So, Tyrion is a Lannister… But, Why?

[TheWanderer]

Tyrion being a Targ does not remove the stain of kinslaying. Tywin and Joanna were cousins, which means Tywin is Tyrion's cousin even if he's not Tyrion's father. Still kin. Still kinslaying.

Because killing your father and killing your mother's cousin are totally the same thing. There's a massive gulf between the two emotionally.

I disagree that Tywin's treatment of Tyrion becomes justified if Tyrion is Aerys' son. That only works if Tywin knows for certain that Tyrion isn't his, which is unlikely unless Joanna cut him off well before the conception. Tywin himself refutes that possibility by saying he can't prove Tyrion isn't his. As long as Tywin didn't know otherwise, he should have treated Tyrion the same as his other children.

Tywin believed that Tyrion wasn't his and he treated Tyrion based on this belief. If it turns out that this belief was true then he was right (or at least as 'right' as tywin ever is) to treat Tyrion the way he did. It doesn't matter that he didn't have the facts to prove it, his belief was true.

With Aemon dead and Aegon likely being a fake, wouldn't it seem strange for the series to feature Dany and Jon as the only "ProTargonists" seemingly critical to the endgame? That just feels "asymmetrical" to me... As would elevating Jon's importance, and having Dany suddenly take a backstage as a "proven" red herring of sorts once Jon's "big reveal" takes place.

1) I personally don't believe that R+L=J.

2) Using other, unverified, theories in support of this one makes your reasoning very weak. If either plays out the way the books have directly laid out this point falls apart completely.

Surely Dany will wonder again about the significance of "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads," if it is ever brought to light that she, Jon and possibly Aegon could very well be the last Targaryens, and the tie-in to what "Rhaegar" meant in the HOTU.

But if Aegon is proven false via the "slayer of lies" HOTU triplet, won't Dany think again: "There must be one more"?

If Aegon is proven fake via being a Blackfyre then he can still easily qualify as a dragon. Far more easily than either Jon or Tyrion in fact.

And of course that's assuming that Rhaegar is correct in this third attempt at interpreting a prophecy that may not be a real prophecy, let alone accurate.

And, if so, how will readers of the series who have been following since the late 90s feel about a non-POV character introduced in 2011 being "more important" to the endgame than the majority of the POVs in the books, including most of those introduced in AGOT?

The same way they felt when the 'main' character of the first book was killed? GRRM isn't writing these books to cater to readers expectations or entitlements, he's writing them to tell his story. A story that is far more realistic than is commonly seen in the genre. Heroes come out of nowhere all the time in real life, I could see GRRM pulling that here.

Further, how would it fit for someone with only a "drop or two" of Targ blood (or no Targ blood at all) to be this critical third person/head, when the key word in Rhaegar's choice of words appears to be "dragon?"

Isn't this a better argument against Tyrion? After all, Tyrion merely has Targaryean blood, Aegon is a Blackfyre (potentially) and thus a dragon.

My observation there pertained to AGOT POVs. Not characters in AGOT who later became POVs.

And that's another problem I have with these sorts of theories, they marginalize significant characters. We are given those POVs for a reason, because something they tell or show us is important to the story being told here. ASOIAF isn't Jon, Dany and TYrion's story; if it was they were the only people we'd see it through. It's everyone's story, that's why we follow them.

It doesn't necessarily directly address why it's "coincidental" that Tryion's mother died birthing him, but meaningful that Jon's and Dany's did (or, alternatively, that all three deaths are coincidental).

If Jon has a mom he can go to her and find acceptance, he doesn't need the Wall and his story goes nowhere. If Dany has a mom Viserys can't mistreat her and prostitute her and her story goes nowhere. If Tyrion has a mom a) Cersei can't blame him for her death, b: Tywin can't mistreat him as much, c) he has a loving influence in his life; his basic character is fundamentally altered.

[Blazfemur]

It would be great if that was the case! Not that husband's murdering wives is great. The sadness that Tywin carried with his after Joanna died, it would add to it for sure.

