Tyrion & Shae

[Mikkel]

Well, yeah obviously it was for good reasons but you can see why it must have driven her up the wall, right? I'm not saying that Tyrion could have made a better decision here (well, apart from sending her away, but for some reason he couldn't quite do that because of mmmphmmm mmmm) but Shae was basically holding down a working-class job and living like a peasant while also suffering the isolation and control of being a powerful man's prostitute mistress. That's like the worst of both worlds.

Absolutely. She was too short-sighted to see why he did it, but I understand that from her perspective it sucked, I just don't agree with this part of their arrangement being an objective point against Tyrion.

I don't think she was really "the Hand's mistress" though - she ends up somewhere between a simple prostitute* and his mistress, because Tyrion is messed up and starts getting feelings for her, and fools himself into believing they're reciprocated.

She didn't owe him any particular loyalty above and beyond what she's given him because of their prior interactions - but she does owe the truth to another human being, same as anyone else does - particularly when that other human being is on trial for a murder they didn't commit.

She then goes and uses their "relationship" to further her own ends and help the prosecution against Tyrion, and well, that's where he has reasons for a grievance against her - it's probably true that her testimony doesn't make or break the case, but it sure doesn't help - and she does go above and beyond anything required of her when she publicly humiliates him.

So did she deserve it - probably not, but she did bring it on herself in a way (those are two different things IMO).

*no degradation or offense intended, merely a description of the "regular" situation with a prostitute: you pay, you have sex, you go your separate ways, no complications

[Woman of War]

......

Too right she presses to have the jewels and silks returned, if he returns them she can trade them for cash and get passage to Old town, or similar place not effected by the war, with the beautiful silks and her pretty yound face she can set herself up as a much higher class of prostitute, and live a far better life that she was as camp follower. Too right she wants those dresses back!

She wants to go to the wedding feast, she tells Tyrion she'll sit in the corner, out of sight and pleasure him when he goes to the toilet, but has it occured to anyone else that she wants to go to the feast in order to try to secure a new patron, one who will actually pay her and or keep her in teh manor she was promised by Tyrion? And escape the life of servitude she has been forced into by him.

Lollys, well yes its a harsh as hell thing to say, and can be interpreted as heartless, But think about it, she is a sex worker, she was abused by her father, she was made his servant in their home too, she ran away and lived on the streets, she had to prostitute herself, she will have had hairy encounters in her trade, seen women she worked alongside killed, scarred, maimed etc by Johns. So by what Shae has lived through Lolly's is whining about nothing. I'm not saying being gang raped is nothing, FAR FROM IT. But if you try to see things from Shae's perspective then you can understand why she says the things she does.

Ouch, that is an icky and politically totally incorrect thing to say and it might get you some flag....

But in a way I have to agree.

Shae has never experienced any empathy from anyone. People learn to be empathic by example. And, sad to say, part of so called resilience, of being a survivor, is the ability to lock out what gets too close to your own self. Part of resilience is to deny being a victim. And by empathizing with the victims around you, like Lollys and Sansa, you put yourself into their shoes: in Shae's eyes she would have turned herself into a helpless victim by admitting that the two others were indeed victims. Being victim Shae refused to be by all means, to protect her personal integrity. She tried never to give her fate out of her hands. She insisted on staying with Tyrion, she wanted to be superior to Sansa by suggesting that Tyrion should drug the girl and they had sex beside her. I half awaited Shae would suggest to drug Sansa and then have a happy threesome with the unconscious girl.

And Lollys indeed had "only" experienced in a condensed way what Shae had had for years. Sansa making a fuss about simple sex? Ridiculous spoiled brat!

And yes, to Shae Tyrion kept her salary from her. She did not only not realize the danger, she as well did not realize that there might be some things beyond her understanding. And Tyrion did not bother to explain.

