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The Sun and the Moon a look at the parallels, and symbolisim of Jon and Dany. Section 3 update Be like water

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The Sun and the Moon a look at parallels, and symbolisim between Jon and Dany.


This is not a theory, this is not a shipping thread, this is just a look at text that draws parallels and generates symbolism between the Jon and Dany and a look at the connections that are drawn. Whatever conclusions you come to are your own, whatever you wish to discuss about the text is more than welcome. It looks at the obvious and the obscure, direct and indirect uses of the aforementioned. The only thing I ask is that you read all the examples in the OP as they are laddered. I am not making any claims; this is not to contradict anyone’s theory, this is simply studying the text and looking at these connections. I promise this is not as boring or complex as it may sound. I only take one theory into account and that is R+L=J, even if you don’t agree with that theory that’s fine, you don’t have too, I will let the text speak for itself.



Now there are many known parallels and I will list those, but this is a look some that are not talked about often if ever. There will be 3-4 sections for reference, parallels and symbolism, AAR and the PtwP a study and cross comparison in the obscure and the obvious, miscellaneous, and fan finds.



Dance chapter 2.


"Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side."



Dance chapter 7.


"Ghost padded after him, a white shadow at his side."



You know there are parallels and there are parallels but it is identical phrasing. I know it's no blue rose, but I mean come on. We have a direct parallel here between Dany and Jon. So what do people think is the symbolism between Ghost and Selmy here? What is the obvious connection between Dany and Jon here? What is the obscure? What is being related with this kind of direct parallel and symbolism?



Mormont.


Another oddity between Dany and Jon is that Dany of course had Jorah Mormont as he sworn sword and Jon had Mormonts sword.


It's obvious but it's never really talked about, that I know of. This seems to be a rather obvious connection. There is symbolism of course, but also a very direct parallel involving Mormont.



You are probably wondering about the Sun and the Moon at this point, and this next part is a laddered section pertaining to that, so please read all of it as it is separate parallels that may act as one big one.


The Son and the Moon.



Thrones 22, Eddard.


“You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you.”



This is where it really starts, a theme with sun and moon. Just do me a favor and keep this post in mind while you read on. It may have nothing to do with anything, but there is a theme there.



Thrones 23. Dany, now we all know this passage, but it's about connections.



A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon,”



The moon?”



“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”



Now of course you have a metaphor here for how Dany woke the dragons. That’s the obvious. Dany being the Moon and Drogo being the sun. But it's moon in reference to Dany which is important. That symbolism is tied to her in the books. But also this passage points to a much more obscure yet obvious parallel, with large amounts of symbolism. Remember the moon will kiss the sun.



“You are foolish strawhead slave, Irri said. Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.”



“While Doreah brushed her hair until it shone like spun silver, she thought about the moon, and eggs, and dragons.”



Remember there are dragons and there are dragons, literal and figurative. Something to consider about both the sun and the moon is that they give off light. Not really getting into a lightbringer thing, but they give off light and create shadows among other things. They also both rise.



Kings 48. Yes I am posting the blue rose and the Undying, but for a reason, I hope you just trust me a little further it's getting to the overall connection.



“A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows.”



The color blue can be applied to shade of the evening but also, The rose, the Others, the blue eyes the blue stars. This heart has been corrupted something happened to it but it is alive. It's also giving off light, blue light but light. Now remember the blue, the heart, the corruption.



“There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.”



Now I have blue and rotting something also associated with the Wights. But the heart is still alive. In a lot of ways it seems undead or undying. Is there a parallel between the undead and the Undying which is directly related to Jon and Dany here? There appears to be clear symbolism forming between the Undead and the Undying, though one seems an obscure version of the other.



mother of dragons came a voice, part whisper and part moan dragons dragons dragons other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child.”



Well we have dragons here, voices male and female, one is a child though. It's specific to point that out. Blue, rotting and hard and death continue through the scene. If you know the whole scene it goes into the flesh being hard and cold.



“The floating heart pulsed from dimness to darkness



The heart and darkness are now associated along with rotting, the cold, and hardness, blue and undying.



“the shape of shadows morrows not yet made drink from the cup of ice drink from the cup of fire



" mother of dragons child of three"



"Three? She did not understand."



"three heads has the dragon"



Remember the Mother of dragons, the symbolism of the moon and Dany? Dany being the mother of dragons, literal dragons, but what about the figurative ones? A symbolic mother not giving actual birth here. Now what about the quote about fire and ice? It is up to you I just wanted it posted; I want you to think about it.



Rhaegar is shown to Dany multiple times at the house of the Undying "The dragon has 3 heads” of course, but also his death. Not the only time Dany sees Rhaegar she often sees herself as Rhaegar in her dreams going all the way back to thrones.



a blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. mother of dragons, bride of fire”



Now dating back to thrones Dany has scene herself as Rhaegar in visions and dreams so what is being related here? We have another Jon connection, and a role reversal, but why? It’s obscure in a way but very obvious. Dany as Rhaegar and Jon as a blue rose. You can discuss this on many levels. The trope is flipped, what is the symbolism? Why is Martin drawing a connection between the two like that?



