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sod: Marriage is not a legal process but a religous (sic) one.



How wrong can you be? Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs, especially among the nobility. That is the reason that we are discussing marriage, to determine Jon's legal rights as a legitimate heir.



Legitimate: conforming to the law or to rules.

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sod: Marriage is not a legal process but a religous (sic) one.

How wrong can you be? Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs, especially among the nobility. That is the reason that we are discussing marriage, to determine Jon's legal rights as a legitimate heir.

Legitimate: conforming to the law or to rules.

:agree:

The point our dear troll is forgetting is that Jon was born legitimate, but he had the life of a bastard forced upon him for his own safety. So in essence, Jon Targaryen was born at the ToJ, but when Ned took the baby in, he became Jon Snow. When the stabbing occurred at the ADWD, Jon Snow died, and Jon Targaryen shall be reborn.

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2. A. and B It is very lovely that you mentioned little birds everywhere in the red keep. You might even cite text that it was the case under Robert. However, to assume the same was true under Aerys would be a poor assumption. We are given that Aerys knew of the hidden passages in the Red Keep and Robert did not. It was home to the Targs and a residence of the Baratheons.

C, Relies on A and B to be true and adds the additional assumption that Varys had perect knowledge to make the position relevant. Vary's actions based on what was possibly not known do not necessarily include possible unknowns.

D, As there are not procedures for annulment, the consequences would be as well.

E.and F Lacking evidence that he acted upon the knowledge, does not imply there was nothing to know. It is a good case for Varys did not know though.

G, Again showing what somebody does not know is not the same thing as showing there is nothing to know.

H. You made up the king has no secrets from the KG. You also made up the king presents his decrees to the kingsguard. Then you claim thar your invention proves your conclusion.

And where is it stated that Aerys knew the existence of the secret passages?

Ehm... Varys is presenting Aegon now... That is a fact, we've read it, in-book it has been discussed etc. A and B are not necessary for Varys to present Aegon....

Perhaps you should stop shopping people's posts into separate sentences. It seems to be confusing even you.

D does not even adress what I was talking about?

H I am making it up that the King has no secrets from his KG?

From Jaime in Feast

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They

And I did not say that the King presents decrees to his KG. I said:

Jaime was Aerys’ breathing shadow until the Sack. A King has no secrets from his KG. Had there been a decree, Jaime would have known about it.

Do you see the word present in there somewhere? Being someone's shadow means you're with them constantly. If Aerys signed a decree, or spoke a decree, Jaime would have been there.

5. A. agreed and B agreed so long as the king wishes him not to do so.

D, Lets see, i recall after skimming through the post initally. Nothing in the text prohibits it.. That is unfair. The answer is I do not know how it works. I know a royal decree can legitimize a bastard. It is all i am given in the text,

D is very simple. There is nothing to legitimize when there is no child.... How else are you supposed to know what you are going to legitimize? A boy? A girl? Twins? What is the name?

A King can declare a bastard legit... There needs to be an actual bastard for that.

6. A. I quite know where the source was. I am rather accustomed to intermittent spewing of author quotes. They are mostly incomplete and or out of context. One typing GRRM said or posting a link somehow believes that he has a stamp of authority. That is one school of thought. It is a school best left where it belongs: High School. (This is only valid if the quote is both valid and relevant) The Author is a wonderful source for information about the book. If he wishes to alter it he can republish. The author does not have a magic want to alter what he has done. The author can point you towards things in the text you might have missed. That is it

B. The book is the only source on the books. I do understand fan interest in all things Martin. However, nothing added after will change what has been done. You may have a superior ability to predict what will come next. That is wonderful. It still cant change what is done now

C. and D Those are great, I am not ripping on them or being harsh in any way.

E. The point was valid. The book is the author's intent. If he didn't get it right in there, he can write another.

F. I could have toned down the sarcasm. I do apologize for that. There was nothing to ask. There was plenty in the text you could have pointed to to make the same point. I was interested in what you have to say. If i cared for GRRM's opinion, I am quite capable of reading what he has done and has to say.

