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So, Tyrion is a Lannister… But, Why?


Slayer of Lies

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As we know, there are a great many T=T or A+J=T threads on the forums…



http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75441-a-j-t/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53017-tyrion-as-a-targaryen/


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101235-tyrion-targaryen/


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103341-proof-why-tyrion-can-not-be-a-targaryen-and-is-definitely-a-lannister/


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/37886-tyrion-a-targaryen/


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84029-tyrion-is-a-targaryen-his-siblings-may-be-as-well/


etc.




…and Tyrion’s lineage is discussed heatedly and often, with all the usual T=T clues leading many readers down the Targ path.




· Lock of white blonde hair, which could be seen as a possible Targaryen trait


· Mismatched eyes a la Shiera Seastar, one of the Great Bastards of Aegon IV who lived during the Blackfyre Rebellion


· Black and green eyes, a la TPATQ, or, The Blacks and the Greens, a Targaryen-centric story of the original DotD


· Used to dream he was a Targaryen prince


· Is fascinated with dragons and seemingly knows more about them than any character in the series


· Can fashion special saddles; possible foreshadowing of dragon-riding


· His mother died birthing him, as with Jon and Dany


· The dragon eggs at Drogo’s funeral pyre were place on heart, loins, and head, which many liken to Dany (heart), Jon (loins) and head (…somebody smart with a lot of chapters) who could in turn represent the three heads of the dragon


· Tywin says things like, “I cannot prove that you are not mine,” and, “You are no son of mine.”


· Aerys had an apparent fascination with Joanna


· Oberyn’s tale of Tyrion’s birth is reminiscent of Rhaego’s, and in turn Visenya’s birth in TAPTQ


· T=T would mean Tyrion is not a kinslayer, and that Jaime and Tyrion killed each other’s fathers


· Tyrion says, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes,” which takes on a new meaning if T=T is true


· Etc.




However, what is far less frequently discussed is what Tyrion’s lineage does for the endgame, or the overarching story.



To that point, I wanted to create a thread for people to discuss why they think Tyrion being a Lannister tells a better story than Tyrion being a Targaryen, or visa versa.



First, for reader consideration, I’ve included some thoughts below on some of the usual points of contention so we can get down to the “why” as opposed to the “how":



First up, this post assumes R+L=J is true, so if you would like to add a non-R+L=J angle, feel free, but I do not provide support for that argument.



With that out of the way, one of many things I’ve noted, in addition to the typical bulleted list of T=T clues being “ignored” or “written off” by T=L supporters as unimportant or coincidental, is that the strongest arguments in favor of T=L have their holes as well (or the debate wouldn’t be a debate).



For example, GRRM’s SSM on the naming of Jon, Dany and Tyrion:




Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.




Certainly Tyrion is a Lannister sounding name, and GRRM has confirmed Tyrion’s lineage in the minds of many by the simple distinction of “Tyrion by his father” versus “Jon by Ned.” However, the “most like” can also be taken as a “probably” for those in the T=T camp that also appreciates distinctions, and the choice of “most like” could deliberately be in play by GRRM to perpetuate the mystery of Tyrion’s lineage.



Either way, in both cases it seems readers are either “forced” to accept that Tyrion is Tywin’s son and that Tyrion’s mother’s death, his Targaryen prince dreams and his fascinations with dragons are purely coincidental / red herrings, or that Tyrion is part-Targaryen and GRRM’s quote simply cannot be taken at face value.



It’s not an easy choice, if you try to fairly weight all sides of the debate.



Next up, Moqorro’s quote is frequently called upon as something that works to “separate” Tyrion from the dragons:




"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."




However, where T=L supporters accept the “separation” aspect of this quote (separating Tyrion from dragons), it’s also been noted dragons cast big shadows when they fly overhead, and that they snarl as well. Further, if a “dragon” can be (or symbolize, given the context) a “man,” then a “man” can be a “dragon,” in that a Targaryen man might be called a dragon. Some readers also put an emphases on the word “and” in the “and you” statement, suggesting that this quote doesn’t work to separate Tyrion from dragons, but rather include him as one.



Nonetheless, people that are just as smart as you believe the complete opposite thing that you do (just like politics!) which can be infuriating on both sides.



Next up, Genna Lannister’s quote is also often referenced:




Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.