Mother! they cried. Mother, mother! They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life,



The fire, the life. I know it took a while but I needed to get to that. The fire, the life. The rest of the scene is Drogon wrecking the Undying but cold is applied to them, during that, dead, cold, rotting and blue. Cold dead rotting and blue is a very Wight way of being. So we see Dany is dealing with the Cold, dead, blue, rotting Undying and Jon has his Wights. Dany burned them and Jon burned the Wight in Mormonts room. Here in lies the parallel but again we can see one is obscure and one is obvious. The Wights are obvious, but the undying if you read the whole scene have almost identical symbolism. And the heart. You know who else saw a heart? Bran, when he looked into the heart of winter. Again the role is reversed one heart is obvious and one obscure, one is literal and one if figurative.



Ok now for the big connection, sorry it took so long.



Dance 31, Mel.


The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.



"appearing and disappearing again, shadow half scene behind a fluttering curtain." A lot of you know that scene very well, but what about this next one? It's a bit older, and the scene has Dany thinking about a kiss and well her dream man. The kiss is important, remember when the moon kissed the sun? Well read these next few.



Swords 23. Dany


"Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow."



His face remained a shifting shadow. Now you can see again another parallel with Mels vision about Jon. Now this last one, remember the Moon, the kiss, the shifting shadow.



Dance Ch 28 Jon.


"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."



Kissed by the moon. Now this is a literal moon and a metaphorical kiss and what is affected is his shadow. But what about a metaphorical moon and a literal kiss? What might be affected then? Now you may be wondering about Jon and the sun symbolism, and that is really important. Probably the most important passage I have seen for this theme and here it is.



Dance Ch 3, Jon. Jon is having a wolf dream. This is Jons first chapter in dance, remember that.



“The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him,”



“Snow the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer.”



“Snow,” the moon called down again, cakling.”



“Snow,” the moon insisted” The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden,”



Snow.” an icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared it’s teeth.”



So Jon is having a wolf dream, and Jon is not in control or anything, he is just sort of an observer that really doesn’t know he is an observer. He knows what Ghost is thinking, he hears what Ghost hears, feels what Ghost feels. Seems a little upsetting to the wolf but we have seen that before in dreams. You have the moon symbolism. You have ghost baring his teeth when the ice drops, note he does not growl at the moon. It’s what is behind him. Now ghost is near the watch not far from castle black he can see it and the wall though he has his own wolf thoughts on what they are, feel free to look at the chapter. The cave of night where the sun had hidden. Two things I want you to look at and consider. First why is Ghost hearing a voice? Literal moons do not talk, not even in this world, so the voice is in his head. And two, the last reference of the cave of night and the hidden sun. Think about that for a minute. Sure it has symbolism, the sun and the moon, its hidden. But what is wrong with this picture?



Why would ghost think that about the sun hiding in this place? The sun sets in the west, even in Westeros, the wall is north, and there are no walls around Castle black. At no point will it ever look like the sun is hiding there. The only way it makes sense is if Ghost is referring to a person. The thing is why would Ghost be referring to a person as the hidden sun? He is a wolf after all. The only way that makes sense would be if someone has been in his head; knows the story of the sun and the moon, and thinks of Jon as the sun. Know anyone who could do something like that? I am going to show you why this is a reference to Jon and not just anyone.



Dance 69, Jon. This is Jons last chapter in dance.



“And where will you be, crow?” Borroq thundered. “Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?”



Martin uses opposing chapters to make a hiding reference about Jon and Castle Black. So Martin made sure to put in a reference of Jon hiding at castle black. True or not, doesn’t matter, it’s the reference it supports and enforces the other.



Well I hope everyone who read this found it interesting, it’s open for discussion. There is more coming, two big and interesting parallels. They include prophecies and the assassination attempts on Jon and Dany. Which interestingly enough features a literal and metaphorical giant, both wounded in the belly and Harpy parallels, a Green Grace and a Grace in Green. We will continue to see the obscure and the obvious Dragons continue to do their dance. I hope this is enough for people to start with, and to get a good idea of type of writing and discussion we are looking at.


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Stannis and Victarion, Mel and Moqorro when Iron and Fire meet the Sun and the Moon.



Section 2



Once again please keep this quote in mind.



Thrones 22, Eddard.


“You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you.”



Now it may seem odd to be putting Stannis and Victarion here but it is actually relevant. We are about to look at the Stannis and Victarion parallels and how they relate to Jon and Dany. Now you have different men but this is about the journey and the story and the parallels within.



Kings Ch 6. Jon


“Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day”



Victarion is of course Iron Born.



The colors of their sigil are inverse, but still the same.



Both are well known navel commanders.



Both live on an Island



Both have issues with their brothers.



There is another parallel with Vic and Euron but I am not getting onto that right now.



Stannis of course was part of the war of 5 kings, in which his rightful claim was taken from him. He was also betrayed by his brother. There were 5 Kings involved but also a Queen. This was an obvious war for the crown.



Victarion had the Kingsmoot in which 5 would be kings sought the crown and one would be Queen. This is the obscure.



Both somehow have come across red priests who are helping them, but I will get to that.



Stannis is almost killed at the battle of the Blackwater when house Tyrell launches a surprise attack on his forces. There was also the use a famed green burning chain.



Victarion Crows 29.


“The Drums were pounding out a battle beat as the Iron Victory swept forward, her ram cutting through the choppy green waters. The smaller ship ahead was turning, oars slapping at the sea. Roses streamed upon her banners; fore and aft a white rose upon a red escutcheon, atop her mast a golden one on a field as green as grass.”