G. It was unfair when I used it earlier. It is unfair for you to use it now. There is nothing wrong with an honest, I don't know how Rhaegar married Lyanna. I can show possible ways. I can also show you why I think they were. You may find problems with some of the possibilities. You may not see the clues the way I do. However, If you listen to what I have to say and I listen to you, one or both of us might get something out of it.

First of all, if you know the source, why did you respond the way you did? That was unkind.

Second, you know the source, it has been GRRM. Somehow that is not enough for you.

Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. I don't see how I could be taking that the wrong way.

B That I point you to 4 novella's that we have, and a 5th on the way (perhaps you haven't noticed, but the publication date of the 5th has actually been announced?), suggests that I have superior knowledge? I do believe you are now reading words that I'm not typing...

Our sources are the books, the novella's, the interviews, the RPGs, the app, GRRM's statements on his blog (in answer to questions as well as just publications) and Ran's posts. Once it's been printed (books+novellas) it's finalized. Until then, it might change slightly. However, what the app contains is the information from the books, plus extra's that GRRM told the people who made the app. And IIRC, that all came from his notes.

7.

M. Ok. How would it have come out. As we have not established who knew what and where and where all loyalties are, to conclude discovery is inevitable is premature. Who would have had reason to know or care about what Rhaegar did before he died?

N. She was Aery's hostagte against Dornish treacery. Aerys did not trust Dorne.

O. It would also leave Elia and children in Aery's hands. As we do not know the policy on inheritence, Dorne could still have had their king to be.

Elia only became a hostage after the Trident, when Aerys became convinced that Lewyn Martell had betrayed Rhaegar.

Dorne would have reason to care about what Rhaegar did before he died, if it involved Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. And what Rhaegar was doing before he died, did involve them

13. A, niice statement of fact

B. Nice hypothetical... Here is another. Had they buried themselves in the sand Ned would have never known they were there. Had they gone south to Starfelll they could have gotten support. Unless they knew there were only 7 coming.

C. Would you like to add a within arms distance, within 50, 100, 500 yards of the king to the whole protect the king part of the vow. It would really help if you added the slightly further away than they were to the ToJ to help cement the deal. If Jon was king, could they have ridden and met them a mile away? or was it their vow to fight in the front yard. I am sorry for the sarcasm. but not enough to delete it. The premise the KG fights those they can is pretty solid. It also explains losing a few on the Trident with no king in sight.

D. ACCEPTED. so long as you accept it from Rhaegar's departure. Where was tihis duty when Aerys died?

B... What? And where would they have gotten that news? So you say that they didn't know Aegon was dead (news of three weeks or so old), but they did know that Ned was coming with 6 companions (news of a week and a half old?)? Nice hypothesis, but I don't buy it.

C Do you know the problem of meeting the enemy on a distance of a mile away? Someone could sneak past you, ride to the tower, and find it unprotected. BAM, baby dead.

O well, at least we road a mile ahead right? No, that's not how it works. But perhaps answering to this one in particular becomes easier when you formulate it in an actual sentence. Some words seem to be missing.

14. Read the passages with Thorne and Jon and look for hints. If you don't see any then you don't. I pointed a direction because i saw a few things there. Just like the other passages I referred to. Some you may see some you may not. I was hoping you might have something you had found.

So Thorne knows that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard?

No one knows... But Thorne does...

:dunno:

Also, I wanted to quote this one just for emphasize

sod: Marriage is not a legal process but a religous (sic) one.

How wrong can you be? Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs, especially among the nobility. That is the reason that we are discussing marriage, to determine Jon's legal rights as a legitimate heir.

Legitimate: conforming to the law or to rules.

Since you were argueing it, perhaps MtnLion's post makes it clear for you that you have it wrong.

Marriage is a legal process.

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sod: Marriage is not a legal process but a religous (sic) one.

How wrong can you be? Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs, especially among the nobility. That is the reason that we are discussing marriage, to determine Jon's legal rights as a legitimate heir.