Probably will never be able to be found out. If anyone knew, I am sure Tywin would have killed them too. Gota cover your tracks.

well, similar to victarian/euron and victarians first wife, right?

tyrion would be evidence of joanna's unfaithfulness, if this theory is accurate. when tywin says that tyrion killed joanna, it's possible that what tywin meant was tyrion's existence killed who tywin saw her as; a faithful, loving wife (whether it was rape or by love, im sure joanna kept the scenario a secret anyway)

[Dana Holland]

I like the idea of Tyrion being a targ. It will play well imo to show how impotent Tywin really is. Tywin can push around lower houses all he wants but when it comes right down to it. If Aerys really did rape Joanna Tywin does nothing.

[Blazfemur]

I like the idea of Tyrion being a targ. It will play well imo to show how impotent Tywin really is. Tywin can push around lower houses all he wants but when it comes right down to it. If Aerys really did rape Joanna Tywin does nothing.

did he rape joanna? or did joanna cheat on tywin knowingly?

[Dana Holland]

did he rape joanna? or did joanna cheat on tywin knowingly?

It's unknown but the phrasing used is "taken liberties" I always read that as euphanism for forcing himself but we don't know for certain

[Blazfemur]

It's unknown but the phrasing used is "taken liberties" I always read that as euphanism for forcing himself but we don't know for certain

as far as i know, the lannister children all share a common trait -- their love of sex. lesser jaime once he's on his redemptive arc, but it is all obvious they all love sex. i dont see that trait in tywin... so where do they get it from?

[King Jaime Lannister]

well, similar to victarian/euron and victarians first wife, right?

tyrion would be evidence of joanna's unfaithfulness, if this theory is accurate. when tywin says that tyrion killed joanna, it's possible that what tywin meant was tyrion's existence killed who tywin saw her as; a faithful, loving wife (whether it was rape or by love, im sure joanna kept the scenario a secret anyway)

Yeah Victarion! I was trying to think of what husband killed his wife in a rage. Love it though.

Tywin is such an interesting character. I think we all hate him. We were totally glad that he was killed. Yet at the same time most of us love him! We wish we could be more like him at work. Contrast that with say Theon who is very polarizing.

[Blazfemur]

i mean im not insinuating that NONE of her children are tywin's that would be blasphemous.. but the idea that tywin didn't bear ANY children secretly, would definitely undermine one who many perceive as a god

im just planting the seed, that perhaps joanna was more of a tart than what we're led to believe. not a lot is known about her, her death seems shady, and ser ilyn's tongue being removed just for a snide comment? i think ilyn saw something, and had it removed as to not tell anyone.

i think joanna mightve gotten around a little more than tywin knew about.

[Boarsbane]

as far as i know, the lannister children all share a common trait -- their love of sex. lesser jaime once he's on his redemptive arc, but it is all obvious they all love sex. i dont see that trait in tywin... so where do they get it from?

How do you figure they share a love sex? Jaime has only had sex with one woman his entire life and Cersei isn't fucking everyone in King's Landing because she enjoys it. Tyrion seems to be the one who "loves sex". Most of the Lannister children don't seem to love sex anymore than any other person.

[King Jaime Lannister]

So to go more into Tyrion's overall arch, and how it fits in with Dany....

I wonder if Tyrion will be the betrayal for gold? So let's say Dany let's Tryion into her circle. Let's say he learns or is able to ride a dragon. He then uses his influence / power to take The Rock, and somehow screws her over in the process. The West, the Rock, everything Lannister is the thing probably most associated with gold in the series right?

[Slayer of Lies]

Would this mean that every traveler we meet is a secret Targ? Is Euron Aerys' son since he allegedly traveled to Valyria? Captain Groleo, captain of a fleet of merchant ships, traveled many miles in his trade route from Pentos to Asshai. Is he also a Targaryen? Of course, there's also Jorah who has traveled much more than Tyrion.

If we add extensive travel as well as meeting Rhaegar and interacting with Starks and Targs in the past and present, we should probably include Jorah as a possible secret Targ.