So while the blackwater was an obvious battle involving the Tyrells here we see a far less obvious battle involving the banner men of house Tyrell, but the golden rose is no less evident. Now Victarion won this battle, but a little later we find out he was poisoned. There are questions about how or who that happened so I won’t get into it much, the symbolism of the battle is enough. Though we see a mirror effect, Vic is launching the surprise attack here on the Tyrells and of course he wins.



From all sides rosey warriors converged



Now after this Vic is sent off to bring Dany back and her dragons to Wed Euron but he has his own plan. Not that it matters much, but you have Stannis head to the wall as he tries to take back the kingdom and Vic has his own plan to take his own crown. Stannis sails north to Ice and Vic south to fire.


Now we get to the red priests, Melisandre and Moqorro, and I think a bit of Patchface. Now much like Jon and Dany and Stannis and Vic, they are both very different.


Now Melisandre went to Stannis of her own will with her own agenda and speaks often of Azor Ahai. That is what she was looking for along with dragons. But as we know, her Journey with Stannis has led her to Jon as well.



“I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow



“It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”



Now of course Mel has a lot of magic, and is prophetic. Now Mel has the obvious she went to Stannis, we know this and it has also led her to Jon, which may be what she is really looking for. But what about Moqorro? He didn’t go looking to Vic, did he? Well according to his visions which he followed they led him to Vic on his journey to get to Dany. Mel has her symbolism with the Red Sword Lightbringer and Moqorro has his symbolism with his Dragon head staff. Each connected in a way to the two main Prophecies, AA and tPtwP. That is very important symbolism, as both Jon and Dany are each more connected with one prophecy than the other, but tied to both as the Red priests are tied to eachother.



Moqorro


Have you seen these others in your fires?”



“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”



Of course in the middle of a great storm Moqorro got the idea that standing on the prow of the ship would be a good idea and vanishes for a time.



“Longwater Pyke came pounding at the Cabin door to tell him that the captain of Greif had come aboard with a prisoner. Says he’s brought us a wizard, Captain. Says he fished him from the sea.”



Burned Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones.”


“a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew marks of evil.”



“we found him clining to a broken spar,” said the Vole. “He was ten days in the water



Slave tattoos, marks of evil, and he was fished from the water after being in it for 10 days. They way Vic found him is not all that different from Patchface is it? But also he has heavy Mel parallels.


Now a normal person would be dead after 10 days in the water, but he lives with no food and no water and no hypothermia. Now I bring this up for a reason. Blood, remember that first quote?



Thrones 22, Eddard.


“You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you”


Well these two are clearly not related so how can that be?



“The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin



Now Moqorro has the obvious blackness, and you can see the flames on his face. Here it is more obscure but not all that different.



“Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price.”



“Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R’hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed,”



Much like the last kiss it appears Mel and Moqorro have fire in their blood, the same fire from the same order of worship.


Another obvious and obscure reference is that Moqorro obviously has slave tattoos, while we find out that Mel may have once been a slave. “Lot Seven.”


Mel and Moqorro both gave gifts to Vic and Stannis.



Kings 10 Davos.


“Devan knelt and with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heros looks a proper mess, thought Davos.



How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis



A burning sword,” corrected Davos.



Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan,”



Dance 56


“As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand



There is also other blood to consider. That of Stannis and Victarion, ancient blood perhaps.



The first Storm king Durran, wed the daughter of the sea god. Perhaps this could be more literal than we think. You also have the Storm god and Storms End and the Storm lords, the Storm god of course is worshiped by the Iron Born, more obscure than the drowned god, but still gets plenty of mention.



Now the Journey of Stannis and Mel led them to the Wall and Stannis and Mel arrived Just in time to save the watch during the battle of the wall.


Victarion and Moqorro are on their way to Dany. That’s all I will say but have some of you read the Winds of Winter sample chapters?


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“Be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”



Bruce Lee discussing fighting seems like it would have nothing to do with inverse symbolism of the sun and the moon, but actually it does in a sense. Water can be many things and come it all kinds of shapes in forms one of those forms is a giant wall made of ice. In section three I am going to sort of change things up a bit and delve into polarities of opposites or opposing forces, and how they combine. Is this important? As said at the very beginning that is for you to decide. Just hang in there with me, I have tendency to build up to something and it can take a bit, but I like a lot of support from the text.



This is not a scientific study of polarities rather a simple look at symbolic polarities like Ice and Fire, natural opposites. Polarities can be many things, it can be like looking in a mirror, or something like Ice and fire, north and south, good and evil. Interestingly enough polarities attract, like the famous saying “opposites attract.


Dragon glass/Frozen fire/Obsidian, the perfect meeting of Ice and Fire. Do you think it is Ice and fire? Really think about it for a second. The answer is probably no. I’ll tell you why, there is no ice in obsidian it is volcanic glass, it is made from magma, and in the books you can draw out fire from it. They find it in and around volcanos. Nobody draws Ice from it, it’s not actually frozen and it contains no water. But it does have an inverse parallel. The Ice armor of the Others, obsidian is black, it absorbs light and it’s real elemental property is fire. The armor of the others or even their swords are not all that different, they are rigid or solid, the blades are like milk glass and the armor is like a mirror it reflects rather than absorb, it’s main element is Ice, frozen water.