Certainly Genna believes that Tyrion is Tywin’s son, on the merit that he acts more like Tywin than Jaime does if nothing else, but Tywin’s decision not to speak to Genna thereafter is an important note too. Did he do so because she was right, and he didn’t like hearing it? Or did he not speak to her for a year because Genna reminded Tywin of the fact that he could not prove that Tyrion was not his, which infuriated him to no end?



It has also been noted that Tywin was nothing like Titos, doing everything in his power to be the opposite of a weak, money-lending ruler who was ignored by his vassals. Therein, there is no “genetic proof” of lineage in likening Tyrion’s disposition or habits to Tywin’s.



And, sure, perhaps a propensity toward whores in all three generations could be seen as a commonality, but in Westeros whoring appears to be a “genetic trait” of at least half the men in the series.



Finally, it is also often argued that Tywin being anything other than Tyrion’s father somehow undermines their relationship completely, as one of the greatest “relationship rivalries” of the series.



Yet, if T=T, Tyrion was raised by Tywin either way, and believed him to be his father in the same way an adopted child just learning of their true parents would still recognize the people that raised them as important paternal figures in their life, and the past cannot be undone. So those on the T=T side would suggest that their relationship equally as impactful, and is undermined in no way by Tyrion learning later in life that Tywin was not his father. Instead, it might be an extremely liberating notion for Tyrion to suddenly learn of his alternate parentage. Even more liberating for being somehow “justified” in apparently abandoning his “alleged” family to instead aid the Targaryen cause.



In addition to simply outlining the basic arguments and counters, I would also like to include a couple brief, personal observations that you may or may not share.



For example, it’s my take that “the dragon has three heads” is about three distinct people, and that it would be a “symbolic misfire” for those three people to not have Targaryen blood, particularly when it seems Dany and Jon would seemingly be the other two, and the human brain likes patterns of that nature. And, yes, GRRM has stated that the third head not necessarily BE Targaryen, but Tyrion – being bastard-born in Casterly Rock – would be a Hill (i.e. his chosen nickname of “Hugor Hill”), and “ineligible” to sit the throne by right of not being a legitimized bastard. So GRRM’s statement would retain its accuracy, while Tyrion’s eligibility as a head of the dragon remains intact. Also, GRRM’s statement – along with Moqorro’s prophecy and other quotes – implies strongly to me that the three heads are in fact three distinct beings, and not three elements of a singular being, hence my desire to “search out” those three beings in the first place.



I will also note that – if T=T – then the surviving POVs would currently include Jon, Dany and Tyrion – all at least part-Targ and potential heads of the dragon – as well as Bran, Arya and Sansa – the presently surviving Starks. However, if T=L, then the surviving POVs from AGOT would consist of three Starks, two Targs and a Lannister, which doesn’t seem quite as “poetic” to me as the “three and three” math.



Further, Tyrion (or any AGOT POV) being one of the heads of the dragon would imply an “intentional symmetry” that GRRM had planned to have his three major characters in place from the beginning. As someone who likes to plant things “right under our noses,” this seems a reasonable deduction to me, and of the surviving “non-Targaryen” AGOT POVs, Tyrion seems like the most likely candidate for “part-Targaryen” and/or “head of the dragon” weighed against the three Stark kids.



Anyway, moving on.



In addition to the above considerations, as we know, Tyrion has more POV chapters than any other character in the books thus far (49 at current), in a story that seems largely centered around the Starks and Targaryens (or Dany, at least), so – in ways – Tyrion could be seen to stick out as a sore thumb, either as a possible “strange choice” for a main character, or as someone who must later have major endgame significance or he wouldn’t take up so much darn space.



We can also note that Tyrion has travelled farther and wider than any other character in the series, from the Wall, where the ostensible Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) serves alongside his brothers, and the Rhoyne, where Tyrion defeats a widely accepted “false dragon” at cyvasse, to Meereen, where Tyrion will ultimately also meet the Mother of Dragons (as implied by the “bring ‘em together but don’t give them the confirmation” quote in this article).



Tyrion has also been in the presence of Rhaegar as well, if only as a boy.



We can also note that Tyrion is the only character in the series to have interacted with both Varys and Illyrio, potentially making him the closest thing to an “omniscient” character that the series can provide (or perhaps the closest thing ASOIAF has to a “Gandalf” character).



Additionally, in the article linked to above, GRRM separates Tyrion, Arya and Jon as “major characters,” for which he knows their endings, as opposed to the minor characters that are more “malleable” and inspirable by his muse.