Luckily we may be able to remove Euron from speculation since it's unlikely/unknown he's interacted with Varys or Illyrio. It's impossible to remove all the many ship captains because we know at least one interacted with Illyrio (Captain Groleo), though it's unknown if there was any interaction with Varys in any way. But Jorah still meets all this criteria. Interacted with Varys and Illyrio, check. Met Rhaegar, check. Extensive travel, check. Let's see what else.

I'm not really sure how Tyrion being a main character is evidence towards a Targaryen parentage. Is this also true for Arya? Do we accept that Arya is in Essos just for Faceless Man training or is she there to ally with Dany and discover her Targ roots or something? Is it why she spied on Varys and Illyrio and traveled all over the Riverlands and then across the Narrow Sea? Is that why Victarion is going to Dany? (Of course, Vic is discounted due to not interacting with Varys and Illyrio which is part of your criteria). Is it why Jorah has been with Dany since the start of the series and why he traveled so extensively and met Rhaegar and interacted with Varys and Illyrio?

Now you're sort of just tacking on even more random requirements for this "it makes sense for Tyrion to be a Targ thing". As though it's necessary for Targs to have interacted with all these people. The known Targs didn't. The presumed secret Targ (Jon) hasn't. It's as though you added all these interactions to your list just to discount Jorah. Though, we'd be able to toss Jon Con into the contenders since he's met them all save for Sansa, etc etc etc (who are these etc?).

You've made a list of criteria for reasons why Tyrion should be a Targ. Yet the list is based on things that can be applied to several characters (extensive travel, interaction with a lot of folks, meeting Rhaegar). The only input you've given on why the story is better if Tyrion were a Targ is the three heads of the dragos thing and Dany questioning it. Our friend Jorah answered that for Dany (after making sure he fit all the criteria, of course) that it could be two husbands. This doesn't tell us how you think the story would be better, so it's rather difficult to refute your points other than showing that your list is sorta weird.

A key word in Rhaegar prophecy interpretation is "wrong". He was wrong about it being him, he was wrong about it being his first son. I think it stands to reason that he was wrong about the meaning of "the dragon has three heads". Unless he meant Jorah. Then it makes sense. :dunno:

While Tyrion being a POV isn’t an inherent “filter,” nor is his being “widely travelled,” I put these elements in play because we’re dealing with a fictional work, whereupon the POV characters we’ve read about the most (i.e. since AGOT) who have "done the most" and who survive to the end (assuming Jon, Dany and Tyrion all live) would seem to be the ones that critical endgame events at the Wall, in KL and in Winterfell (as “primary” examples) are told through.

And while Tyrion can be a “window” into one or several of these stories/chapters, or even affect events directly as a non-dragon-riding Lannister, it seems to me there’d be a higher payoff value to a “change of heart” (possibly driven by a “change” of lineage) that spurred on a motivation to “save Westeros” out of the onus of “prophetic necessity” and/or “bloodright,” as opposed to so many potential alternatives for his character. But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.

I suppose, by pointing out the fallacies in any T=T argument, that one can also attempt to deride a T=T theory or supporter by insinuating that characters like Euron are in contention for “main character,” or that Jorah is a likely candidate for a head of the dragon by right of travel alone, but I'm clearly not suggesting that POV and non-POV characters alike are all equally weighted candidates for "main characters" on one aspect of their arc or character alone. Rather, it’s the combination of the “filters” of Tyrion being a POV (dating back to AGOT), his “dragon-specific” travel (starting in AGOT Jon and Aemon and continuing through ADWD with “Aegon” and eventually Dany), and other “dragon related character clues” laden throughout his chapters in the series that elevate Tyrion’s potential candidacy beyond the others.

At least in my view, and the views of several others.

So, no, I don’t find myself inclined to elevate the other non-POVs you mentioned into the mix of “main character” or “candidate for head of the dragon” or “equally important to the endgame” in the same way I do with Tyrion. And it would seem that most fans of the series can agree that Jorah, Euron, Ser Pounce and several others are unlikely heads of the dragon or part-Targ candidates.

