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Stubby

R+L=J v 75

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This is the one, by @Ser Creighton, who is a much sharper knife at this :)

Ok I will do a couple more but only because compliments work on me, I am that easy. This is not really the place for it though.

When your looking at Jon and Dany I think it's important to pick up on the obscure and the obvious. It seems that if one has an obvious symbolism or parallel the others is obscured. Dany is the obvious Targaryen, Jon is the obscure or hidden Targaryen. Jon is clearly dealing with the Undead with the Wights, Dany has an obscure battle going on with the Undying. The two seem to flip back and fourth like this.

So look at the two houses. This not so much about Jon and Dany but the two houses.

Targaryen the royal house was deposed by house Baratheon the usurper, then betrayed by Tywin who had family members slaughtered. It's the obvious.

House Stark, a royal house itself Robb was a king. Deposed not by the Lannisters, but by a Baratheon, maybe in name only but still that was Joffs last name and Joff was usurping the throne. The name Baratheon was used to usurp the throne. Tywin which is heavily hinted at organized the betrayal of the Starks. The red wedding.

One was an obvious rebellion, with the Baratheons usurping the throne. The other was an obscure usurping of the throne by a supposed Baratheon.

Both times the Lannisters were the final blow, one obvious and one obscure.

Ok that was the last one.

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Ok I will do a couple more but only because compliments work on me, I am that easy. This is not really the place for it though.

Let's go to that other place!

Ok that was the last one.

Oh no!

Nice one!

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Ahh, thank you both. I thought there was only 1 set. A slight improvement in the theory's probability then, though I'd still call it very weak.

No problem. Though I personally doubt Jon has a twin walking around somewhere though...

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Isn't it really confirmed that Aegon was replaced with another child before Clegane arrived though? Plus it'd mean Aegon shares Stark features too.

Edit: first time in this thread.

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Isn't it really confirmed that Aegon was replaced with another child before Clegane arrived though? Plus it'd mean Aegon shares Stark features too.

I pretty much think at least Jon Connington thinks so and he was a close friend to Rhaegar. However, Jon was exiled after the battle of the bells and when he got back to Aegon isn't given. Fraternal twins would not necessarily have any more similar features than any other siblings. To look at the differences between siblings think Sansa and Arya.

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Isn't it really confirmed that Aegon was replaced with another child before Clegane arrived though? Plus it'd mean Aegon shares Stark features too.

Edit: first time in this thread.

Which features are you talking about, if I might ask? :)

Aegon tells Tyrion the tale. That's all we got.

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Isn't it really confirmed that Aegon was replaced with another child before Clegane arrived though? Plus it'd mean Aegon shares Stark features too.

Edit: first time in this thread.

There are entire threads based on this discussion, but it seems to have been by and large debunked. Though no conformation, so if you want to hang onto it, hang onto it. I am a big proponent of actually investigating theories. Ideas are great but they are not all gems, sometimes it's better to get as much text support as possible. It won't always confirm something or it could be wrong, but it tends to let you know if you are heading in the right direction. It is also is easier to analyze text evidence than an idea, ideas without support tend to create circular debates which go nowhere. At some point your just coming up with ideas to make something you want to happen, happen. "What if" tends to be a popular phrase "but what if such and such happened." You end up with these exercises in imagination rather than a debate about the book. And nothing wrong with that, you can do whole threads on what if. It's just not going to give you any answers, or point you in a direction right or wrong. But they can be fun and enlightening.

Personally I say until it is confirmed one way or another it stays on the table. But how much debate you can have on the text is going to be limited if there is not much there and your just applying supposition and making theoretical leaps.

The main counter point to Varys claim about Aegon, is the Mummers dragon. Also the story he tells does not make much sense. The symbolism of the gold company, the statement of a fake dragon. The twins thing is just well... lets see some real text support on it.

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Apparently there is a dragon under every bush, so Dany has her work cut out for her to figure out who the faux dragon is.

Viserys was the mumner's dragon. He was a puppet of Illyrio and Viserys though he did not know it. Dany already named him so: He was no dragon, Fire cannot kill a dragon.

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Viserys was the mumner's dragon. He was a puppet of Illyrio and Viserys though he did not know it. Dany already named him so: He was no dragon, Fire cannot kill a dragon.

Fire can kill dragons, and fire has killed dragons, both human and beast.

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Fire can kill dragons, and fire has killed dragons, both human and beast.

Which proves (going back to a thought from the previous thread) that Dany has quite a learning curve ahead of her ;)

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Which proves (going back to a thought from the previous thread) that Dany has quite a learning curve ahead of her ;)

Or she becomes a toast.

