R+L=J v 75

[Stubby]

PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS. THANK YOU.

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v 73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v 74" (thread seventy-four)

[StarkDragon]

Alright, you all know R+L=J, try this one on for size:

F+Ttd=L, or in the Westeros universe, W+CotF=B.

[horizon]

R + L = J + fA

possible?

From Tower of the Hand:

Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur Dayne until he was killed in the fighting. There, perhaps Eddard and Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon's mother, to protect Jon. Also, Ashara kills herself (for the possible reasons, see above).

What if there were two kids. Jon and fAegon. Ashara does not kill herself as some theories say she is the septon with fAegon... yes, Ashara and fAegon dissapeared from then on and Eddard went with Jon.

Keeping the kids apart would mean better hiding (aka Luke & Leia ;) ).

[corbon]

What if there were two kids. Jon and fAegon. Ashara does not kill herself as some theories say she is the septon with fAegon... yes, Ashara and fAegon dissapeared from then on and Eddard went with Jon.

Aegon is at least a year older than Jon.

Tyrion estimates fAegon's age as being a couple of years younger than he should be (as Aegon), which helps with the twins theory. However Tyrion also estimates Jon's age as a couple of years younger than he was, which partly neuters his fAegon guess' value to the theory. Tyrion is just bad at guessing ages.

The biggest problem with the twins theory is that it requires Jon Connington to be dufus enough to think a 3 year old is a precocious 5 year old when he first encounters fAegon. This is supposedly the child of Rhaegar after all, precocious enough that it was joked his mother ate candles and books for him to read from within the womb, or something like that, and who awed the Maesters of Oldtown with his wit as a child.

A smaller problem is the relative lack of twins in the Targ (or Stark) history. You'd think if hidden twins were a major plot point GRRM would have put more twins in one of the family histories.

[Ser Creighton]

Wow number 75 is off to a grand start.

[Ser Creighton]

No, no, no unwarranted movie reference, and just wrong. Both actors parts and you had to mix in a bad pun to try and make a connection? You can't be the action and the reaction, it's sloppy. It doesn't even make sense. Come on be better than that, inside voice next time.

"If you obey all the rules you miss all the fun."

"You have to observe all the rules of the game. Then you have to play better than everyone else." Even tied it to Game of thrones.

"There are no rules, when your trying to accomplish something."

"Integrity has no need of rules."

"The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions."

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."

See it's not so hard. I am sure you have been dying to squeeze in that scene from Happy Gilmore at some point. But the context is wrong, and you just butchered the delivery.

You know if you made up the ideas, they are probably not supported in the text as you made them up, just sayin.

ETA. Now come on what happen to that goofy post? Now my post makes no sense, thanks alot.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

"Turn, Snow, and die." (Qhorin's famous last words)

eta: ". . . sharp,"

If I look back I am lost. (Dany meme from AGoT 68 onwards until ADwD 71)

[stateofdissipation]

"Turn, Snow, and die." (Qhorin's famous last words)

eta: ". . . sharp,"

If I look back I am lost. (Dany meme from AGoT 68 onwards until ADwD 71)

Lovely parallel.can you think of any others?

I recall an earlier post from 74 with Selmy being called a white shadow and Jon's direwolf Ghost.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Lovely parallel.can you think of any others?

I recall an earlier post from 74 with Selmy being called a white shadow and Jon's direwolf Ghost.

This is the one, by @Ser Creighton, who is a much sharper knife at this :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon is at least a year older than Jon.

Tyrion estimates fAegon's age as being a couple of years younger than he should be (as Aegon), which helps with the twins theory. However Tyrion also estimates Jon's age as a couple of years younger than he was, which partly neuters his fAegon guess' value to the theory. Tyrion is just bad at guessing ages.

The biggest problem with the twins theory is that it requires Jon Connington to be dufus enough to think a 3 year old is a precocious 5 year old when he first encounters fAegon. This is supposedly the child of Rhaegar after all, precocious enough that it was joked his mother ate candles and books for him to read from within the womb, or something like that, and who awed the Maesters of Oldtown with his wit as a child.

A smaller problem is the relative lack of twins in the Targ (or Stark) history. You'd think if hidden twins were a major plot point GRRM would have put more twins in one of the family histories.

Yes, if Aegon is really Aegon, than Tyrion guesses the ages of both of Rhaegar's sons too young by two years. I found that an interesting observation.

There are some twins in the family tree of the Targaryens (Jaehaera and Jaehaerys, Baela and Rhaena), but not for the last few generations.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, if Aegon is really Aegon, than Tyrion guesses the ages of both of Rhaegar's sons too young by two years. I found that an interesting observation.

There are some twins in the family tree of the Targaryens (Jaehaera and Jaehaerys, Baela and Rhaena), but not for the last few generations.

We talked about twins in v66 after TPatQ came out. Not only those two sets, but Daemon Blackfyre's boys and Rhaegel's sons.