It isn’t that Tyrion is my favorite character or anything. Instead, elevating him into “three heads” candidacy by way of attempting to add up all the literal “clues” GRRM has placed (in consideration of Dany’s and Jon’s Targaryen history) “feels better” or “makes more sense” to me than Tyrion purely retaining his Lannister lineage through the end. So color me a little disappointed if he “remains” a Lannister, where others would be disappointed if he suddenly “became” a Targ (despite that all of his former actions and relationships would still be equally as meaningful, in my view, considering the circumstances under which they were committed).

Again, it’s the combination of several details in the narrative – the fact that he’s a POV (where Aegon isn’t), when he was introduced as a POV in the series (book one), his “dragon related” foreshadowing (from AGOT through ADWD), his total chapter count (currently exceeding all others), his knowledge of dragons (which seemingly no living character can rival), his Targaryen prince dreams (why?), Aerys’ apparent “attraction” to Joanna (which opens the “logistics” door to him later conceiving Tyrion with Joanna), Tywin’s outright hatred of Tyrion and the “you’re no son of mine” comments… and so on – that would seem to meet neatly with the “opportunity” of the dragon having three heads, and with those identities/characters being consistent with the symbolism of the placement of the dragon eggs at Drogo’s funeral pyre dating all the way back to AGOT, if that can also be accepted as foreshadowing.

As I see it, there are dragons, and there are “dragons,” with the literal dragons being numbered at three, and with three (ostensibly part-Targaryen) characters rising to “greater import” than some of the others, or else – despite the fact that Rhaegar was wrong in his prophetic interpretation – GRRM will have misled a large section of his audience to “look for” the most sensible characters to match up to the three heads of the dragon.

Personally, I don’t think my list of T=T support is “weird,” as it’s largely a copy-paste from threads throughout the board, all of which I’m sure you’ve read, and all of which reinforce ideas I’ve either thought of on my own or agreed with for a long time. But the T=T subject is apparently always met with mixed feelings, and – again – it’s challenging to accept opposing views herein, although it is an open debate or there wouldn’t be so many readers on both sides.

But my initial goal in starting this thread wasn’t necessarily to defend my own beliefs or weighting of various clues, but rather to understand the beliefs and feelings of others, as – in the same way you struggle with seeing Tyrion as a Targ – I struggle with his “endgame value” as a Lannister. And I would love to be equally accepting of the notion that Tyrion as a Lannister tells just as good of a story, if not better, than Tyrion as a Targ. After all, if that's the way it turns out, I would like to still love this series all the same.

I’m not sure where the thread will lead yet, but I do hope some new ideas come out of it instead of simply rehashing whether Tyrion’s Targaryen prince dreams, his being the only POV to interact with Jon, Dany and Aegon, and the rest of the laundry list of clues in the OP can be accepted as "lineage foreshadowing" or not. Although I expect some of that will have to be discussed in order to get to the bottom of how Tyrion’s mother dying during his birth (as with Dany’s and Jon’s) is purely a coincidence that will only ever be “paid off” by Tywin’s hatred of him, but not by Tyrion being able to “join the ranks” of the other two heads (assuming they are indeed Jon and Dany).

Again, all stances are welcome, and I’m hoping to focus more on the “good storytelling” element than the “logistics," as both sides of the debate have enough merit that we should be able to move past some of the "logistics" into new, compelling territory that just might sway a handful of readers one way or the other.

[Kienn]

My money is on Tyrion being Lannister, with a Targ grandmother.

There are plenty of hints that all 3 Lannisters have Targ traits. I guess you can use the Plumm theory as well but I prefer the simpler explanation that Joanna was 1/2 Targ.

Tywin was ambitious, he wanted to further his house - so why would he marry a cousin when he could marry the daughter of another great lord, or a strong bannerman to solidify his own realm after slaughtering the Reynes and Tarbecks?

Because his cousin was half Targ, so a daughter with her could be queen! Just as he made sure Cersei was in the end. I think this does the best job explaining all of Joanna's kids.