Legitimate: conforming to the law or to rules.

How wrong can you be? Really there is a definition for legimate... good googling sparky. Legitimate: conforming to the law or rules.

and two down there is a definition for legitimate children. 3. born in wedlock or of legally married parents: legitimate children.

Did you actually think you were defining a legitimate court order?

The correct definition includes wedlock the state of marriage; matrimony.

Now how many marriages (in the Seven Kingdoms) did a King, a Lord or an officer of the law perform in all the books combied. Wait for it......NONE

How many marriages (in the Seven Kingdoms) were performed involving the exchange of vows in the presence of particular sacred witnesses: Wait for it.... ALL

Yah:

Marriage is not a legal process but a religious one. (In Westeros)

No.

Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs

You apparently did not think that one out too well. If you would wish to discuss it at least get it right.

The legal process of determining heirs in the Seven Kingdoms (North of the wall has their own processes) considers only children born to parents that are married to eachother as eligible. As an exception a Royal Decree can legitimize a bastard and make him or her eligible.

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Troll, you can't possibly be wrong, can you? Wait for it: No!



Marriage is legal when performed in accordance with laws. Heh. It can be performed by a justice of the peace. It can be performed by the captain at sea. It can just happen through common law (forgot to kick her out on our 6 year and eleven month anniversary). Or in the case of fArya by exchanging words in front of a tree, legally witnessed, of course. There are more tree weddings, too. But, think with half a brain and you will realize that the church of the seven does not decide who is the legitimate heir, otherwise it would be the high septon.


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How wrong can you be? Really there is a definition for legimate... good googling sparky. Legitimate: conforming to the law or rules.

and two down there is a definition for legitimate children. 3. born in wedlock or of legally married parents: legitimate children.

Did you actually think you were defining a legitimate court order?

The correct definition includes wedlock the state of marriage; matrimony.

Now how many marriages (in the Seven Kingdoms) did a King, a Lord or an officer of the law perform in all the books combied. Wait for it......NONE

How many marriages (in the Seven Kingdoms) were performed involving the exchange of vows in the presence of particular sacred witnesses: Wait for it.... ALL

Yah:

Marriage is not a legal process but a religious one. (In Westeros)

No.

Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs

You apparently did not think that one out too well. If you would wish to discuss it at least get it right.

The legal process of determining heirs in the Seven Kingdoms (North of the wall has their own processes) considers only children born to parents that are married to eachother as eligible. As an exception a Royal Decree can legitimize a bastard and make him or her eligible.

You have the audacity to complain about other people's thought processes but in the above have blatant contradictions in basic logic. You really are a piece of work, and that is in no way a compliment. You say the legal process of determining heirs (and who as a result has political power) considers only children born to parents that are married to each other, but somehow marriage is not political. :rolleyes: Whatever, there is no reasoning with people who have no interest in being reasoned with and just want to metaphorically hear themselves pontificate as if they have actual knowledge while demonstrating that knowledge is the one of the things they clearly lack.

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On a side note, it is Starfall, not Starfell. :leaving:

While technically there is legal president for fall what we really want to find out is if it was pushed. And it appears only Thorne knows what really happened, he does get around. Preparing my cross examination of Ser Thorne.

Ser Creighton. Ser Thorne did you order the star pushed out of the sky?

Mormont: You don't have to answer that question Thorne.

Ser Thorne: I'll answer the question. You want answers?

Ser Creighton: I think I am entitled to.

Ser Thorne: You want answers?

Ser Creighton: I want the truth!

Ser Thorne: You can't handle the truth!

Ser Creighton: Gasp

Ser Thorne: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with bows. Who's gonna do it? You Ser Creighton? You, Lord Snow? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the Star, and you curse the Watch. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the stars falling, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Ser Creighton: Did you order the star pushed?

Ser Thorne: I did the Job, I...

Ser Creighton: DID YOU ORDER THE LITTLE STAR PUSHED?