Also I think we discussed some speculative ones, like Valar's sons and Laena/Laenor (based solely on names I think?)

And of course there are any number of other pairs that could turn out that way ;)

eta- added link

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We talked about twins in v66 after TPatQ came out. Not only those two sets, but Daemon Blackfyre's boys and Rhaegel's sons.

Also I think we discussed some speculative ones, like Valar's sons and Laena/Laenor (based solely on names I think?)

And of course there are any number of other pairs that could turn out that way ;)

Yes, I could vaguely remember such a discussion :P though I believe I was part of the twins discussion on the princess and queen thread itself...

Laenor and Laena were not twins. GRRM has confirmed that Laena was one year older than Laenor.

But there are a few twins in the Targaryen family, that much we know. I don't know, however, in which degree having twins is hereditary.

But than again, having twins could also be a random event.

Genetically, it would be possible that Jon and Aegon are twins. Looking at their ages, though, it's impossible, dice Aegon was roughly 14 months old when Jon was born.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Could it be that I read yesterday that Leana and Leanor were NOT twins, but born one year apart? I think it was in reply to perhaps Lord Varys' post on George's LJ blog.

Edit: Thought so when I saw the site mention an update while I was typing away: :ninja:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, I could vaguely remember such a discussion :P though I believe I was part of the twins discussion on the princess and queen thread itself...

Laenor and Laena were not twins. GRRM has confirmed that Laena was one year older than Laenor.

But there are a few twins in the Targaryen family, that much we know. I don't know, however, in which degree having twins is hereditary.

But than again, having twins could also be a random event.

Genetically, it would be possible that Jon and Aegon are twins. Looking at their ages, though, it's impossible, dice Aegon was roughly 14 months old when Jon was born.

Four sets of confirmed twins, and some other interesting possibilities (if you read linked discussion ;)

Identical twins are a one off (genetic mutation) Fraternal twins can run in families as they are caused by a woman producing more than one egg per cycle, a condition that can be, though is not always, hereditary. They can also be a random event, though a pattern of numerous sets in one family (even over several generations) probably indicates genetics at work. Ftr, the normal rate of twin births (in the US, pre fertility treatment boom) is 18 per 1000. The Targs seem to be exceeding that by a bit ;)

[horizon]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/360936.html?thread=18794728#t18794728

The quote about Laena & Laenor.

[corbon]

There are some twins in the family tree of the Targaryens (Jaehaera and Jaehaerys, Baela and Rhaena), but not for the last few generations.

Four sets of confirmed twins, and some other interesting possibilities (if you read linked discussion ;)

Ahh, thank you both. I thought there was only 1 set. A slight improvement in the theory's probability then, though I'd still call it very weak.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ahh, thank you both. I thought there was only 1 set. A slight improvement in the theory's probability then, though I'd still call it very weak.

Well, yes and to be clear-- I don't support that particular theory. If indeed I thought Jon did have a twin, I'd look more closely at one of the young ladies in story that we know to be approximately of an age with him ;)

[MtnLion]

@corbon It would not be polite to lay anything in a woman's lap, even by today's standards. Rhaegar had options:

1. Let Lyanna pluck it from the end of the lance
   
2. Let one of her friends pluck it from the end of the lance
   
3. Lay the crown at her feet (I like this one myself)
   

[Han Snow]

Well, yes and to be clear-- I don't support that particular theory. If indeed I thought Jon did have a twin, I'd look more closely at one of the young ladies in story that we know to be approximately of an age with him ;)

I really can't think of a single candidate... And hopefully this theory never sees the light of day in the actual books.

[Ser Creighton]

I really can't think of a single candidate... And hopefully this theory never sees the light of day in the actual books.

It won't Martin doesn't spell everything out for readers but he is always leaving clues for us. For himself to he has to explain the story. Can anyone find any clues about a twin from the tower? Ned never thinks of anything like that. Why would Ashara take on that duty, and why would she go to Varys and the Cheese monger if she is helping Ned. It's not like he wouldn't hook her up. Ned is hyper protective of Jons past, I can't see him letting one of Lyannas kids out of his site, then never once think about the child.

Most text evidence points to Aegon being fake, I can't find anything that points to twins with him. Personally I get the idea, but it always seems they are trying to prove what happened to Ashara, not discover if their was a twin at the Tower. Septa Lemore is a woman we don't know her past, Ashara is a woman and she is presumed dead. They are the same. Even if it's true about her, we still get no evidence for a twin. If your going to do a twin why not triplets? Yeah Howland has one kid, Ashara took another and Ned took Jon. They drew straws to see who got a baby. I have no evidence for this but those 3 people are in the book, 2 of them vanished and one became a recluse, the dragon has 3 heads, and Howland used hypnosis to make Ned forget it all.

I am tired of the twins theory, it's all about the triplets now. Or maybe they were triplets and then the other two absorbed the weakest one.