[Jasta11]

Narratively, I think it would be pretty useless. I mean, GRRM can plays the secret Targ card only so much before it breaks suspension of disbelief. Aegon (fake or not)? Fine, kinda out of nowhere but it does advance the story and explain why Varys/Illyrio do their thing. Jon, OK, the theory has sound grounding in the text and would serve the story, what with the Azor Azhai Reborn theory and all that stuff, as well as explaining why Ned did what he did. What does Tyrion being a Targaryen bring to the story? He can maybe ride dragons, 'kay but The Princess And The Queen implies that Targaryen blood is not a requirement for such thing. So what's the point then? GRRM doesn't throw around twists because he wants to shock the audience and go ''aha, gotcha!''. It all serves a narrative purpose. And I completely fail to see what sort of narrative use Tyrion being a Targaryen would bring.

That's of course without mentioning the logistical difficulties of Tyrion 1) actually being a secret Targ and 2) knowing about it somehow. It seems like Martin will have to jump through a lot of narrative loopholes just to deliver a pretty lame twist, and I think he's better than that. And finally, the theory doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of in-text backing as, say, R + L = J. All I see is turns of phrase sometimes taken out of context, fairly superfluous comparisons to character X or Y, and Barristan's line about ''liberties'' which can mean anything from Aerys taking a pervy look at Tywin's wife to chaining her in his dungeons and raping her 24/7.

[Slayer of Lies]

1) I personally don't believe that R+L=J.

2) Using other, unverified, theories in support of this one makes your reasoning very weak. If either plays out the way the books have directly laid out this point falls apart completely.

Fair enough. There are a great many things that can occur in TWOW or ADOS that will apparently make a great many readers unhappy. If Tyrion is "officially confirmed" as either a Lannister or a Targ, for example, that's one thing, where if Jon is Ned's son, then I have no idea what these books are about. Which is fine too, I suppose. I'm up for surprises, within reason, and GRRM is a great author.

If Aegon is proven fake via being a Blackfyre then he can still easily qualify as a dragon. Far more easily than either Jon or Tyrion in fact.

And of course that's assuming that Rhaegar is correct in this third attempt at interpreting a prophecy that may not be a real prophecy, let alone accurate.

Aegon can indeed be one of the heads of the dragon, although I feel like I'll enjoy that outcome less. Between being "introduced late" and having so much apparent "false dragon" foreshadowing around him, it just doesn't fit as neatly for me.

Isn't this a better argument against Tyrion? After all, Tyrion merely has Targaryean blood, Aegon is a Blackfyre (potentially) and thus a dragon.

My stake isn't on "one or two drops" of Targ blood. It's either in A+J=T or something much closer to his direct parentage.

And that's another problem I have with these sorts of theories, they marginalize significant characters. We are given those POVs for a reason, because something they tell or show us is important to the story being told here. ASOIAF isn't Jon, Dany and TYrion's story; if it was they were the only people we'd see it through. It's everyone's story, that's why we follow them.

I agree. Even assuming Jon, Dany and Tryion are the three heads of the dragon, everyone else (who "gets to live" and who provides a window into events anywhere in the world) has an opportunity to come off equally as important and compelling within the overall story. It's just that Jon, Dany and Tyrion would happen to share a "unique bond" that the other characters wouldn't that would pay off some foreshadowing and prophetic statements put in place, but that wouldn't be for "better or for worse," necessarily. Just different POVs, different arcs. GRRM's telling of upcoming events - for all characters - is sure to be some of the most engaging stuff I've ever read, however it plays out.

If Jon has a mom he can go to her and find acceptance, he doesn't need the Wall and his story goes nowhere. If Dany has a mom Viserys can't mistreat her and prostitute her and her story goes nowhere. If Tyrion has a mom a) Cersei can't blame him for her death, b: Tywin can't mistreat him as much, c) he has a loving influence in his life; his basic character is fundamentally altered.

Fair enough. But what if there's more to it than that? What if it's meant to be taken as a rather simple, blatant clue that these characters - early on - have something in common which will later be paid off by them having to "work together" (in some unknown capacity) to defeat the Others, or a series of other important endgame events? Perhaps that sounds a little cheesy so some, but it is a fantasy novel with dragons and magic swords in it, and it's being written by someone inspired to write fantasy by authors like Tad Williams, whose Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series has a very

"Jon Snow is the hero" style ending.