Ser Thorne: You're gods damn right I did.

Ser Creighton: So busted.

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1. And where is it stated that Aerys knew the existence of the secret passages?

2. Ehm... Varys is presenting Aegon now... That is a fact, we've read it, in-book it has been discussed etc. A and B are not necessary for Varys to present Aegon....

3. Perhaps you should stop shopping people's posts into separate sentences. It seems to be confusing even you.

4. does not even adress what I was talking about?

5. I am making it up that the King has no secrets from his KG? From Jaime in Feast

6. And I did not say that the King presents decrees to his KG. I said:

7. Do you see the word present in there somewhere? Being someone's shadow means you're with them constantly. If Aerys signed a decree, or spoke a decree, Jaime would have been there

8. is very simple. There is nothing to legitimize when there is no child.... How else are you supposed to know what you are going to legitimize? A boy? A girl? Twins? What is the name?

9. A King can declare a bastard legit... There needs to be an actual bastard for that.

10. First of all, if you know the source, why did you respond the way you did? That was unkind.

11. Second, you know the source, it has been GRRM. Somehow that is not enough for you.

12. Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. I don't see how I could be taking that the wrong way.

13. That I point you to 4 novella's that we have, and a 5th on the way (perhaps you haven't noticed, but the publication date of the 5th has actually been announced?), suggests that I have superior knowledge? I do believe you are now reading words that I'm not typing...

14. Our sources are the books, the novella's, the interviews, the RPGs, the app, GRRM's statements on his blog (in answer to questions as well as just publications) and Ran's posts. Once it's been printed (books+novellas) it's finalized. Until then, it might change slightly. However, what the app contains is the information from the books, plus extra's that GRRM told the people who made the app. And IIRC, that all came from his notes.

15. Elia only became a hostage after the Trident, when Aerys became convinced that Lewyn Martell had betrayed Rhaegar.

16. Dorne would have reason to care about what Rhaegar did before he died, if it involved Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. And what Rhaegar was doing before he died, did involve them

17. What? And where would they have gotten that news? So you say that they didn't know Aegon was dead (news of three weeks or so old), but they did know that Ned was coming with 6 companions (news of a week and a half old?)? Nice hypothesis, but I don't buy it.

18. Do you know the problem of meeting the enemy on a distance of a mile away? Someone could sneak past you, ride to the tower, and find it unprotected. BAM, baby dead.

19 well, at least we road a mile ahead right? No, that's not how it works. But perhaps answering to this one in particular becomes easier when you formulate it in an actual sentence. Some words seem to be missing.

20. So Thorne knows that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard? No one knows... But Thorne does... Also, I wanted to quote this one just for emphasize

21. Since you were argueing it, perhaps MtnLion's post makes it clear for you that you have it wrong.

22. Marriage is a legal process.

1 GoT Chapter 18 Catelyn

2. So the fact that Robert died and Joff died and Varys let Tyrion out have nothing to do with why he is where he is. It cold only be things Varys learned spying on Aerys. Though nothing shows he actually did. Got it.

3: Perhaps I should.

4. It actually did address what you were talking about, Sorry for chopping your sentences on that note. However the numbers match up so putting the comment with,,, nevermind, You had implied that there would be consequences to inheritence regarding annulment.

5. 6.7. It appears to mean that the KG knew Aerys had troubles with Rhaella and got aroused by burning people. You must take it as Jamie knew every piece of paper Aerys signed and every word that left his mouth from Aegon's birth to the Trident.. If there had been a decree Jamie would have known about it. Hard to claim the latter without the former. as far as a shadow goes; How about in the dark or in the crapper. Does the shadow follow him there too... How about on cloudy days?

8.9. I Aerys decree any children born of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark to be legitimate... signed Aerys... that is not a claim of what happened... just proof that you made up the impossibility.

10. 11. I apologize. GRRM is fine. I dont care for him to rewrite the last books... i would not mind if he spent it on the next one, I would happily reread the books to spare him the time of having to explain them to me.

