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Fourth Trailer Hits the Web


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On the bright side, we finally have a "confirmation" that Sansa and Tyrion are not BFF, as ussual people here just whined and bitch about a "change" with no good reason, only to be proved wrong :rolleyes:

I would gladly accept more irritating scenes of Sansa being friendly toward Tyrion in exchange for Sansa actually getting an active role in her own damn story.

Also, if your response to such a small change, before you even saw it, is "fuck the show"...well maybe you should just stop watching it? No one is forcing you and there certainly will be more changes

The point is that it's not a minor change in my view. There have been many minor changes and even major changes on the show that don't bother me, or I even approve of, and if you've read any of the threads about adapting the future books I've been vocally supportive of the need to make changes in order for it to fit into the TV show.

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Because one is very similar to an actual plot from the story (Brienne going to look for Sansa, which isn't much different from her going to look for Arya...both Stark girls)

Exactly. This is why I'm baffled that so many people find it hard to believe that she'll try to find Arya instead of Sansa.

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I would gladly accept more irritating scenes of Sansa being friendly toward Tyrion in exchange for Sansa actually getting an active role in her own damn story.

The point is that it's not a minor change in my view. There have been many minor changes and even major changes on the show that don't bother me, or I even approve of, and if you've read any of the threads about adapting the future books I've been vocally supportive of the need to make changes in order for it to fit into the TV show.

This is a very minor change, though.

I don't understand why you think this is so important. Sansa wants to escape, she's always looking for opportunities to do so: it's not like she's going to be kidnapped, or taken off against her will.

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Exactly. This is why I'm baffled that so many people find it hard to believe that she'll try to find Arya instead of Sansa.

Because it would make no sense, and serve no purpose. What possible leads would Brienne even be following on Arya? They don't even know that she left the city. With Sansa she at least has Dontos, and a list of places she might have fled.

The only argument you might have made for going after Arya would be if you wanted her to leave the city prior to the Purple Wedding, which she isn't.

This is a very minor change, though.

I don't understand why you think this is so important. Sansa wants to escape, she's always looking for opportunities to do so: it's not like she's going to be kidnapped, or taken off against her will.

No, it's a major change to eliminate Sansa's role in her own escape.

And it's important because it shows Sansa taking an active part, whereas the show has managed to make all the things people incorrectly hate on Sansa for in the books (that's she's dumb, that she stands around doing nothing) true in the TV version. There's a world of difference between Sansa choosing to go the Godswood in the face of the high possibility that it's a trap, and Sansa sitting in the Godswood where some guy stumbles in.

If the show can't even give her a role in her own escape, what possible reason is there to think she's going to have an active part going forward, where her narrative is as internal as most of the rest of her KL stuff?

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Yeah, I'm surprised at how many people have fallen for that editing trick, even in spite of all the spoilers indicating that Brienne's story is proceeding like it did in the books (at least until leaving KL; not really clear how episodes 5-10 are going to play out, but I doubt most people were expecting a faithful adaptation of AFFC anyway, and that's coming from someone who liked those [widely disliked] chapters for what they were, but it wouldn't make for good TV).

Actually, that poster is clearly stating that he believes that statement is about Arya, not Sansa.

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Exactly. This is why I'm baffled that so many people find it hard to believe that she'll try to find Arya instead of Sansa.

I don't find it hard to believe, but I do find the change unnecessary. Most people believe Arya to be dead at this point in the story, so sending Brienne off to look for her makes little sense. As others and myself have stated, it's likely just an editing trick to show viewers what Brienne will be up to this year without spoiling Sansa's disappearance, which is part of a major event in the fourth season.

Now, maybe Brienne does get sent to look for Arya. It wouldn't be a huge change, and it would ultimately send her to the same place. Hell, they could even throw in a line about how someone from the Brotherhood Without Banners got captured and interrogated and mentioned Arya was still alive. I just don't really see the point when Brienne is literally being sent out an episode after Sansa disappears, which means that's almost certainly who she'll be being sent to find and protect.

If I were a betting man, I'd be putting money on Jaime telling her that Arya is likely dead, but Sansa has only recently disappeared and might still be saved.

