High Sparrow

[The_Crannogman]

Well the things that convinced me that HR could be the HS was the carvings of the seven on the septs walls, very much like the weirwoods in northern worship of the old gods. In fact Cersei even comments on the feeling of power coming from their eyes.

Anyway the people who say surely he would be recognized, this is a man who not many people in the South would have ever seen or cared about and those who had seen him would have seen him 16 years ago and would not have grown close to him.

Regarding what some people say about how did he find out about all the information without ravings being able to find him, Jojen Reed mentions that House Reed still has some of the tricks of the old ways when Bloodraven is talking about how the CoTF used ravens to give their messages directly, without the need for paper. Maybe Howland Reed can't do this but maybe he can warg into passing Ravens carrying messages and bring them to the ground, where he can read at his leisure about all the goings on in westeros.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Regarding what some people say about how did he find out about all the information without ravings being able to find him, Jojen Reed mentions that House Reed still has some of the tricks of the old ways when Bloodraven is talking about how the CoTF used ravens to give their messages directly, without the need for paper. Maybe Howland Reed can't do this but maybe he can warg into passing Ravens carrying messages and bring them to the ground, where he can read at his leisure about all the goings on in westeros.

The news is only relevant to the people of White Harbor, so its not like there will be a great many ravens. Would a raven fly over the neck from Kings Landing to WH.

Surely he has got other shit to be be doing than Warging every raven he see's on the off chance that there might be some relevant information of a foreign dignitary dieing.

Although its not impossible, Warging is much easier when their is a bond and warging into birds apparently is not good as there is more possibility of losing your identitiy.

[SpringKing]

No, I'm talking about the sleep deprivation- which is torture. Also I believe they would throw cold water on them iirc (this could be a mistake).

Point is, sleep deprivation is torture, and wrong. Whipping the Kettleblack the way he did was torture, and wrong. Torture is wrong, no matter the method. It's one of my personal issues with Dany (who we all know is my fav). She tortured the wine sellers daughter's and used crucifixion as a method of vengeance, I dislike both of these actions.

All torture is wrong to me, and from what we've heard of HR, I have a hard time reconciling in my mind that he'd use torture.

I believe there is a parallel between Marg's sleeplessness and Sansa's, when Marillion's mournful singing keeps her anxiously awake at the Eyrie. One crime in which we can safely assume Marg shares responsibility is framing Sansa for Joff's murder, resulting in Sansa's 'escape' into LF's clutches. In that sense Marg's punishment approximates the crime, making the High Septon's torture look just.

[The_Crannogman]

The news is only relevant to the people of White Harbor, so its not like there will be a great many ravens. Would a raven fly over the neck from Kings Landing to WH.

Surely he has got other shit to be be doing than Warging every raven he see's on the off chance that there might be some relevant information of a foreign dignitary dieing.

Although its not impossible, Warging is much easier when their is a bond and warging into birds apparently is not good as there is more possibility of losing your identitiy.

Yeah the only thing that made me think that perhaps he could do it was that he spent sometime on the isle of faces with the mysterious order of greenmen, who knows what he might have learnt from them.

[forestchilde]

Well the things that convinced me that HR could be the HS was the carvings of the seven on the septs walls, very much like the weirwoods in northern worship of the old gods. In fact Cersei even comments on the feeling of power coming from their eyes.

Anyway the people who say surely he would be recognized, this is a man who not many people in the South would have ever seen or cared about and those who had seen him would have seen him 16 years ago and would not have grown close to him.

Regarding what some people say about how did he find out about all the information without ravings being able to find him, Jojen Reed mentions that House Reed still has some of the tricks of the old ways when Bloodraven is talking about how the CoTF used ravens to give their messages directly, without the need for paper. Maybe Howland Reed can't do this but maybe he can warg into passing Ravens carrying messages and bring them to the ground, where he can read at his leisure about all the goings on in westeros.

The carvings are what convinced me as well...