Now when obsidian met an Other (Puddles) what happened? You got water, fire met ice. That’s really what you get when fire meets Ice, you get water. Nobody really talks about water we talk about a lot of things but not water. Yet in the books and even in the title it is highly symbolic.



Time… is time associated with water and inverse parallels in the books, does it have a polarity? Symbolically yes, we learn part of this from BR.



“The trees remember, but men forget.”



“The singers of the forest had no books. No Ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees and weirwoods above all.”



When the singers die everything they are and were goes into the tree. The singers believe the trees are the old gods. Mist also seems symbolic of memory and the past in the books. The Others as well:



“A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”



Like memory Ice preserves, it may not always be perfect, but neither are the Wights.



Fire, fire consumes just like time. In the books the inverse parallel to the old gods or the weirwoods is fire. Fire destroyed many a weirwood just like time tends to eat away at our memories. But more than that. The red priests of R’hllor look into their fires to see the future but the future is ever changing. The fading mist and the shifting shadows. Targaryens also have a tendency to see the future.



The Old gods and R’hllor, inverse parallels polarities really, past and future, fire and ice.



“. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . .”



Like most polarities Ice and fire are being drawn to one another, but what about the middle where future and past meet?



“For men time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction.”



“Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadows that is all we know of the days to come.”



We are in the water trapped in it, the present flowing from past to future. Between past and future, the river ever flowing. I kind of like how Martin did that.



“Looking into several rooms in a hallway in the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees several scenes, some which appear to be of the past, some of the present and some of the future.”



When we first learn the dragon has three heads this is what begins that series of prophecies, past, present and future, or ice, water and fire, or at least if you want to try looking at it that way.



You know a lot of people in the books speak using polarities, or inverse parallels or opposite whatever you’re comfortable with.



Mel.


“We all must choose. Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same. We choose light or we choose darkness.”



Quaithe.


“To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”



But the Reeds do it a lot.


Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."



"Yesterday you said you loved them."



"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."



“”Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."”



“"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.””



"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."



"They are different."



"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."



"One," his sister agreed, "



Look at all those polarities, up and down, down and up, love and hate, ice and fire, night and day. You know Martin once said Fire was love and passion and all that kind of stuff. So if fire is love then what would Ice be? Hate? And if love and hate can mate you get water by that logic.



Let’s look at a few more from the Reeds.



"I swear it by earth and water." Jojen



"I swear it by bronze and iron." Meera



"We swear it by ice and fire." Both



Look at that, more polarities, there many things here to examine. An order of time earth and trees, the dawn age, bronze and Iron man and the present, ice and fire what is to come. Earth and water are polarities, bronze and Iron are as well in multiple ways, and of course ice and fire. Note that it is a male and female and how they say it, separate but in the end together as one. Bronze and Iron have an interesting sort of theory tied to them that Butterbumps was talking about. Iron perhaps being used to repel or keep magic away and bronze being a sort of magical metal. Think of the armor of the Royces and the swords in the crypts of Winterfell. But also Bronze is sure some shinny stuff when polished it will reflect like a mirror, black iron as it is often called in the books is not so shinny but rather dull and grey.


You can also read those 3 polarities like this, Trees, Man, Water. That’s really what you get symbolically when you combine them, some might say mud, but trees seem rather appropriate.



You know water even has its own magic in the books. The Rhoynar used magical water spouts to fight the Valyrians and of course the hammer of the waters.


You are probably going ok how does this relate to the sun and the moon and Dany and Jon? Like I said I like to build things up.



“That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.”



Fire meets ice and in between the river, the fire melts the ice and the river becomes a torrent. Fire and ice once again make water. The trident symbolic of 3 and 1, You also have dreams and nightmares another polarity or opposite. After that Dany is reminded.



"Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."



The meeting of light and shadow.



Back when Dany was pregnant with Rhaego she consumed the heart of a stallion beneath the mother of the mountains. You know the Dothraki are very male oriented yet here in their home the symbolism is of women. The mother of mountains, the womb of the world the Cornes, all female symbolism. A bent woman with a single black eye “The prince is riding!” The old crone peered into the smoke, and gives us the stallion who mounts the world prophecy. But after all that Dany goes to a lake. The womb of the world, water.



“A thousand thousand years ago the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.”



Interesting symbolism with the womb of the world, it has one river that flows to the shivering sea and of course is believed to be the beginning of life.


Dany baths in it’s cool dark waters with the moon reflecting off the water shattering and reforming. A parallel exists within the books, though like a lot of things the symbolism is a bit inverse. Dany walks out of the water naked and with child, and makes love to her husband.



Bran has a vision of a similar moment, the visions seem to appear in chronological order. You get what appears to be Lyanna and Benjen, and after what may be Dunk. It’s not that big of a window.



“a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.”



So 213-217 for a young Dunk, and around 277 for Lyanna. So 50 or 60 years maybe around 247, Rickards mother?



What is really intresting is the Crone watching Dany has one eye and makes a prophecy and the woman in the vision is praying to the Old gods, to the tree at Winterfell. Do we know anyone with one eye that may have been watching? Did he grant revenge, did this begin a cycle? Who's child is she pregnant with?



Anyway it seems simple enough both are pregnant one has light hair the other dark, one is in the north west the other the south east, one his happy the other is seeking vengeance, one is a lake the other a small pool. Dany of course loses her child. Targaryen and Stark.