So it is clear that Tyrion is a major a character, but how does it tell a better story for Tyrion to interact with all of the “dragons” if he’s “merely” a Lannister? Do we accept that Tyrion is in Essos purely because he’s been exiled (more or less) and that allying with Dany is the most sensible move for his character to make? Or is Tyrion’s connection with “dragons” possibly deeper than that of a Lannister, which is why GRRM coyly moved him to Essos right under our noses without yet providing his part-Targaryen lineage reveal?



I’ve personally considered the notion that Tyrion might be a half-Targaryen since finishing AGOT the first or second time some fifteen years ago, but it seems that a great many people cannot and will not consider this possibility as good storytelling, or necessary or beneficial to the plot in any way whatsoever.



So, in my case, I’d like to be swayed. I’d like to better understand why a full-blooded Tyrion Lannister tells a better story than one where he “starts out” as Tyrion Lannister, but is later revealed to have Targaryen ties that add even greater significance to his dragon-related thoughts, actions, and interactions with the other major players (and in some cases “dragons”) of the series.



As I’ve said, the “battle” of Tyrion’s lineage is most often fought on logistics, mechanics and “clues,” where his overall “purpose” in the story seems often ignored. And we’ve all read (and contributed to) those threads.



So let’s consider these angles (and other alternatives) instead: If Tyrion is not one of the heads of the dragon, and/or not a Targaryen, why does he have more chapters than anyone else? Why was he one of the eight POVs essential to kicking of series in AGOT? Why is he still alive? Why is he in Essos? Where will he go next? Where will he live out his days post-epilogue? Or will he die before the credits roll? If all he does is take Casterly Rock and “retire,” why was it so important for him to interact with Jon, Dany, Varys, Illyrio, Aegon, Jon Connington, “Lady” Lemore, Littlefinger, Pycelle, Ned, Sansa, etc., etc.?



Why did GRRM “kill” Joanna through Tyrion’s birth (as with Jon’s and Dany’s), if someone whose mother survived their child’s birth is the third head of the dragon? Is this just one of many red herrings? And does it tell a better story, if so?



The list of potential considerations for why Tyrion’s lineage could be important goes on and on…



So with that, I turn it over to you.



If you’re so convinced that Tyrion’s lineage can only be ______, I (and I’m sure many others) would love to read why.


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Finally, it is also often argued that Tywin being anything other than Tyrion’s father somehow undermines their relationship completely, as one of the greatest “relationship rivalries” of the series.

Yet, if T=T, Tyrion was raised by Tywin either way, and believed him to be his father in the same way an adopted child just learning of their true parents would still recognize the people that raised them as important paternal figures in their life, and the past cannot be undone. So those on the T=T side would suggest that their relationship equally as impactful, and is undermined in no way by Tyrion learning later in life that Tywin was not his father. Instead, it might be an extremely liberating notion for Tyrion to suddenly learn of his alternate parentage. Even more liberating for being somehow “justified” in apparently abandoning his “alleged” family to instead aid the Targaryen cause.

The 'liberating' factor is exactly why it undermines their relationship. What Tyrion did haunts him. If Tywin is not Tyrion's father then that weight is lifted. Tyrion is no longer a disappointment and a kinslayer.

Further, Tywin dominates everything about Tyrion's character, even in death. Tyrion has lived his entire life in a manner designed to gain his father's respect and attention. He continues to do so by questing after "wherever whores go". Having Tywin be merely his foster-father twists that aspect of their relationship.

Plus, if Tyrion is in fact not Tywin's then Tywin's treatment of him is justified(ish). It doesn't just cheapen Tyrion's character it affects Tywin's too, turning some of his most cruel behaviour into just another example of the ends justifying the means.

I will also note that – if T=T – then the surviving POVs would currently include Jon, Dany and Tyrion – all at least part-Targ and potential heads of the dragon – as well as Bran, Arya and Sansa – the presently surviving Starks.

And Cersei, and Jamie; both Lannisters. Also Davos, Asha, Theon (ATM), Victarion, Sam, Mel and Areo.

So 3-4 Starks, 1-3 Targaryeans, 2-3 Lannisters, 3 Greyjoys, a Tarly, two random dudes and a woman. Where is your poetic symmetry now!?!

In addition to the above considerations, as we know, Tyrion has more POV chapters than any other character in the books thus far (49 at current), in a story that seems largely centered around the Starks and Targaryens (or Dany, at least), so – in ways – Tyrion could be seen to stick out as a sore thumb, either as a possible “strange choice” for a main character, or as someone who must later have major endgame significance or he wouldn’t take up so much darn space.