So you might rightfully ask why I still in a way like the character of book Shae after having described her as horrible person. Because she never had the chance to learn empathy, less even than Tyrion who could make up for it with a more abstract intellectual approach to his role in life. And because she is a commoner character who shows some determination. And because I know that the best survivors, the most resilient people are not forcibly those who show the most empathy, otherwise they would crack. There may be saints out there somewhere but Shae the way we see her is far more realistic and not fairy tale material.

I am only annoyed that Martin named her "Shae", only one letter away from "She" as the basic female, as if she were a cardboard character.

[TheSnape]

Shae did betray Tyrion.

What prevented her from leaving KL when rumours of Tyrion murdering Joffrey started circulating?

[Woman of War]

Shae did betray Tyrion.

What prevented her from leaving KL when rumours of Tyrion murdering Joffrey started circulating?

That is true. If she had been reasonable she would have cut her losses, grabbed everything she could in haste and run for life.

But she was a gambler. She gambled when she followed Tyrion to KL, she gambled when she insisted on staying. And she gambled with her willingness to give testimony. Only she was not aware of the odds against her. She was not a passive character, she put everything on red - and lost. Gamblers aren't rational.

Edit: Post No 3000! Put everything on Black in my name for me, Cheerio!

[BlackStark]

Shae did betray Tyrion.

What prevented her from leaving KL when rumours of Tyrion murdering Joffrey started circulating?

To have betrayed Tyrion, she would have had to owed some duty to him which she did not...

What prevented her from leaving KL? Young attractive woman with no money or resources traveling alone around a war torn countryside where rape, assault, and murder are commonplace...really why wouldn't she want to do that?

[Woman of War]

To have betrayed Tyrion, she would have had to owed some duty to him which she did not...

What prevented her from leaving KL? Young attractive woman with no money or resources traveling alone around a war torn countryside where rape, assault, and murder are commonplace...really why wouldn't she want to do that?

As many have explained Shae had no special obligation to Tyrion. She only owed him what she would have owed any other citizen, no matter if she had ever seen this fellow citizen before: not to lie about his participation in a crime at court.

Shae would have not have been worse off on the road than she had been before she met Tyrion. Actually she would have been able to grab at least some valuables in haste for her future. She had done it for years: to hit the road. As it turned out she was worse off by staying in KL.

She should have had the sense to run when she still could. But if she had been capable of realizing that she never would have pressured Tyrion to let her stay before.

[Sapphireghost18]

And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" is highly disriminatory against prostitutes , as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors (oh it will get better, don't worry) hairdressers or saleswomen (you look great, dear) sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else.

Shae may have been under pressure from Cersei but she seems to have lied far more creatively and convincing than what was expected, she swore a perjury. Need I mention that this is no reason for murder.....a disclaimer like that should really not be necessary in a quality debate. But Shae indeed owed Tyrion something: she owed him what a citizen owes any other citizen : not to lie under oath, especially if it may cost his life.

She was never paid for her services to Tyrion. Cersei offered to pay her. No one, whore or otherwise, can do much of anything without money. She lied in court because I can guarantee that Cersei would have her killed if she didn't agree to.

Get paid and live vs Die

Her life vs Tyrion's life

Tyrion was most definately going to be found guilty anyway. Everyone already made up their mind. For her, the choice was simple.

Unfortunately for her, she ends up dead anyway.

[BlackStark]

As many have explained Shae had no special obligation to Tyrion. She only owed him what she would have owed any other citizen, no matter if she had ever seen this fellow citizen before: not to lie about his participation in a crime at court.

Shae would have not have been worse off on the road than she had been before she met Tyrion. Actually she would have been able to grab at least some valuables in haste for her future. She had done it for years: to hit the road. As it turned out she was worse off by staying in KL.

She should have had the sense to run when she still could. But if she had been capable of realizing that she never would have pressured Tyrion to let her stay before.