Even Tyrion gets into the act, and this is one of the strongest of the parallels, it is heavy with polarities but also water.



"Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. What hour is this? he asked Moqorro. That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"



So if some of you recall as I talk about at the top the story of where dragons come from. Sun and Moon, it’s not that different, and moon is reflected off the water and anything reflected is backwards or opposite in fact polarities are off referred to as looking in a mirror. You will also note the fever, Dany actually runs a bit hot and in fact often seeks something cool, she is also attracted to blue. Blue eyes, blue rose, even blue slippers.



So why water? Remember the House of the Undying the cold blue shades were seeking “the fire the life.” But is fire life, to something like a shade it may be, but is it life? Fire can sustain life and ice can preserve the dead, because does it does not preserve the living it preserves the dead or the past. We see Wights and people like Beric and Cat maybe even Mel, one takes ice one takes in fire but are they really alive? No, I don’t think so. But water is actually the building block of life, now water and Ice is the same thing but when frozen by the cold it stops creating life.



Have any of you read the Ice Dragon by Martin? In that the 3 fire dragons from the south fought the Ice dragon in the north. In the end nothing was left but water and a child. Water is life we don’t exist without it, take the lake “The womb of the world” its water, it’s also very symbolic of life in the series. The first man came from there in the mythos, so it’s clearly important symbolism.



You know people often talk about Jon being Ice Fire and all that, and to an extent in a symbolic way that is true. But he has not attained either aspect the way Dany has attained fire. Jon is balance? Is he? I mean right now is Jon balance? Probably not and most of his symbolism points to ice, just like Dany’s points to fire. But “Drink from the cup of Ice, drink from the cup of fire.” Dany is also tied to both aspects. But why what is going on? Separate the two elements have both good and bad dualities. But the problem is when Dany took on her fire aspect she stopped being able to have kids. The dead, no matter how well preserved do not give life back. The cycle of life is stopped.



Now funny thing about Dany and Jon is that Dany is often drawn to the cold or cool and blue. Jon is often drawn to red and fire or kissed by fire. They are naturally drawn to their opposite, they seek balance. Now Jon is not like Dany at least not yet, Dany has a very visible fire aspect, but it’s external, and Dany is not really like Beric or Cat, her blood is normal. People don’t like the idea but the Night’s king is very much like Dany, human, with an aspect of ice, though can move around during the day and looks human. But he has his heavy ice aspect. Jon has a choice in front of him, just like Dany made a choice for the Dragons, Jon needs to make a similar choice I think. He can’t be a wolf forever. I think Mel or Val. There is a polarity with the Night’s Queen and the last kiss, the last kiss gives something, and the Night’s Queen takes something. In both cases though you’re not really whole though you are missing something, Beric talks about this and the story of the Night’s Queen talks about his.



“Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her… but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes a tangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone.”



Dany needs to cool down and Jon needs to warm up, they both need a drink from that cup, in the end the result should be water or in this case a child who is a Waters. The Dragons and the Ice Zombies need to go. Mother is what Dany called, by the slaves and it is what the dragons know her as. The heart of winter, is it really a heart or is it going to become Jon. She has been associated with 2 hearts, she needs a third and consuming a heart and destroying it will not work, fire then takes over no life. It’s really just a metaphor I think for the series, and the song. A child was said to have this song, some say Jon is that song, but never forget choices change things, the future is not set, shadows ever shifting. Like Rhaego, he exists only in a dream now.




"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."



To be as one, Dany and Jon can't actually be one, but their child can. It's very Arthurian if you look at it, Dragons and water, the land and the king, one, a unity and I am pretty sure we are going to get a sword in there at some point.



Well that’s it, I hope you enjoyed the read, I know part three is a bit controversial given some stances on the board. But I hope you all enjoyed it anyway.


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Very interesting parallel, some of them I had already notice some I had not. I hope we can have a discussion of them without it devolving into another Dany vs. Jon hate thread. Whatever one might think the parallels are there and there is some foreshadowing of them at least meeting.



I was working on a thread about Dany as the Moon (still working on it). There is something like 37 references to the moon in all of Dany's chapters, ironically enough there is something around 58 references to the moon in all of Jon chapters. Most of them are just plain ol' scene description references some, however, are more symbolic. I have them all jotted down if you are interested.



Now this has made me wonder, would there be more references to the sun in Dany;s chapter's than in Jon's. Probably.



I'm of the belief that there will be a romantic connection between Dany and Jon. I haven't worked out how it'll begin and or end, but I think that the foreshadowing is there and had just began to document it to see if I could make a proper case for it.



ETA: I've started a thread exploring the similarities between Bran and Dany (see my signature) perhaps you can find parallels there that could apply to Jon as well.


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Very nice OP! I'm very, very curious to see what Jon and Dany's relationship will be like. I don't know if they will be romantical, but whatever happens between them is sure to be interesting.

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Dany and Jon marrying is so tropifical and predictable it hurts.

They don't have to marry to be important to each other or to the story as a combo.

I like the OP.

One thing to consider (not that narrowing it in on Jon/Dany is wrong) is that there are sun/stars and moon references all over the place.

I think a more general theory would be that the concept of thinking of men and women as sun/stars/moons seems to tie together the Starks(FM) and Targs(Valyrians) and maybe even the Dothraki.