I would suggest that Tyrion's importance to the story isn't necessarily in the endgame (though that may well be significant in and of itself) but rather in bringing the story together. Tyrion is our first POV that is openly, if not directly, antagonistic to other POVs. He's the first character that establishes the way truth is changed in POV story telling. He is also, as you point out latter, well-traveled, giving us insight into a variety of places without the need to create new characters there. He interacts with countless other characters and his insights on them are often the only insights we get on those people. Tyrion is our host, he introduces the other guests and the settings, but that doesn't make him the star of the show.

You compare him to Gandalf later and I think that's a very good comparison. Gandalf is crucial to the plot of LotR, without him the story simply cannot function. But equally important to Gandalf's character is the fact that he is not the chosen one. He is not the Ringbearer, he is not the King-in-Exile. He facilitates, he manages these characters but ultimately the story, the fate of mankind, is decided by Aragorn and Frodo (and Sam). Could they have succeeded without Gandalf? Almost certainly not, but the plan doesn't even exist without them.

As a final point: My biggest problem with these secret lineage theories is always, how will they prove it in story? This is especially problematic in Tyrion's case because we know that Tywin, one of the most ruthless, patient and intelligent characters in the story, tried for decades to prove this theory and couldn't. That means proof of it simply does not exist in story, no one knows this secret. If there's no one to tell us, how do we find out? And if we can't find out, does it matter?

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Tyrion being a Targ does not remove the stain of kinslaying. Tywin and Joanna were cousins, which means Tywin is Tyrion's cousin even if he's not Tyrion's father. Still kin. Still kinslaying.



I disagree that Tywin's treatment of Tyrion becomes justified if Tyrion is Aerys' son. That only works if Tywin knows for certain that Tyrion isn't his, which is unlikely unless Joanna cut him off well before the conception. Tywin himself refutes that possibility by saying he can't prove Tyrion isn't his. As long as Tywin didn't know otherwise, he should have treated Tyrion the same as his other children. Proof coming out after the man's death doesn't change a thing in that regard. I don't really lean more towards one side of this discussion or the other, but I expect both sides to come up with better than that.


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I think it's more to do with the fact that there's already (f)Aegon and Jon. If Tyrion is a Targ it might seem like a bit of an overkill of secret Targs introduced into the story. Even maester Aemon was a secret Targ (well not really, but kind of)

I'm not denying the possibility though.

With Aemon dead and Aegon likely being a fake, wouldn't it seem strange for the series to feature Dany and Jon as the only "ProTargonists" seemingly critical to the endgame? That just feels "asymmetrical" to me... As would elevating Jon's importance, and having Dany suddenly take a backstage as a "proven" red herring of sorts once Jon's "big reveal" takes place.

Surely Dany will wonder again about the significance of "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads," if it is ever brought to light that she, Jon and possibly Aegon could very well be the last Targaryens, and the tie-in to what "Rhaegar" meant in the HOTU.

But if Aegon is proven false via the "slayer of lies" HOTU triplet, won't Dany think again: "There must be one more"?

So who would the three heads be, if they are distinct people, and not Tyrion? Might "Aegon" still be considered a head of the dragon, even as a false Targ, because he is somehow necessary to reclamation of KL or the destruction of the Others, rendering Tyrion's possible Targ lineage "unnecessary?"

And, if so, how will readers of the series who have been following since the late 90s feel about a non-POV character introduced in 2011 being "more important" to the endgame than the majority of the POVs in the books, including most of those introduced in AGOT?

Further, how would it fit for someone with only a "drop or two" of Targ blood (or no Targ blood at all) to be this critical third person/head, when the key word in Rhaegar's choice of words appears to be "dragon?"

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And Cersei, and Jamie; both Lannisters. Also Davos, Asha, Theon (ATM), Victarion, Sam, Mel and Areo.

So 3-4 Starks, 1-3 Targaryeans, 2-3 Lannisters, 3 Greyjoys, a Tarly, two random dudes and a woman. Where is your poetic symmetry now!?!

My observation there pertained to AGOT POVs. Not characters in AGOT who later became POVs.

If T=T, and R+L=J, then the remaining AGOT POVs would be Jon, Dany, Tryion (Targ), and Sansa, Bran, Arya (Stark). Three and three, which is presents a nice symmetry. Certainly one could also accept this as a coincidence, in the event they even accept both Jon's and Tyrion's Targ lineage theories.

