The writers aren't perfect, but neither is Martin or the book series. Nothing is really perfect, or able to be, in an objective sense. For myself, it's hard to imagine something being subjectively perfect, even.

:agree:

I feel the writers can do the events justice...though, of course, the more source material they have to work with, (be it rough drafts and specific chapters,) the better.

[Lord Varys]

I'm inclined to believe that the characters at the end of the TV series won't have much to do with the characters from the book series. All the characters, not just some of them. I don't think many of us believe that GRRM will need only two novels to finish the series. It will at least need three, I think, and that most certainly means that TV show will cut not only AFfC/ADwD to pieces, but TWoW, ADoS, and any additional novel(s) as well. Especially since they won't have anything to adapt, at least nothing from the concluding novels.

Does anyone think the Aegon plot will stay in the show, by the way? I'd cut it, if I wanted to cover the whole book series in fashion in 7-8 seasons. Replace Aegon's invasion with Dany's, and get on with the Targaryen restoration thing.

But if Aegon is cut, the whole war in Westeros upon Dany's return will either not happening or happening in a way that has nothing to do with the books. If Jaime, Cersei, Margaery, Mace, Olenna, and others are killed by/in the wake of events caused by Aegon's forces, if Aegon personally executes Tommen and Myrcella, those things won't happen in the TV shows. What if Aegon's forces kill Stannis? What if Sansa is married to King Aegon VI?

The 'broad strokes of every (important) character' means nothing if some of the important characters won't even be introduced.

[Rashtibram]

Agreed. I think the seasons have gotten progressively better, and they've also progressively deviated more and more from the books. The books (at least the first three) are wonderful, but TV's a different medium and slavish devotion will get the show no where. And many of the completely made-up scenes (Arya/Twyin, Bronn/Hound, Robert/Cersei, etc.) have been among the best in the show. The writers aren't perfect, but they are very good.

Thank you.

Well I think it's certainly possible that people on this site having read the books makes them more likely to criticise the writing. Even when we don't mind the changed events, I think it's almost impossible to not compare the writing quality and sheer enjoyability. I'd say even the people who are fine with the show are comparing it to the books - they've just come to a separate conclusion which believes the show is fine. I think that difference between criticising the show purely because the events are different, and criticising the show because the writing isn't as good as the books is very important. I criticise the show on both levels however I believe only the latter has any bearing on the show's quality to a wider audience.

Of course I agree that the books are better than the show. I don't think anybody here is arguing that. But the show is not in any way bad, nor is it worthy of the kind of criticism and outright dismissal it receives from some posters here; if you honestly thought that the show was going to be every bit as good, complex, and epic as ASOIAF, you were deluding yourself, as that is really never the case when it comes to book-to-screen adaptations. Personally, I find the writing to be very good, bordering on excellent: added scenes like Robert/Cersei, Joffrey/Margaery, Arya/Tywin, Varys/Littlefinger etc. have been some of the best the show has made, and have often come out better than anything they've directly transcribed from pages in the book. The point is that we should be judging the show (and the writing) by its own merits, not just dismissing it on the grounds that it isn't quite as good as the source material it's based on.

[protar]

Thank you.

Of course I agree that the books are better than the show. I don't think anybody here is arguing that. But the show is not in any way bad, nor is it worthy of the kind of criticism and outright dismissal it receives from some posters here; if you honestly thought that the show was going to be every bit as good, complex, and epic as ASOIAF, you were deluding yourself, as that is really never the case when it comes to book-to-screen adaptations. Personally, I find the writing to be very good, bordering on excellent: added scenes like Robert/Cersei, Joffrey/Margaery, Arya/Tywin, Varys/Littlefinger etc. have been some of the best the show has made, and have often come out better than anything they've directly transcribed from pages in the book. The point is that we should be judging the show (and the writing) by its own merits, not just dismissing it on the grounds that it isn't quite as good as the source material it's based on.

Obviously I'm not expecting quite the level of complexity in the show, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want the writing to be a bit better than it is currently. It's already very good but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. And often that improvement could have been found by sticking that much closer to the books in my opinion.

[King Tommen]

Well I think it's certainly possible that people on this site having read the books makes them more likely to criticise the writing. Even when we don't mind the changed events, I think it's almost impossible to not compare the writing quality and sheer enjoyability. I'd say even the people who are fine with the show are comparing it to the books - they've just come to a separate conclusion which believes the show is fine. I think that difference between criticising the show purely because the events are different, and criticising the show because the writing isn't as good as the books is very important. I criticise the show on both levels however I believe only the latter has any bearing on the show's quality to a wider audience.

I don't think anyone should be making a comparison between the writing that occurs in a series of 1000 page novels and the writing on a television series. It's two different mediums. And if you put the writing up against something in a novelistic structure against a TV script, the novel's going to win every time, I don't think that's up for debate.

It's more informative to compare the writing on the show to the writing on other television shows. And while the source material provides the show writers with some great stuff to work with, the adaptation also puts roadblocks up that other shows do not need to overcome. The multiple POV structure would never be suggested when attempting to put a television show on the air but GoT needs to incorporate that into their scripts which doesn't allow them to give you many quiet character moments and flashbacks the way other shows are allowed because they need to jet off to the next location to cover that character's story.