But perhaps your explanation is enough for many readers, and perhaps that's far as GRRM plans to take it. But I'm personally hoping for a more significant tie-in than that.

[mushroomshirt]

Slayer, your OPs are always thought provoking. Thank you for another well-thought out topic.

I was about to post when I read this excellent post quoted below:

I think he is a Lannister. I agree with many that if he were a Targ, his and Tywin's relationship and hostility towards each other would be less interesting and less tragic and &#!@ed up. The same goes for Tyrion and his siblings' relationships. The tension and personal hatred/grudges would ultimately be less meaningful and powerful to the reader. The dynamic and events between Tywin and his children are some of the best written and interesting arcs in the books, imo. Tyrion got Tywin's cunning, Cercei got his ruthlessness, and Jaime got his talent on the battlefield, all with devastating side effects...

Tywin messed his kids up. Real bad. Even after his death, his influence remains. Tyrion constantly asking himself where whores go and even talking to Tywin in his head, Cercei always comparing herself to him and how he was more respected in KL after Joff's death, also still trying to prove to him that she is the best of his children, even after he's dead. Jaime's is a different, but just as emotionally scarring story. He was basically a chess piece in a game between Aerys and Tywin, and since then has been fighting demons regarding his honor and his "so many oaths" because of the situation he was put in. Also, he, unlike his siblings, wasn't constantly trying to prove his worth to Tywin because he was his favorite. Instead, he's been trying to prove to himself that his actions have been justified and/or honorable. The biggest similarity I saw between him and Tywin was their mutual feeling of superiority. Fortunately for him, he lost those feelings when he lost his hand.

Basically, I'm saying this is all very emotional and powerful stuff, especially in Tyrion's case, being basically despised by Tywin and also extremely influenced by him. I would feel robbed if it turned out his complex and heartbreaking relationships between him and his father and siblings were all for nothing.

Bottom line: I think he is a Lannister. I think Tywin was his father, and I think any other scenario would lesson the value and tragedy of the Lannister family arc, which, at its core, is about Tywin loving the name of his House more than the actual people in it, resulting in screwing up his children and eventually getting himself killed, leaving his entire House in jeopardy. The repercussions of his actions are ongoing, especially because of Cercei. Tyrion and Jaime seem to be released from some of his negative influence, but at this point, so much damage has been done already.

Sorry to go off topic a little regarding his siblings, but it's all connected in my opinion. I want him to be a Lannister because of his relationships with them just as much, that's all.

I think this nicely answers the question posed in the OP about why Tyrion being a Lannister tells a better story. I would like to also add Jaime's chapter in AFFC where he talks with Genna:

Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

As Jon Dovahkiin Snow says, much is made of the Lannister family dynamics. A big source of tragedy is that Tywin and Tyrion are very alike, yet Tywin does not choose to recognize this. Much of this would be lost if it turns out that Tyrion is not Tywin's son at all.

[TheWanderer]

tyrion would be evidence of joanna's unfaithfulness, if this theory is accurate. when tywin says that tyrion killed joanna, it's possible that what tywin meant was tyrion's existence killed who tywin saw her as; a faithful, loving wife (whether it was rape or by love, im sure joanna kept the scenario a secret anyway)

But Tywin tried to prove that Tyrion wasn't his, so that he could disown him and remove that 'disgrace' from his House. If Tywin knew Tyrion wasn't his with enough certainty to murder his beloved wife, why in the name of all the gods wouldn't he kill or disown Tyrion? Indeed Joanna's death is the only reason I believe Tywin didn't kill Tyrion at birth.

And while Tyrion can be a “window” into one or several of these stories/chapters, or even affect events directly as a non-dragon-riding Lannister, it seems to me there’d be a higher payoff value to a “change of heart” (possibly driven by a “change” of lineage) that spurred on a motivation to “save Westeros” out of the onus of “prophetic necessity” and/or “bloodright,” as opposed to so many potential alternatives for his character. But that’s just, like, my opinion, man.