12. Rhaegar died with a woman's name on his lips. Lyanna has far fewer leters that a woman's name. You can't even claim it was a typo. It made it through the editors and on to publishing. I really wish I had never met my exwife. However me saying it does not stop the alimony checks from going out.

13. 14. Great. I am glad for you. thanks for the update. perhaps we will see what theory gets proven and what theory gets demolished.

15. ok. But elia became hostage to do the very thing her marriage was supposed to be doing.

16. Dorne had trouble proving who killed Elia. Investigating a dead son in law would seem a distant second, Because everybody he had impacted was also dead.

17. I Dont buy hypotheticals either. mine or yours.

18. 19, The problem is in making up hypothetical rules when you already have the conclusion in your head. One will necessarily support the other.

20. I kind of doubted you would read it, Makes no difference. Just wondered if you wanted to know the Cat 18 Chapter from GoT... Meager the Cruel swore only the blood of the dragon would know the castles secrets... I kind of read this response first and then assumed you would not bother to read a passage.

21,22. MTNLN was wrong. In Westeros, marriage is a religious practice. Kings lords and officers of the law do nor perform marriages. Religious figures do. Read the reply to the post. He cheated / was full of crap on his definition. for legitiate.

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1 GoT Chapter 18 Catelyn

2. So the fact that Robert died and Joff died and Varys let Tyrion out have nothing to do with why he is where he is. It cold only be things Varys learned spying on Aerys. Though nothing shows he actually did. Got it.

3: Perhaps I should.

4. It actually did address what you were talking about, Sorry for chopping your sentences on that note. However the numbers match up so putting the comment with,,, nevermind, You had implied that there would be consequences to inheritence regarding annulment.

5. 6.7. It appears to mean that the KG knew Aerys had troubles with Rhaella and got aroused by burning people. You must take it as Jamie knew every piece of paper Aerys signed and every word that left his mouth from Aegon's birth to the Trident.. If there had been a decree Jamie would have known about it. Hard to claim the latter without the former. as far as a shadow goes; How about in the dark or in the crapper. Does the shadow follow him there too... How about on cloudy days?

8.9. I Aerys decree any children born of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark to be legitimate... signed Aerys... that is not a claim of what happened... just proof that you made up the impossibility.

10. 11. I apologize. GRRM is fine. I dont care for him to rewrite the last books... i would not mind if he spent it on the next one, I would happily reread the books to spare him the time of having to explain them to me.

12. Rhaegar died with a woman's name on his lips. Lyanna has far fewer leters that a woman's name. You can't even claim it was a typo. It made it through the editors and on to publishing. I really wish I had never met my exwife. However me saying it does not stop the alimony checks from going out.

13. 14. Great. I am glad for you. thanks for the update. perhaps we will see what theory gets proven and what theory gets demolished.

15. ok. But elia became hostage to do the very thing her marriage was supposed to be doing.

16. Dorne had trouble proving who killed Elia. Investigating a dead son in law would seem a distant second, Because everybody he had impacted was also dead.

17. I Dont buy hypotheticals either. mine or yours.

18. 19, The problem is in making up hypothetical rules when you already have the conclusion in your head. One will necessarily support the other.

20. I kind of doubted you would read it, Makes no difference. Just wondered if you wanted to know the Cat 18 Chapter from GoT... Meager the Cruel swore only the blood of the dragon would know the castles secrets... I kind of read this response first and then assumed you would not bother to read a passage.

21,22. MTNLN was wrong. In Westeros, marriage is a religious practice. Kings lords and officers of the law do nor perform marriages. Religious figures do. Read the reply to the post. He cheated / was full of crap on his definition. for legitiate.

Didn't read it. :)

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Just put him on ignore, I did it two threads ago and it's brilliant but then people keep on talking on so it's still about him... :frown5:

:P

Do you need a hug White shadow? Not from me of course, but someone nice. I have read nice people give good hugs.

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sod: Marriage is not a legal process but a religous (sic) one.