Her lies or shading of the truth (highlighting things said by Tyrion in a different context) had no bearing on his trial whatsoever. Her testimony was not deciding the factor in determining his guilt or innocence (that had probably already been determined from the start by the composition of the panel of judges) and ultimately didn't matter any way as Tyrion ultimately went with a trial by combat. Seeing what happens to those who cross or go against Cersei and Tywin (something Tyrion made her very aware of), why would she be expected to risk maiming or worse in defense of Tyrion, a clingy john who had already welched on previous agreements with her. Her crime in his eyes was not the lies or the betrayal (he knew she was no less a mercenary than Bronn who also sold out to Tywin and Cersei) but the fact that she insulted him and bruised his ego. She did not deserve to die for that or for doing what was necessary to protect herself.

I would think traveling with the Lannister Army would be a great deal safer than traveling alone where you are open to attack from all sides by the various factions and common bandits.

[themengsk176]

I'll never understand the mental gymnastics people go through to justify Tyrion murdering Shae with his bare hands. Sure, it was a crime of passion, but it certainly doesn't make things any better when he thinks of her as a lying whore afterwards.

As a man, I can understand his motivation, but to justify his actions just because he's a sympathetic character is really silly.

[Woman of War]

Black Stark, I do not think that we have many differences, you only emphazise different aspects differently than I do.

Yes, Tyrion was doomed anyway.

Yes, we may sympathise with Shae but she wasn't a nice personality

Yes, Tyrion was not entitled to kill her

Yes, Tyrion would maybe not have killed her if she had not repeated that "giant of Lannister" humiliation.

But we differ in the degree of agency we grant Shae. I think she had some and by acting more reasonable she could still be alive and better off that than before having met Tyrion. You think she had no way to escape her fate.

But she could have protected herself by running in time. She would have been back to working as common prostitute with maybe some valuable things hidden for her future. Giving false testimony was not her only option but the only option where she could keep upright any chance for a golden future. She decided to take that risk, went to Cersei and got under the Lannister wheels. She did not deserve death for sure but she could have seen the danger of it coming, one or the other way.

[Cas Stark]

Not that she "punked" him. She gave testimony that was above and beyond the pale damning against him. Basically ensuring that he'd be executed. Again, don't think she 'owed' him better. But by the same standard, he didn't owe her any better either, especially when she was a witness and/or could have raised the alarm.

The way I read the passage, he doesn't kill her over her testimony, his thoughts are about their past and his lust for her, right up until she calls him her "Giant of Lannister" which is what sends him into the rage. Not her false testimony. It's the fact that she STILL thinks she can use his lust/love for her to control him, even after everything that she has done...her testimony, being found w/his father...

This is what he kills her for, for thinking he's still under her power and can be manipulated the way she had been manipulating him all along. That forces him to face that yes, she was a whore and was faking it all along. This is why he kills her.

And that is nothing to die for, that's a plain old fashioned crime of passion MURDER where the jealous lover kills the person who has been playing him all along.

[Chillboy]

She was never paid for her services to Tyrion. Cersei offered to pay her. No one, whore or otherwise, can do much of anything without money. She lied in court because I can guarantee that Cersei would have her killed if she didn't agree to.

Get paid and live vs Die

Her life vs Tyrion's life

Tyrion was most definately going to be found guilty anyway. Everyone already made up their mind. For her, the choice was simple.

Unfortunately for her, she ends up dead anyway.

I can fully understand her, but that doesnt change the fact that she betrayed Tyrion (in his eyes), when everyone else turned against him and he was left alone. So I don't blame Tyrion for killing her.

[BlackStark]

The way I read the passage, he doesn't kill her over her testimony, his thoughts are about their past and his lust for her, right up until she calls him her "Giant of Lannister" which is what sends him into the rage. Not her false testimony. It's the fact that she STILL thinks she can use his lust/love for her to control him, even after everything that she has done...her testimony, being found w/his father...

This is what he kills her for, for thinking he's still under her power and can be manipulated the way she had been manipulating him all along. That forces him to face that yes, she was a whore and was faking it all along. This is why he kills her.