One of the "magics" the crannogman knew in The KotLT story was the ability to "talk to trees", and as you say he spent part of a winter (this could be years) on the isle of faces. After which he "said his farewells" in the year of the false spring. Farewells to whom?

So he might not have to do any warging, just a little consultation in the godswood. :cool4:

[forestchilde]

The newly reformed Faith Militant and impending trials by combat mean we're bound to see the HS again. But if the KLT parallel holds, he's going to disappear as easily as he appeared, never to be named, like the mystery knight in the midst of the Harrenhal tourney. Hard to say what symbol he'll leave behind like the knight's discarded shield.

I like this parallel to the KLT, where we get most of our HR info. Digging into the symbol of sparrows in literature, I found this from the Venerable Bede:

"Your majesty, when we compare the present life of man with that time of which we have no knowledge, it seems to me like the swift flight of a lone sparrow through the banqueting-hall where you sit in the winter months to dine with your thanes and counsellors. Inside there is a comforting fire to warm the room; outside, the wintry storms of snow and rain are raging. This sparrow flies swiftly in through one door of the hall, and out through another. While he is inside, he is safe from the winter storms; but after a few moments of comfort, he vanishes from sight into the darkness whence he came. Similarly, man appears on earth for a little while, but we know nothing of what went before this life, and what follows.

This is one of the most frequently mentioned quotes regarding sparrows. There are others in Hamlet and the Bible.

[SeanF]

The commoners of KL don't have our historical perspective. They don't view their situation as suffering under a monarchy, since they don't have a conception of any other system. And the monarchy isn't actually oppressing them. There are plenty of prosperous residents as well as an underclass. That underclass would be the same in any system.

Arab Springs only succeed with outside help and generally bring in a worse government than they overthrow. I don't see Braavos or Lys supporting a rebellion in Westeros.

Peasant revolts in the Middle Ages were usually revolts against bad government, military failure, unjust treatment, uprisings in favour of a popular lord, rather than attempts to overthrow the government, or class system, per se. Often, the peasants would stress they were the King's loyal subjects, trying to rescue him from the influence of evil counsellors.

Such revolts often enjoyed great initial success, but were usually crushed once

the government recovered its nerve. Steel-clad horsemen and well-trained archers could rout many times their number of poorly-trained opponents. Where peasant revolts succeeded, it would be because they were co-opted by aristocrats.

The HS is an effective leader, with some aristocratic support, and a lot of mass support, confronting a nervous government. But, a government that was determined to use force could crush him. The Tyrells have thousands of men near Kings Landing.

[Mithras]

The Most Devout must have been mad as well, to elevate this creature [High Sparrow] . . . mad, or terrified of the beggars at their doors. Qyburn’s whisperers claimed that Septon Luceon had been nine votes from elevation when those doors had given way, and the sparrows came pouring into the Great Sept with their leader on their shoulders and their axes in their hands.

When last the salt kings and the rock kings met in kingsmoot, Urron of Orkmont let his axemen loose among them, and Nagga’s ribs turned red with gore. House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came.

Both coups are the same.

High Sparrow seems far more educated than a normal septon, and not only in the Faith but in politics as well.

The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots.

The man’s beard was grey and brown and closely trimmed, his hair tied up in a hard knot behind his head. Though his robes were clean, they were frayed and patched as well. He had rolled his sleeves up to his elbows as he scrubbed, but below the knees the cloth was soaked and sodden. His face was sharply pointed, with deep-set eyes as brown as mud. His feet are bare, she saw with dismay. They were hideous as well, hard and horny things, thick with callus.

Compare him to Haldon.

His companion was older, clean-shaved, with a lined ascetic face. His hair had been pulled back and tied in a knot behind his head.

They look like brothers, don’t they?

Crackpot time;

I think Haldon was the master at Dun Fort during the Defiance of Duskendale and High Sparrow is his brother. They studied in the Citadel together. When the defiance ended, Haldon was spared and sent to exile. He found his way among the GC. High Sparrow decided to join the Faith and served as a wandering septon. Both of them were approached by Team fAegon and became agents of Varys.