How wrong can you be? Marriage is a legal process in Westeros that determines heirs, especially among the nobility. That is the reason that we are discussing marriage, to determine Jon's legal rights as a legitimate heir.

Legitimate: conforming to the law or to rules.

That is something I do not get.

No Targ is the heir to the throne. The throne was taken away from the Targs. The throne was taken away from the Baratheons also.( as far as Stannis is concerned.) Aegon, if he is Aegon, Dany, Stannis, and Jon, if he is legitimate, are not heirs to the throne. They will need to take it by force to become king or queen of Westeros.

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Troll, you can't possibly be wrong, can you? Wait for it: No!

Marriage is legal when performed in accordance with laws. Heh. It can be performed by a justice of the peace. It can be performed by the captain at sea. It can just happen through common law (forgot to kick her out on our 6 year and eleven month anniversary). Or in the case of fArya by exchanging words in front of a tree, legally witnessed, of course. There are more tree weddings, too. But, think with half a brain and you will realize that the church of the seven does not decide who is the legitimate heir, otherwise it would be the high septon.

The Justice of the Peace of Kings Landing located at the corner of MtnLion and imagination. The marrying Captain MtnLion aboard his ship The Illiterate Dreamer. You can hire MtnLion the Common Law lawyer of King's Landing located at the corner of Out and House.

You may travel in MtnLion's godswood and see his immense grove of Leglwittness trees. I wonder where MtnLion borrowed the half a brain from because he got a sentence half right. The faith of the seven does not determine the legitmate heir. Tihe half wrong is the high septon's involvement it is really just kind of out of the blue.

If one can't manage to pick the legitimate baby part of the legitimate definition, he or she should not be allowed to paraphrase complete sentences.

The legal process of determining heirs in the Seven Kingdoms (North of the wall has their own processes) considers only children born to parents that are married to eachother as eligible. As an exception a Royal Decree can legitimize a bastard and make him or her eligible.

Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Incorrect definitions, wildly inaccurate statements, complete disregard for text or other reference, inventions of practices ans institutions---in an attempt to disprove a supportable and accurate statement seems deliberately disruptive and begging for an argument.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Marriage#cite_note-Racok34.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-12

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Ramsay Bolton stood beneath them, clad in high boots of soft grey leather and a black velvet doublet slashed with pink silk and glittering with garnet teardrops. A smile danced across his face. “Who comes?” His lips were moist, his neck red above his collar. “Who comes before the god?”

Theon answered. “Arya of House Stark comes here to be wed. A woman grown and flowered, trueborn and noble, she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?”

“Me,” said Ramsay. “Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort. I claim her. Who gives her?”

“Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father’s ward.” He turned to the bride. “Lady Arya, will you take this man?” ADwD p. 488

Then later:

Quick as that, it was done. Weddings went more quickly in the north. It came of not having priests, Theon supposed, but whatever the reason it seemed to him a mercy. ADwD p. 488

There is no officiant. This Northern wedding had Theon give away fArya. Normally, it would be something like a father, uncle, or male sibling giving away the bride to someone they agreed to give her to, the groom.

Also, separating "magical," "superstitious," "religious," "traditional," and "legal" concepts in Westeros is, frankly, impossible.

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That is something I do not get.

No Targ is the heir to the throne. The throne was taken away from the Targs. The throne was taken away from the Baratheons also.( as far as Stannis is concerned.) Aegon, if he is Aegon, Dany, Stannis, and Jon, if he is legitimate, are not heirs to the throne. They will need to take it by force to become king or queen of Westeros.

The discussion is about from the perspective of the remaining Targaryen KG and other loyalists. The throne has been stolen, but thats temporary (even if 20 years or more temporary). Their true heir is someone in particular, whether that person tales the throne by force or not.

Just as Renly could never have been a legitimate claimant ahead of Stannis. He wanted to take it by force, and may have been able to make it stick, but that still wouldn't have made him a legitimate claimant ahead of Stannis, just a successful usurper.

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