Look at the words for house Karstark "Sun of Winter" - founded by a male stark. This could be a secondary Stark motto itself.

Now just see the simple possibility that Stark=Star

The Ice dragon is a star, and it could be Jon, a Star(k).

The red (Targ) star(k) that bleeds may be Jon at the end of DWD.

Similarly, the sword of the morning is another star(or constellation) representing another FM house - Dayne.

--------------

OP your mormont and fire = life portions also seem to tie into Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbrigher thread.

Jon may provide the steel (represented by mormont's longclaw in this pairing[there are other pairings]) Dany the life(represented by Jorah) to "forge" Lightbrigher.

Couple these with Jon's symbolism as swords and dragons=fire=life and you have a possible "true" forging in the future. So Jon on(or in?) a dragon = Lightbringer.

If you haven't read Schmendrick's thread I recommend it, although he still has a part III to write as well.

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Very interesting parallel, some of them I had already notice some I had not. I hope we can have a discussion of them without it devolving into another Dany vs. Jon hate thread. Whatever one might think the parallels are there and there is some foreshadowing of them at least meeting.

I was working on a thread about Dany as the Moon (still working on it). There is something like 37 references to the moon in all of Dany's chapters, ironically enough there is something around 58 references to the moon in all of Jon chapters. Most of them are just plain ol' scene description references some, however, are more symbolic. I have them all jotted down if you are interested.

Now this has made me wonder, would there be more references to the sun in Dany;s chapter's than in Jon's. Probably.

I'm of the belief that there will be a romantic connection between Dany and Jon. I haven't worked out how it'll begin and or end, but I think that the foreshadowing is there and had just began to document it to see if I could make a proper case for it.

ETA: I've started a thread exploring the similarities between Bran and Dany (see my signature) perhaps you can find parallels there that could apply to Jon as well.

If you have any moon references or sun references on Jon and Dany that you want to post please do as long as they are applicable.

I understand the interest in Bran and the other two, and if you want to discuss that it is welcome, there is a Bran reference in the OP, and another I am using later.

There are heavy moon references with Bran in Dance at the cave, though I have not fully explored it yet.

I was not actually working on a Jon and Dany thread when I started this, the parallels just happen to be there, so I went with it and followed my nose. This is really about the obscure and the obvious. Take Dany the Obvious queen, and Jon an obscure, or obscured, or hidden king. The same applies to Targaryen heritage, I have found that if one has something obvious, the other has something symbolically the same but obscure.

Anything is open for discussion the topic, I not really looking at a love thread, if something in the text suggests that then of course I say discuss it. But it really needs to be suggested in the text, that's really all I ask, some speculation on the text is fine, but I really hoping it can stay as close to what the text suggest or does not suggest.

Very nice OP! I'm very, very curious to see what Jon and Dany's relationship will be like. I don't know if they will be romantical, but whatever happens between them is sure to be interesting.

I don't know either this is really not about romance, I am not looking for that but rather exploring the parallels Martin seems to drawing and why. Whatever anyone thinks that is is fine to talk about, I am not trying to be right or wrong about anything. Just looking to explore the relationship between the two in terms of symbolism and such. When sections two and three are done, I think you will see some really interesting directions that not only Jon and Dany's individual stories are headed but the story as a whole. Something else that is interesting is that sometimes parallels are forming but one character is ahead of the other. And you can kind look at the obscure or the obvious comparison and see where things may be headed for one of them. Take the assassinations, which I will be writing about. There is a parallel there, but Dany's is further along. So what might that mean for Jon.

Dany and Jon marrying is so tropifical and predictable it hurts.

Really? That's what you got from this? It's your dime, but if you wouldn't mind could you post why you think that. I get part of it from the sun and moon reference, but remember Dany had an obvious marriage to Drogo right? Jon had an obscure marriage to Yiggy. I can't remember which character said it but she is mentioned as Jon's wife. So you can have a marriage and you can have a marriage. But that is not really what the thread is about.

I know your a Stannis fan and I am not sure if your interested but Mel has been referred to as the red shadow. Now it's not the same as Ghost and Selmy because 1 is not like the Others. But there is an inference there. The Symbolism of Stannis having a great shadow and then it shrinking. I have not looked into it heavily, but you might want to look into some of his symbolism and see where it takes you.

Thanks for posting guys if you have any questions or want to contribute anything else please post again. Thanks for reading.

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They don't have to marry to be important to each other or to the story as a combo.

I like the OP.

One thing to consider (not that narrowing it in on Jon/Dany is wrong) is that there are sun/stars and moon references all over the place.

I think a more general theory would be that the concept of thinking of men and women as sun/stars/moons seems to tie together the Starks(FM) and Targs(Valyrians) and maybe even the Dothraki.

Look at the words for house Karstark "Sun of Winter" - founded by a male stark. This could be a secondary Stark motto itself.

Now just see the simple possibility that Stark=Star

The Ice dragon is a star, and it could be Jon, a Star(k).

The red (Targ) star(k) that bleeds may be Jon at the end of DWD.

Similarly, the sword of the morning is another star(or constellation) representing another FM house - Dayne.

--------------

OP your mormont and fire = life portions also seem to tie into Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbrigher thread.

Jon may provide the steel (represented by mormont's longclaw in this pairing[there are other pairings]) Dany the life(represented by Jorah) to "forge" Lightbrigher.