I would suggest that Tyrion's importance to the story isn't necessarily in the endgame (though that may well be significant in and of itself) but rather in bringing the story together. Tyrion is our first POV that is openly, if not directly, antagonistic to other POVs. He's the first character that establishes the way truth is changed in POV story telling. He is also, as you point out latter, well-traveled, giving us insight into a variety of places without the need to create new characters there. He interacts with countless other characters and his insights on them are often the only insights we get on those people. Tyrion is our host, he introduces the other guests and the settings, but that doesn't make him the star of the show.

You compare him to Gandalf later and I think that's a very good comparison. Gandalf is crucial to the plot of LotR, without him the story simply cannot function. But equally important to Gandalf's character is the fact that he is not the chosen one. He is not the Ringbearer, he is not the King-in-Exile. He facilitates, he manages these characters but ultimately the story, the fate of mankind, is decided by Aragorn and Frodo (and Sam). Could they have succeeded without Gandalf? Almost certainly not, but the plan doesn't even exist without them.

As a final point: My biggest problem with these secret lineage theories is always, how will they prove it in story? This is especially problematic in Tyrion's case because we know that Tywin, one of the most ruthless, patient and intelligent characters in the story, tried for decades to prove this theory and couldn't. That means proof of it simply does not exist in story, no one knows this secret. If there's no one to tell us, how do we find out? And if we can't find out, does it matter?

This is great reasoning. The sort of reason I mentioned the "Gandalf" typecast/trope, and started this thread in the first place, and I thank you for your reply.

It doesn't necessarily directly address why it's "coincidental" that Tryion's mother died birthing him, but meaningful that Jon's and Dany's did (or, alternatively, that all three deaths are coincidental). It also doesn't address - for me - several other other coincidences in the list of T=T clues/observations. But it's extremely sound logic, and I can see your viewpoint.

But that's the big problem that I have with this debate: there's great logic being applied on both sides of it, and intelligent people coming to perfectly rational conclusions on both sides.

Yet I continue to see Tyrion's purely Lannister lineage as a missed opportunity in the overarching story, and struggle with the true meaning of "the dragon has three heads," the significance of Jon's, Dany's and Tyrion's mothers all dying at birth, and the "necessity" of Tyrion's obsession with dragons and dreaming he's a Targ prince if those things are simply "character traits" or "happenstance" as opposed to tied in with some sort endgame play where the characters we've been following the longest are the ones tied to the most meaningful prophecies.

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We can also note that Tyrion has travelled farther and wider than any other character in the series, from the Wall, where the ostensible Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) serves alongside his brothers, and the Rhoyne, where Tyrion defeats a widely accepted “false dragon” at cyvasse, to Meereen, where Tyrion will ultimately also meet the Mother of Dragons (as implied by the “bring ‘em together but don’t give them the confirmation” quote in this article).

Would this mean that every traveler we meet is a secret Targ? Is Euron Aerys' son since he allegedly traveled to Valyria? Captain Groleo, captain of a fleet of merchant ships, traveled many miles in his trade route from Pentos to Asshai. Is he also a Targaryen? Of course, there's also Jorah who has traveled much more than Tyrion.

Tyrion has also been in the presence of Rhaegar as well, if only as a boy.

If we add extensive travel as well as meeting Rhaegar and interacting with Starks and Targs in the past and present, we should probably include Jorah as a possible secret Targ.

We can also note that Tyrion is the only character in the series to have interacted with both Varys and Illyrio, potentially making him the closest thing to an “omniscient” character that the series can provide (or perhaps the closest thing ASOIAF has to a “Gandalf” character).

Luckily we may be able to remove Euron from speculation since it's unlikely/unknown he's interacted with Varys or Illyrio. It's impossible to remove all the many ship captains because we know at least one interacted with Illyrio (Captain Groleo), though it's unknown if there was any interaction with Varys in any way. But Jorah still meets all this criteria. Interacted with Varys and Illyrio, check. Met Rhaegar, check. Extensive travel, check. Let's see what else.

Additionally, in the article linked to above, GRRM separates Tyrion, Arya and Jon as “major characters,” for which he knows their endings, as opposed to the minor characters that are more “malleable” and inspirable by his muse.