I would see Tyrion deciding to save Westeros out of prophetic necessity or bloodright to be a drastic, perhaps shark-jumpingly so, change in his character. Tyrion doesn't care about Houses, he doesn't care about destiny and he doesn't care about Westeros.

the fact that he’s a POV (where Aegon isn’t),

Hasn't Martin stated that we'll never have a King POV? Aegon has crowned himself king, ergo no POV.

his knowledge of dragons (which seemingly no living character can rival),

Aside from any Maester whose read the couple books he has. Arianne and presumably Doran also have access to those books. Tyrion is simply the only POV character we've had with access to that knowledge, just like he is our only POV character with access to lots of the knowledge he has.

identities/characters being consistent with the symbolism of the placement of the dragon eggs at Drogo’s funeral pyre dating all the way back to AGOT, if that can also be accepted as foreshadowing.

This is a post hoc argument. The placement of the eggs doesn't suggest anything unless you go looking for it to support something.

I struggle with his “endgame value” as a Lannister.

Maybe try not looking at it from an endgame perspective? Look at what Tyrion brings and has brought to the table already, see if his character has enough value to merit inclusion on that alone.

My stake isn't on "one or two drops" of Targ blood. It's either in A+J=T or something much closer to his direct parentage.

Doesn't matter how much blood he has, he's not a Targaryean and is thus difficult to call a dragon.

It's just that Jon, Dany and Tyrion would happen to share a "unique bond" that the other characters wouldn't that would pay off some foreshadowing and prophetic statements put in place, but that wouldn't be for "better or for worse," necessarily.

Well you've basically been suggesting that Tyrion's character isn't 'worthy' of inclusion in the story if he isn't a Targaryean. To me that sounds like you're saying "This is the Targaryean's story and everybody else is just filling it out". Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, if that's the case I apologize.

Fair enough. But what if there's more to it than that? What if it's meant to be taken as a rather simple, blatant clue that these characters - early on - have something in common which will later be paid off by them having to "work together" (in some unknown capacity) to defeat the Others, or a series of other important endgame events?

1) Just because it links the characters thematically, and it does, doesn't mean it links the characters by blood.

2) Just because the characters become linked narratively doesn't mean they're linked by blood.

In short, having these things in common and even working together doesn't necessitate and isn't really advantaged by being semi-siblings.

[the andorran]

First off, I much prefer this kind of discussion to hashing and rehashing the same details trying to prove our points, so thanks for starting it. :)

As for me, there are a lot of reasons I believe that Tyrion is a Lannister. A lot of it has to do with the themes of his arc. Family is such an important idea in all of the Lannisters' story lines. (Less so for Jaime.) Tywin values the family legacy above all, to the detriment of his actual family members. The only people Cersei loves are family, people she sees as being, in some way, extensions of herself. Tyrion occupies an awkward position of being included in this very powerful group, by right of blood, yet more or less being rejected by it on a personal level. His being a Lannister is both an enormous blessing and a curse. It brought him wealth and power and abuse at Tywin's hands. He, Cersei, and Tywin are often in conflict with one another and have so many resentments, but what ties them together is blood.

If Tyrion is not Tywin's son, I just don't know what to make of any of this. What does the relationship between a Tyrion and Tywin mean if they are not, biologically, father and son? Of course, I'm firmly of the belief that if R+L=J, Jon will still believe himself to be Ned's son in the important ways. But the difference here is that Ned raised Jon with love, he taught him the values that he holds dear, he shaped Jon into the person that he is, for the better.

By contrast, part of what is so poignant about the Tyrion/Tywin relationship is that Tywin failed in his duties as a parent. He failed to provide Tyrion with love and real support and abused him consistently throughout his life. There was an obligation he took on when helping to bring him into the world. If Tywin didn't really have that obligation, if he was raising another man's son, then some of the tragedy is lost. Of course Tywin treated Tyrion like crap, he wasn't his.

Basically, to my mind, the Starks, even if we found out none of them are related to each other in future books, would still be family because they are bound together by love. The Lannisters, whatever their personal feelings for each other, are bound by blood.