Couple these with Jon's symbolism as swords and dragons=fire=life and you have a possible "true" forging in the future. So Jon on(or in?) a dragon = Lightbringer.

If you haven't read Schmendrick's thread I recommend it, although he still has a part III to write as well.

Ok a lot here to talk about, that's great, great post. Umm the marriage thing I don't really know about it. That's a great reply about how they can effect the story separate or together. What I see from the text is that they do already have a relationship. Neither knows it, but it is there it's in the text, there is a sort of mirroring going on.

The lightbringer thing I am getting into a little bit, or really Azor Ahai and the Prince that was promised. I don't want to say to much but it seems they continue that dance or reflection of one another. Each has a more obvious connection to one of those and each has a more obscure connection to the one. Something I have noticed is that Danys story is a little further along, not much but a little bit, looks like about a chapter.

One thing I will give you on lightbringer if it's ok? Is that Dany has an obscure reference to the dragons being a red sword. That's an obscure lightbringer, just from text which is about a red sword supposedly. But with Dragons she as an obvious or literal connection to the prince. If Dany has an obscure lightbringer, then Jon would probably have the obvious parallel of that at some point. At the same time Dany has the obvious dragons, so the parallel and the continuing obscure and obvious theme would suggest Jon have the obscure version of that or be the obscure version of that. Not really sure because I don't want to get to far into supposition.

Stars, well I don't want to get to far into that as it is a bit off topic. UMMM but yes stars would seem really important. Though there are three stars suggested, the Red comet (called a star), the blue star of the dragon, and the green star. Also with the sun and the moon, there could be third aspect to consider and I am not really doing that, but the planet itself which may suggest CotF.

The R+L=Lightbringer is interesting. But consider something for me if you don't mind. There are multiple moments of Dany seeing herself as Rhaegar, it's very symbolic and dates back to thrones and I will list them at some point. But She has also seen Jon in a sort of Lyanna symbolism, the blue rose. There is a male female role reversal here that Alia of the Knife talked to me about. And if she posts she will probably be better at explaining it. But consider this if Dany is a symbolic Rhaegar, and Jon is a symbolic Lyanna despite blood lines, then maybe that is a slightly different suggestion than the theory your talking about. Same exact idea but we have a twist in the trope so to speak. The role reversal, and what the outcome of Lightbringer would I do not know. Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead, but if this is the metaphorical or symbolic version of them in this timeline, that text may be suggesting. But there are different ways to explore this idea and I am open to them.

Thanks for posting and reading, it was a great response and I like how you went with it and started exploring the connections between themes in the series.

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Nice!!!

I like the interpretation of Dany being the Rhaegar of the story and Jon being the Lyanna hence the rose symbolism.

I wonder whether the two will meet in harrenhal.

That's an interesting thought, wish I had actually had it, given Dany's vision of the trident and battling the Wight Walkers.

You know it's not the first role reversal, we saw it with Dunk and Brie. But there appear to be a lot of parallels out there between certain characters.

One thing I am currently looking at that is connected to Jon and Dany is Brynden Rivers and Euron Greyjoy. The Bloodraven and the Crows eye share so much symbolism, and are connected to Jon and Dany in a certain way and the Undying and the Wights. It's very odd. Also the Bittersteel and Vic connection, the killing of a guy named Baelor. Which may seem incidental with one but it may not of been who knows what Maeker was thinking. Both are such a mystery. I know Euron is would not be what I call safe to be involved with. This is for another day though.

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Without troubling myself to search down the quotes, I know there is a lot of sun, stars and moon imagery involved in the AA mythology. IIRC, twice in ADWD Mel thanks R'hllor for the sun and stars in her prayers and Jon is right there to hear her. Once she thanks AA for the sun, stars and moon though. Not sure if that messes up the imagery. And Salador said to Davos that when AA thrust Lightbringer into Nissa Nissa's heart, her cry of anguish left a crack across the face of the moon. That kind of imagery is nearly identical to the story Dany heard about the moon cracking to let forth dragons when it got close to the sun.



If Jon really does turn out to be AA the case for him to be the new sun and stars becomes a lot stronger imo, given all the sun and stars imagery involved with that persons mythos,


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Without troubling myself to search down the quotes, I know there is a lot of sun, stars and moon imagery involved in the AA mythology. IIRC, twice in ADWD Mel thanks R'hllor for the sun and stars in her prayers and Jon is right there to hear her. Once she thanks AA for the sun, stars and moon though. Not sure if that messes up the imagery. And Salador said to Davos that when AA thrust Lightbringer into Nissa Nissa's heart, her cry of anguish left a crack across the face of the moon. That kind of imagery is nearly identical to the story Dany heard about the moon cracking to let forth dragons when it got close to the sun.

If Jon really does turn out to be AA the case for him to be the new sun and stars becomes a lot stronger imo, given all the sun and stars imagery involved with that persons mythos,

Yeah it adds credence to the idea, was it in Dance 31 when she gave thanks? She gives thanks rather a lot. There are some other quotes from Mel on the subject also the wedding. Going back to her first scene in Kings and that history that Salador gives. That's going in the prophecy section, which continues on from the end of the OP. I don't know about actual kisses or stabbing's when it comes to the sort of historical mythology in the books. Or things being the exact same but it contains the ability to draw strong parallels and that is what is really important for the thread. By the way if you have the quote and or the chapter and want to post it as some point please feel free too, anyone for that matter.