So it is clear that Tyrion is a major a character, but how does it tell a better story for Tyrion to interact with all of the “dragons” if he’s “merely” a Lannister? Do we accept that Tyrion is in Essos purely because he’s been exiled (more or less) and that allying with Dany is the most sensible move for his character to make? Or is Tyrion’s connection with “dragons” possibly deeper than that of a Lannister, which is why GRRM coyly moved him to Essos right under our noses without yet providing his part-Targaryen lineage reveal?

I'm not really sure how Tyrion being a main character is evidence towards a Targaryen parentage. Is this also true for Arya? Do we accept that Arya is in Essos just for Faceless Man training or is she there to ally with Dany and discover her Targ roots or something? Is it why she spied on Varys and Illyrio and traveled all over the Riverlands and then across the Narrow Sea? Is that why Victarion is going to Dany? (Of course, Vic is discounted due to not interacting with Varys and Illyrio which is part of your criteria). Is it why Jorah has been with Dany since the start of the series and why he traveled so extensively and met Rhaegar and interacted with Varys and Illyrio?

So let’s consider these angles (and other alternatives) instead: If Tyrion is not one of the heads of the dragon, and/or not a Targaryen, why does he have more chapters than anyone else? Why was he one of the eight POVs essential to kicking of series in AGOT? Why is he still alive? Why is he in Essos? Where will he go next? Where will he live out his days post-epilogue? Or will he die before the credits roll? If all he does is take Casterly Rock and “retire,” why was it so important for him to interact with Jon, Dany, Varys, Illyrio, Aegon, Jon Connington, “Lady” Lemore, Littlefinger, Pycelle, Ned, Sansa, etc., etc.?

Why did GRRM “kill” Joanna through Tyrion’s birth (as with Jon’s and Dany’s), if someone whose mother survived their child’s birth is the third head of the dragon? Is this just one of many red herrings? And does it tell a better story, if so?

Now you're sort of just tacking on even more random requirements for this "it makes sense for Tyrion to be a Targ thing". As though it's necessary for Targs to have interacted with all these people. The known Targs didn't. The presumed secret Targ (Jon) hasn't. It's as though you added all these interactions to your list just to discount Jorah. Though, we'd be able to toss Jon Con into the contenders since he's met them all save for Sansa, etc etc etc (who are these etc?).

You've made a list of criteria for reasons why Tyrion should be a Targ. Yet the list is based on things that can be applied to several characters (extensive travel, interaction with a lot of folks, meeting Rhaegar). The only input you've given on why the story is better if Tyrion were a Targ is the three heads of the dragos thing and Dany questioning it. Our friend Jorah answered that for Dany (after making sure he fit all the criteria, of course) that it could be two husbands. This doesn't tell us how you think the story would be better, so it's rather difficult to refute your points other than showing that your list is sorta weird.

Further, how would it fit for someone with only a "drop or two" of Targ blood (or no Targ blood at all) to be this critical third person/head, when the key word in Rhaegar's choice of words appears to be "dragon?"

A key word in Rhaegar prophecy interpretation is "wrong". He was wrong about it being him, he was wrong about it being his first son. I think it stands to reason that he was wrong about the meaning of "the dragon has three heads". Unless he meant Jorah. Then it makes sense. :dunno:

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I think he is a Lannister. I agree with many that if he were a Targ, his and Tywin's relationship and hostility towards each other would be less interesting and less tragic and &#!@ed up. The same goes for Tyrion and his siblings' relationships. The tension and personal hatred/grudges would ultimately be less meaningful and powerful to the reader. The dynamic and events between Tywin and his children are some of the best written and interesting arcs in the books, imo. Tyrion got Tywin's cunning, Cercei got his ruthlessness, and Jaime got his talent on the battlefield, all with devastating side effects...

Tywin messed his kids up. Real bad. Even after his death, his influence remains. Tyrion constantly asking himself where whores go and even talking to Tywin in his head, Cercei always comparing herself to him and how he was more respected in KL after Joff's death, also still trying to prove to him that she is the best of his children, even after he's dead. Jaime's is a different, but just as emotionally scarring story. He was basically a chess piece in a game between Aerys and Tywin, and since then has been fighting demons regarding his honor and his "so many oaths" because of the situation he was put in. Also, he, unlike his siblings, wasn't constantly trying to prove his worth to Tywin because he was his favorite. Instead, he's been trying to prove to himself that his actions have been justified and/or honorable. The biggest similarity I saw between him and Tywin was their mutual feeling of superiority. Fortunately for him, he lost those feelings when he lost his hand.