I also think that the 'need a third Targ for the three heads of the dragon' thing relies on a very literal reading of the prophecy, and I feel like we'll see something more unexpected. What that is, I couldn't say, but I'm sure GRRM will surprise us.

[The Mad Wolf]

It's awesome how y'all come up with these theories. Keep up the good work!

[Hrafntýr]

Thanks, OP, for trying to direct the conversation toward "good storytelling" arguments about Tyrion's parentage, which ought to be much more interesting than rehashing the same tired "proofs" of one side or the other.

First, I'll say that I'm not 100% convinced one way or the other, though I lean Lannister.

Personally, I love Tyrion's ongoing struggle to situate himself in relation to his family, i.e. to Tywin, Cersei and Jaime. I understand the points made above that this wouldn't disappear even if he were to discover that Tywin is not his biological father, in the manner of Jon or Theon in relation to Ned as "real" father even though their biological fathers might not be Ned. But for me, one of the most interesting elements of GRRM's storytelling is guessing where he's going to come down, in the end, on matters of what might simplistically be called "nature vs. nurture." There are obviously a whole lot of "genetic" traits being passed along in Planetos: the Starks are Wargs, the Targs have the dragonbond, Lannisters are clever, along with more conventional genetics like hair and eye color etc. This is very common in fantasy writing. It's also pretty common in monarchist polemics: kings (and queens) really are different from you and me, they're better than you and me. Those Targs really do deserve more than anyone else to sit the Iron Throne, just look at their awesomeness, not to mention their crazy hyper-Aryan good looks. I'll confess to being sometimes uncomfortable with this as a reader: wouldn't it be the very best thing in the world to be a Targ? Since Tyrion is so awesome, doesn't he somehow deserve to have that awesomeness "rewarded" by being named a Targ? Tyrion dreamed of dragons as a boy, I bet lots of little boys (and girls) in Westeros did and do, cause man are they cool! But for me, part of the interest in Tyrion is in his struggle to come to terms with who he is, something he's not yet managed to do. He's got all this conflict: he knows that he's benefitted tremendously from being a Lannister (all that money, enough to keep him in good food and drink and lots of whores, to let him buy himself out of trouble), and I think that he feels a certain amount of guilt about this, because part of him despises the ways in which his family has come by their wealth and power. But then another part of him knows that he's got (through nature? nurture? (I know, "nurture" seems a funny word to use with respect to an upbringing by Tywin!)) the gifts of his family, that he can see his way to game any situation that presents itself to him, he instantly grasps any situation. And although he in part hates himself for it, he wanted his father's approval. In part because he is a "half-man," he could never easily step into the "normal" path of a Lannister, in the manner that Cersei and Jaime could. In part, it's Tyrion's uneasy situation, actually being a Lannister but not being easily to come to terms with that fact, that find so compelling about him as a character. Were he to discover he were a Targ, it would make a difference, in a manner unlike the case of Jon. It's one of the classic fantasies of the unhappy child, that he or she will discover that the parents with whom he or she has troubled relations are not really his or her parents. "AH, this explains everything!" I'd be disappointed, because then Tyrion really wouldn't need to sort out his relationship to Tywin, Cersei or Jaime (though I realize others might disagree, i.e. might argue that his "issues" with them wouldn't disappear).

Along a totally unrelated line of thought: I've never been wholly convinced that the "three heads of the dragon" needs to be three separate individuals, as I think it perfectly possible that Rheagar misinterpreted the prophecy. This would obviate the line of reasoning that goes: "Well, someone besides Jon and Dany needs to be a Targ, and Tyrion is the best possible candidate."

ETA: Hah, andorran, we seem to be thinking along many of the same lines, and at the same time!

[Talking Hodor]

Tyrion's lineage is irrelevant. Who's going to confirm that he's a bastard son of Aerys? Nobody that could possibly know that is alive anymore. Unless the Maesters invent DNA testing really quickly, Tyrion and everybody else are going to go to their graves assuming Tyrion is a Lannister.