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Viserys was the mumner's dragon. He was a puppet of Illyrio and Viserys though he did not know it. Dany already named him so: He was no dragon, Fire cannot kill a dragon.

Good lord, :shocked: I hope they didn't bet all the dice on one throw with Viserys.

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Im bringing in this post of mine from another thread.

An interesting passage from Moqorro, on the Fourteen Flames of Valyria, as He and Tyrion look on the red sky above. "Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

The warning of looking too deeply at the Valyrian fires reminds of this passage from Bran. ""North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, then he cried out, afraid..."

These passages are both about looking beyond and seeing the power of ice and fire. Moqorro says is not wise. Bran did it though, and it made him afraid, yet resolute.

And following from that... Moqorro thinks the Valyrian fires are 'gods own wrath'. He is on his way to meet Dany, and in Volantis there is Benero and then other people who believe she is AAR and coming to free them from slavery. The Red Priest sees her as a part of their faith, but will Dany see it that way? If Dany somehow gets a glimpse into the 'Heart of Fire', what will she do? I can see her pushing away from R'hllor fanaticism. The bringing of never ending Summer and death bending its knee is, in a way opposite, yet similar and just as bad as never ending Winter. So Dany may need to stamp out the fire before it spreads too far.

So I think Dany will not have much time on her hands to worry about Jon Snow.

My bad. Straying from RLJ but, it does concern J.

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Daenerys isn't even close to Westeros for now, and it might take her the next full book to get there (and then she's actually moved quite a bit as I'm rereading Dany's Storm bits in preparation for Dance, and there's only 6 of hers), so if Dany and Jon ever meet it'll be really late into book 7 or even earlier in book 8, I think.


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Which proves (going back to a thought from the previous thread) that Dany has quite a learning curve ahead of her ;)

And her embrace of fire and blood easily can lead to her downfall.

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Good lord, :shocked: I hope they didn't bet all the dice on one throw with Viserys.

well I dont think they did. He was just the one they really could control. The others seem to have minds of their own.

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Which features are you talking about, if I might ask? :)

Aegon tells Tyrion the tale. That's all we got.

Facial features, more specifically. I know there are differences between Ayra/Jon than to Sansa/Robb who take after Cat, but surely if Aegon was half stark, he'd have that appearance.

There are entire threads based on this discussion, but it seems to have been by and large debunked. Though no conformation, so if you want to hang onto it, hang onto it. I am a big proponent of actually investigating theories. Ideas are great but they are not all gems, sometimes it's better to get as much text support as possible. It won't always confirm something or it could be wrong, but it tends to let you know if you are heading in the right direction. It is also is easier to analyze text evidence than an idea, ideas without support tend to create circular debates which go nowhere. At some point your just coming up with ideas to make something you want to happen, happen. "What if" tends to be a popular phrase "but what if such and such happened." You end up with these exercises in imagination rather than a debate about the book. And nothing wrong with that, you can do whole threads on what if. It's just not going to give you any answers, or point you in a direction right or wrong. But they can be fun and enlightening.

Personally I say until it is confirmed one way or another it stays on the table. But how much debate you can have on the text is going to be limited if there is not much there and your just applying supposition and making theoretical leaps.

The main counter point to Varys claim about Aegon, is the Mummers dragon. Also the story he tells does not make much sense. The symbolism of the gold company, the statement of a fake dragon. The twins thing is just well... lets see some real text support on it.

I get you, it's nice to theorise. I think maybe we just dig too far into this sometimes and go a bit overboard. Only Martin knows.

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Facial features, more specifically. I know there are differences between Ayra/Jon than to Sansa/Robb who take after Cat, but surely if Aegon was half stark, he'd have that appearance.

I get you, it's nice to theorise. I think maybe we just dig too far into this sometimes and go a bit overboard. Only Martin knows.

It's actually very possible for Aegon to look almost nothing like one parent.

Robb looked like Catelyn, until after he got angry once: that's when Cat saw something of Ned in his face for the first time, IIRC.

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Or she becomes a toast.

Apparently Dany is not the only one that wants a little fire and blood. Or in your case fire and Valyrian rye.

I will take bets on it thought. I found a few really interesting parallels today that I am saving for a thread. Also cleaned up what I had written changed some things around found some more quotes that furthered the parallels and symbolism, it's gotten pretty tight.

I might make it a thread, though no theory, mostly just text comparisons. Though I have to say there is one rather large obscure and obvious parallel sitting right there. Tons of symbolism and direct connections. Still putting all the quotes together for it.

I am not really into the Jon/ Dany forum feud. I like them both, I would rather just look at the text than try and guess who or what either will become in the future. I may not get the answers I want but at least it can be interesting.

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