Basically, I'm saying this is all very emotional and powerful stuff, especially in Tyrion's case, being basically despised by Tywin and also extremely influenced by him. I would feel robbed if it turned out his complex and heartbreaking relationships between him and his father and siblings were all for nothing.

Bottom line: I think he is a Lannister. I think Tywin was his father, and I think any other scenario would lesson the value and tragedy of the Lannister family arc, which, at its core, is about Tywin loving the name of his House more than the actual people in it, resulting in screwing up his children and eventually getting himself killed, leaving his entire House in jeopardy. The repercussions of his actions are ongoing, especially because of Cercei. Tyrion and Jaime seem to be released from some of his negative influence, but at this point, so much damage has been done already.

Sorry to go off topic a little regarding his siblings, but it's all connected in my opinion. I want him to be a Lannister because of his relationships with them just as much, that's all.

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Killer of Lies, you have basically put up all my thoughts about my belief in Tyrion being a dragonseed (if not a Targ) in a single post. I could not agree more. And as for Tyrion being Tywin's son, well, it's not different from Jon being Ned's son in the eyes of many characters...



ETA: you should also mention the textual clues linking Viserion to Tyrion, like her hatching:



A chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, (...)






Would this mean that every traveler we meet is a secret Targ? Is Euron Aerys' son since he allegedly traveled to Valyria? Captain Groleo, captain of a fleet of merchant ships, traveled many miles in his trade route from Pentos to Asshai. Is he also a Targaryen? Of course, there's also Jorah who has traveled much more than Tyrion.


If we add extensive travel as well as meeting Rhaegar and interacting with Starks and Targs in the past and present, we should probably include Jorah as a possible secret Targ.



(...)




You can do much better than this Dr. Pepper... And as a matter of fact I find it significant how Egg the traveler behaves like Tyrion... (your big mouth will be your doom, his Houses knowledge, his intelligence...) and Bronn and Jorah and Duck (!) can be compared to Dunk...


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Killer of Lies, you have basically put up all my thoughts about my belief in Tyrion being a dragonseed (if not a Targ) in a single post. I could not agree more. And as for Tyrion being Tywin's son, well, it's not different to Jon being Ned's son in the eyes of many characters...

You can do much better than this Dr. Pepper... And as a matter of fact I find it significant how Egg the traveler behaves like Tyrion... (your big mouth will be your doom, his Houses knowledge, his intelligence...) and Bronn and Jorah and Duck (!) can be compared to Dunk...

Unfortunately, I'll need 15 years to work better with the OP's epic framework.

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while i want tyrion to be a secret targ so, badly, im on the bandwagon that everyone in the book cant be a secret targ.



my reasons for wanting tyrion to be a targ is because i think there was more to Ser Ilyn losing his tongue than just a snide comment. I think Ilyn walked in on something, maybe aerys and joanna, and had his tongue removed so he wouldnt say anything.



while joanna dying because of childbirth is completely viable, i still speculate in my mind if thats how it went down -- or was it MURDER!!



i want to believe this, so badly, i just dont think the story will pan out that way.



id sooner believe instead that jaime/cersei are targs, based on their attraction to each other, cersei's obvious incoming madness and obsession with wildfire, etc. she's pretty much aerys reborn. but no, i know and have accepted, all three are lannisters.



tyrion being a targaryen would be the ultimate twist though, and id love to see it happen.


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on a side note, since in the original post it was assumed r+l=j to be true, i want so badly to see George do a COMPLETE 180, since this is probably the most popular theory in all of this forum. I hope George knows the popularity of the theory, and decides at the last minute, to sub rhaegar out for someone else.



aka Arthur Dayne, plus Lyanna, equals Jon Snow.


or Howland Reed, plus Lyanna Stark, equals Jon Snow




OMFG, Tywin Lannister, plus Lyanna Stark, equals Jon Snow. :o



and i havent ruled out the surprise contender could very well be robert baratheon either ;)


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Can people please stop using the whole "oh yes and everyone is a secret targ, including Hot Pie" If this is truly what you think, then use it against Jon too.




My best guess for how the truth comes out about Tyrion having Targ blood:

First, it is entirely possible that Barristan and Varys could know that Aerys did in fact sleep with Joanna. If Varys, knows it, the so would Illyrio. It may have been written on the letter that was handing to Jon Connington, and then quickly burnt (or not) But here is my more dramatic guess....