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Hey Ser Creighton, I don't have much to add, just wanted to say interesting parallels you've identified. I do think Dany and Jon end up...connected? in contact?...I think Jon gets a dragon, sure, though I'm undecided if I think they end up together.



You tought up the Mormont family connection--I think we'll end up with a chapter where Jorah has returned to Dany's service, if not so close a counselor as before, in which Jon and Jorah meet in front of Dany. Jorah will see Jon with his former sword, see Dany and Jon hitting it off, and freak out. Jon is the like a son to Jorah's own father, has the family sword, probably will get the girl, etc. He's everything Jorah wishes he could be. Could be that's the way Jorah leaves the series...with Jon putting Longclaw through him.


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one thing to note is that this dream and Jon's AA dream the bird is pecking him (you might already know it)



THere's also at least 2 references each for magic sword and with Dany it was with regards to marriage


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They don't have to marry to be important to each other or to the story as a combo.

I like the OP.

One thing to consider (not that narrowing it in on Jon/Dany is wrong) is that there are sun/stars and moon references all over the place.

I think a more general theory would be that the concept of thinking of men and women as sun/stars/moons seems to tie together the Starks(FM) and Targs(Valyrians) and maybe even the Dothraki.

Look at the words for house Karstark "Sun of Winter" - founded by a male stark. This could be a secondary Stark motto itself.

Now just see the simple possibility that Stark=Star

The Ice dragon is a star, and it could be Jon, a Star(k).

The red (Targ) star(k) that bleeds may be Jon at the end of DWD.

Similarly, the sword of the morning is another star(or constellation) representing another FM house - Dayne.

--------------

OP your mormont and fire = life portions also seem to tie into Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbrigher thread.

Jon may provide the steel (represented by mormont's longclaw in this pairing[there are other pairings]) Dany the life(represented by Jorah) to "forge" Lightbrigher.

Couple these with Jon's symbolism as swords and dragons=fire=life and you have a possible "true" forging in the future. So Jon on(or in?) a dragon = Lightbringer.

If you haven't read Schmendrick's thread I recommend it, although he still has a part III to write as well.

I had a thread about the bold a while back. Link.

I also had a post about House Karstark's words and sigil possibly serving as a parallel or foreshadowing for Jon in Schmendrick's thread.

I think House Karstark's words and sigil might tie into some of the stuff Schmendrick is talking about wrt to the "sun's son."

Sigil: White sun on a black background. Snow-white, Night's Watch. The Karstark sigil has almost nothing in common with the grey direwolf on white of House Stark, except for the latter color. And I think it's reasonable to associate the white background on the Stark banner with snow. Which then means that describing the Karstark sun as snow-white might not be terribly farfetched.

Words: The Sun of Winter. To me, this almost implies more of the sun/son wordplay; e.g., son of Winterfell, but also with a connection to the Starks. And, the idea of a 'sun in winter' has some obvious implications for upcoming events like the WftD2.

What's interesting, as well as likely relevant, is that the Karstark's are in a unique position in the series, as the only (existing) cadet branch of House Stark. Which, in a way, parallels Jon Snow's relationship to this generation's current mainline Starks -- he's from a lesser branch of the Stark tree. Or maybe also, it could hint at him branching off to start his own House.

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Yeah it adds credence to the idea, was it in Dance 31 when she gave thanks? She gives thanks rather a lot. There are some other quotes from Mel on the subject also the wedding. Going back to her first scene in Kings and that history that Salador gives. That's going in the prophecy section, which continues on from the end of the OP. I don't know about actual kisses or stabbing's when it comes to the sort of historical mythology in the books. Or things being the exact same but it contains the ability to draw strong parallels and that is what is really important for the thread. By the way if you have the quote and or the chapter and want to post it as some point please feel free too, anyone for that matter.

Here is all the sun and stars imagery I could find in ADWD:

“The priest is calling on the Volantenes to go to war,” the Halfmaester told him, “but on the side of right, as soldiers of the Lord of Light, R’hllor who made the sun and stars and fights eternally against the darkness.

“The Lord of Light made the sun and moon and stars to light our way, and gave us fire to keep the night at bay,” Melisandre told the wildlings.

R’hllor,” sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow, “you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night.”

Moqorro’s voice was a bass drum that seemed to boom from somewhere deep within his massive torso. “We thank you for your sun that keeps us warm,” he prayed. “We thank you for your stars that watch over us as we sail this cold black sea.”

Ser Godry raised his head toward the darkening sky. “We thank you for the sun that warms us and pray that you will return it to us, Oh lord, that it might light our path to your enemies.” Snowflakes melted on his face. “We thank you for the stars that watch over us by night, and pray that you will rip away this veil that hides them, so we might glory in their sight once more.”

It seems to be a standard part of prayers for followers of the Lord of Light. The symbolism of having the sun and stars fight against the darkness sounds a lot like the AA prophecy though. So like I said, if Jon is AA that could tie him closely to any sun and stars imagery the way Dany is tied to moon imagery.

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Good stuff OP!

Obvious - Obscure

Dany was born while an actual storm was happening outside.

Jon was born while a storm of swords was happening outside. If our assumptions are correct.

They are both Stormborn. ;)

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