And that is nothing to die for, that's a plain old fashioned crime of passion MURDER where the jealous lover kills the person who has been playing him all along.

Except in this case he was paying her to play him...

[Woman of War]

Ahem, nobody said here that Tyrion had any right to kill Shae, it is pointless to insist that he was in the wrong and committed murder of whatever degree or manslaughter. Nobody will contradict that.

Only some express that they understand why he did it, but no one said Tyrion had a RIGHT to kill. This part of the topic can be buried I believe, for reason of being irrelevant. The debate is currently running in circles.

[Cas Stark]

Except in this case he was paying her to play him...

Making his murder of her all the more inexcusable. Of course, again, she shows herself her to be not nearly as clever as she thinks, which was her problem all along, she never knows when to leave well enough alone. If she had just said Cersei made her do it, she would have walked out alive, but she had to throw in a little extra....same as she did in the trial.

[Cas Stark]

Ahem, nobody said here that Tyrion had any right to kill Shae, it is pointless to insist that he was in the wrong and committed murder of whatever degree or manslaughter. Nobody will contradict that.

Only some express that they understand why he did it, but no one said Tyrion had a RIGHT to kill. This part of the topic can be buried I believe, for reason of being irrelevant. The debate is currently running in circles.

It seems to me a lot of people DO feel that his killing of her was justified, and some have even said they are glad he did it.

[BlackStark]

I can fully understand her, but that doesnt change the fact that she betrayed Tyrion (in his eyes), when everyone else turned against him and he was left alone. So I don't blame Tyrion for killing her.

This is a Tyrion problem, not a Shae one. Tyrion had no reason to expect she would stick by him when everyone else had turned against him...he knew from the beginning that she had no feelings for him (lust, love, or other) and it had been only a financial transaction in her mind. The lies she told him are the ones he paid her to tell. It is his fault, not hers that he bought into the fantasy he paid (not really) her to create...the source of his hurt feelings are his own delusions yet she is the one whose life is being sacrificed at their altar. That is why I blame him.

[Woman of War]

It seems to me a lot of people DO feel that his killing of her was justified, and some have even said they are glad he did it.

Waitwaitwait. Saying they are glad he did it does in no way mean that these posters do not see the wrong in this action, that they do not recognize it as murder or manslaughter.

I do not agree with them because I have a certain sympathy for the character of Shae. But given that Martin had to make Tyrion completely alone and desperate and that gagging her would have demanded complicated logistics (for Tyrion and for the author) killing was storywise the only way out. And Tyrion was supposed to get darker at this point of the story. So Martin decided goodbye Shae, the only possible solution in-story and on a meta level.

[Cas Stark]

Waitwaitwait. Saying they are glad he did it does in no way mean that these posters do not see the wrong in this action, that they do not recognize it as murder or manslaughter.

I do not agree with them because I have a certain sympathy for the character of Shae. But given that Martin had to make Tyrion completely alone and desperate and that gagging her would have demanded complicated logistics (for Tyrion and for the author) killing was storywise the only way out. And Tyrion was supposed to get darker at this point of the story. So Martin decided goodbye Shae, the only possible solution in-story and on a meta level.

I guess we will have to disagree on that. If I am "glad" that someone is killed, and think that they "deserved it" then I'm not going to see that action as wrong. What I see is a lot pf people describing what sounds like justifiable homicide.

[Mikkel]

I guess we will have to disagree on that. If I am "glad" that someone is killed, and think that they "deserved it" then I'm not going to see that action as wrong. What I see is a lot pf people describing what sounds like justifiable homicide.

One could be glad that Tyrion (the fictional literary character) becomes a lot more interesting by killing Shae (the equally fictional literary character), without condoning homicide. One could even think Tyrion is a murderous semi-psychopathic asshole for doing it, and still appreciate the act for it's literary implications :)