"He had drunk too much last night. His head was pounding..... "Come drink with me." The fat man said. "A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say."....... "I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

"Let's hope this dream was not prophetic. You are a clever imp, as Varys said......"


My guess. Tyrion gets brought in front of Dany (maybe be Jorah). He gives it his best shot, trying to convince her that she needs him. That he is against his Cersei, he even killed Tywin, her greatest enemy. Dany is enraged. She has a Lannister in front of her. She doesn't physically mistake him for the actual Kingsguard who slayed Aerys, but she still finds him responsible. I remember she thought of Ned Stark as just as evil as Robert, even though Jorah was trying to tell her different. She mistakes Tyrion as the enemy, and sentences him to death. Dany is full dragon bitch at this point. She may or may not have already fed a traitor to a dragon before this. Again, we think Tyrion is about to die, but alas! His dragon blood saves him. Drogon (or whichever one) likes Tyrion and won't do it.

I think Illyrio's line, "Let's hope that dream was not prophetic" is great. To me, it means that it will be prophetic, although not prophetic of his death, only the scenario.

Barristan sees this all go down, and remembers Aerys' secrets. He has never truly known who Tyrion's father was, only that Aerys had his way with her and it could be his. But now he is certain. He hates to have to tell Daenerys awful things about her father, but now he feels like he has to.

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Can people please stop using the whole "oh yes and everyone is a secret targ, including Hot Pie" If this is truly what you think, then use it against Jon too.

My best guess for how the truth comes out about Tyrion having Targ blood:

First, it is entirely possible that Barristan and Varys could know that Aerys did in fact sleep with Joanna. If Varys, knows it, the so would Illyrio. It may have been written on the letter that was handing to Jon Connington, and then quickly burnt (or not) But here is my more dramatic guess....

"He had drunk too much last night. His head was pounding..... "Come drink with me." The fat man said. "A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say."....... "I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

"Let's hope this dream was not prophetic. You are a clever imp, as Varys said......"

My guess. Tyrion gets brought in front of Dany (maybe be Jorah). He gives it his best shot, trying to convince her that she needs him. That he is against his Cersei, he even killed Tywin, her greatest enemy. Dany is enraged. She has a Lannister in front of her. She doesn't physically mistake him for the actual Kingsguard who slayed Aerys, but she still finds him responsible. I remember she thought of Ned Stark as just as evil as Robert, even though Jorah was trying to tell her different. She mistakes Tyrion as the enemy, and sentences him to death. Dany is full dragon bitch at this point. She may or may not have already fed a traitor to a dragon before this. Again, we think Tyrion is about to die, but alas! His dragon blood saves him. Drogon (or whichever one) likes Tyrion and won't do it.

I think Illyrio's line, "Let's hope that dream was not prophetic" is great. To me, it means that it will be prophetic, although not prophetic of his death, only the scenario.

Barristan sees this all go down, and remembers Aerys' secrets. He has never truly known who Tyrion's father was, only that Aerys had his way with her and it could be his. But now he is certain. He hates to have to tell Daenerys awful things about her father, but now he feels like he has to.

i believe when the conversation came up, about daenerys asking barristan about aerys, he was about to tell ehr the truth, and daenerys said, "at a later time," or soemthing to that effect. there could be more there, i guess.

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while i want tyrion to be a secret targ so, badly, im on the bandwagon that everyone in the book cant be a secret targ.

my reasons for wanting tyrion to be a targ is because i think there was more to Ser Ilyn losing his tongue than just a snide comment. I think Ilyn walked in on something, maybe aerys and joanna, and had his tongue removed so he wouldnt say anything.

while joanna dying because of childbirth is completely viable, i still speculate in my mind if thats how it went down -- or was it MURDER!!

i want to believe this, so badly, i just dont think the story will pan out that way.

id sooner believe instead that jaime/cersei are targs, based on their attraction to each other, cersei's obvious incoming madness and obsession with wildfire, etc. she's pretty much aerys reborn. but no, i know and have accepted, all three are lannisters.

tyrion being a targaryen would be the ultimate twist though, and id love to see it happen.

It would be great if that was the case! Not that husband's murdering wives is great. The sadness that Tywin carried with his after Joanna died, it would add to it for sure.

Probably will never be able to be found out. If anyone knew, I am sure Tywin would have killed them too. Gota cover your tracks.

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