I think the acid test here is evaluating the episode scripts that GRRM has written against the other episodes on the show. I like his episodes a lot but are they unequivocally head and shoulders above the writing in the other episodes in the series? Is that 1 episode the only "true" ASOIAF adaptation of the season or do they all have more or less the same look and tone? This is the author of the entire series, who knows these characters and story the best and who has a history in television to boot. And while I look forward to his episodes, I don't feel like there's this evolutionary jump in quality when comparing his to the ones done by D&D/Cogman. So we aren't dealing with hacks here, and I think it's very unfair to keep referring to them this way.

[Rashtibram]

Obviously I'm not expecting quite the level of complexity in the show, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want the writing to be a bit better than it is currently. It's already very good but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. And often that improvement could have been found by sticking that much closer to the books in my opinion.

Of course there's always room for improvement. While I don't agree that sticking closer to the books would be the right way to go about it (GRRM's style is slightly too poetic for the medium of television IMO, and it shows in some of the more "faithful" scenes they've done), nothing is perfect, and there are plenty of things in both the show and the books that I criticize and would change if I could. But no matter what complaints we have, both the show and the writing are still incredibly good when you compare them to the rest of TV that's currently airing, and in constantly nitpicking small changes or bad decisions I think we tend to forget that here. Acting as if without direct source material the show will flop and cease to be good or popular is kind of ridiculous.

I don't think anyone should be making a comparison between the writing that occurs in a series of 1000 page novels and the writing on a television series. It's two different mediums. And if you put the writing up against something in a novelistic structure against a TV script, the novel's going to win every time, I don't think that's up for debate.

It's more informative to compare the writing on the show to the writing on other television shows. And while the source material provides the show writers with some great stuff to work with, the adaptation also puts roadblocks up that other shows do not need to overcome. The multiple POV structure would never be suggested when attempting to put a television show on the air but GoT needs to incorporate that into their scripts which doesn't allow them to give you many quiet character moments and flashbacks the way other shows are allowed because they need to jet off to the next location to cover that character's story.

I think the acid test here is evaluating the episode scripts that GRRM has written against the other episodes on the show. I like his episodes a lot but are they unequivocally head and shoulders above the writing in the other episodes in the series? Is that 1 episode the only "true" ASOIAF adaptation of the season or do they all have more or less the same look and tone? This is the author of the entire series, who knows these characters and story the best and who has a history in television to boot. And while I look forward to his episodes, I don't feel like there's this evolutionary jump in quality when comparing his to the ones done by D&D/Cogman. So we aren't dealing with hacks here, and I think it's very unfair to keep referring to them this way.

:agree: Great post. This should be required reading. ETA: I'd just like to add that 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair' was my least favorite episode of the entire series so far (though GRRM's other episodes were undoubtedly great), so there's something. Writing a novel and writing for TV are two very different things, with different limitations and different standards.

[HairGrowsBack]

:agree: Great post. This should be required reading. ETA: I'd just like to add that 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair' was my least favorite episode of the entire series so far (though GRRM's other episodes were undoubtedly great), so there's something. Writing a novel and writing for TV are two very different things, with different limitations and different standards.

Well to be fair a lot of what he'd written for the episode has been shuffled to other episodes, so at least 1/3 of the episode isn't actually GRRM's doing.

[Fez]

I'm inclined to believe that the characters at the end of the TV series won't have much to do with the characters from the book series. All the characters, not just some of them. I don't think many of us believe that GRRM will need only two novels to finish the series. It will at least need three, I think, and that most certainly means that TV show will cut not only AFfC/ADwD to pieces, but TWoW, ADoS, and any additional novel(s) as well. Especially since they won't have anything to adapt, at least nothing from the concluding novels.

Does anyone think the Aegon plot will stay in the show, by the way? I'd cut it, if I wanted to cover the whole book series in fashion in 7-8 seasons. Replace Aegon's invasion with Dany's, and get on with the Targaryen restoration thing.

But if Aegon is cut, the whole war in Westeros upon Dany's return will either not happening or happening in a way that has nothing to do with the books. If Jaime, Cersei, Margaery, Mace, Olenna, and others are killed by/in the wake of events caused by Aegon's forces, if Aegon personally executes Tommen and Myrcella, those things won't happen in the TV shows. What if Aegon's forces kill Stannis? What if Sansa is married to King Aegon VI?

The 'broad strokes of every (important) character' means nothing if some of the important characters won't even be introduced.

If Aegon does all that, I think he's stays in. If he just roams around Westeros a while, sacking various castles, and being a general nuisance, I think he'll be cut. The barometer of whether new characters make it in is almost certainly going to be "How important are they are to 1) the ending, and 2) the established characters?" And if they score highly on that barometer, I'd expect them to make it in to the series; no matter how much they complicate the series.

Although there's another question "3) How easily can they replaced by an existing character without changing things dramatically?" So, for the Greyjoys for instance, if their main role is just to provide ships for Dany; that can be replaced by Illyrio simply sending a fleet to her. But for Aegon, if he does all the things you list, that makes him irreplaceable.

Obviously I'm not expecting quite the level of complexity in the show, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want the writing to be a bit better than it is currently. It's already very good but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. And often that improvement could have been found by sticking that much closer to the books in my opinion.

I think the main time the writing suffers is due to events outside the control of D&D (i.e. the sexposition mandate)

[Rashtibram]

Well to be fair a lot of what he'd written for the episode has been shuffled to other episodes, so at least 1/3 of the episode isn't actually GRRM's doing.

True, true…I'm definitely not saying he's a bad writer, don't get me wrong. 'Blackwater' was IMO the best episode so far, and 'The Pointy End' is also in my top 10. I just found the episode a little disappointing, so I was just reinforcing King Tommen's point.