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And it's important because it shows Sansa taking an active part, whereas the show has managed to make all the things people incorrectly hate on Sansa for in the books (that's she's dumb, that she stands around doing nothing) true in the TV version. There's a world of difference between Sansa choosing to go the Godswood in the face of the high possibility that it's a trap, and Sansa sitting in the Godswood where some guy stumbles in.

If the show can't even give her a role in her own escape, what possible reason is there to think she's going to have an active part going forward, where her narrative is as internal as most of the rest of her KL stuff?

I'm just curious, are you upset that they cut the scene where Sansa goes to the Queen with Ned's plans in book1? That seemed like an active attempt to avoid viewers hating on Sansa. While she may not be a fan favorite like Dany/Tyrion/Arya, I haven't see a fraction of the hate for Sansa from TV viewers that I have seen among book readers.

As for Sansa taking an active part, Sophie herself says that she's manipulating those who had wronged her in the past, manipulating the unmanipulatable. That sounds active to me.

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I'm just curious, are you upset that they cut the scene where Sansa goes to the Queen with Ned's plans in book1? That seemed like an active attempt to avoid viewers hating on Sansa. While she may not be a fan favorite like Dany/Tyrion/Arya, I haven't see a fraction of the hate for Sansa from TV viewers that I have seen among book readers.

I have mixed feelings on that. It shows the writers completely caving in to the misogynistic bile lobbed at those characters rather than committing to showing the complexities and defending the characters' mistakes (there being a considerable portion of the fandom that finds an eleven-year-old girl disobeying her father without any sense of what will result to be an unforgiveable crime, while an adult male can be forgiven for throwing a child out a window intending his death just because he's kewl and angsty), which is something they've done a number of times in the adaptation process. At the same time, since it's pretty clear that GRRM was completely taken aback by the level of vitriol it generated against Sansa, there may be something to be said for changing it.

I guess my answer would be that I wish we lived in a world where female characters were allowed the same latitude as male characters to make mistakes and grow by the audience, but it may just be practical for the writers to acknowledge that we don't live in that world (though at the same time I kind of wish they just stuck to their guns and presented the audience with that kind of story anyway -- the kneeling issue at the wedding, for instance, really irritates me because it plays like a concession to people who think Sansa was a big old meanie for not being more cooperative in her own slow-motion rape, and that sort of attitude has implications way beyond the characterization of a fictional character).

As for Sansa taking an active part, Sophie herself says that she's manipulating those who had wronged her in the past, manipulating the unmanipulatable. That sounds active to me.

Sophie sold last season as Sansa going from a piece to a player, when in fact she stood around being the object of jokes about how dumb she was, so I don't place any faith in statements like that.

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No, it's a major change to eliminate Sansa's role in her own escape.

And it's important because it shows Sansa taking an active part, whereas the show has managed to make all the things people incorrectly hate on Sansa for in the books (that's she's dumb, that she stands around doing nothing) true in the TV version. There's a world of difference between Sansa choosing to go the Godswood in the face of the high possibility that it's a trap, and Sansa sitting in the Godswood where some guy stumbles in.

If the show can't even give her a role in her own escape, what possible reason is there to think she's going to have an active part going forward, where her narrative is as internal as most of the rest of her KL stuff?

Well, I can't pretend I liked Sansa's S3 arc; I do agree with you that she was presented in a much more idiotic and naive light even than her S2 character, and that was undoubtedly one of my major problems with the otherwise quite brilliant ASOS adaptation we got last year.

However, I still don't see why this latest development is being construed as such a major deviation from the books. I suppose it's because I'm not some kind of hardcore Sansa fan, but the notion that her character is in some way ruined or reduced to a plot device by this simple and relatively irrelevant change seems ludicrous to me. And responding to it with something like "fuck this show" just makes me depressed at how critical and obsessed we've gotten here.

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However, I still don't see why this latest development is being construed as such a major deviation from the books. I suppose it's because I'm not some kind of hardcore Sansa fan, but the notion that her character is in some way ruined or reduced to a plot device by this simple and relatively irrelevant change seems ludicrous to me.

It's really not a small change. Sansa's interactions with Dontos and the escape plan represent an arc spanning the better part of two books. Rewriting that so that Sansa is basically snatched out of King's Landing unawares is a huge change to her escape. And it remains, to date, the most active role she's taken in the plot.

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Many Sansa fans are saying the same things Colonel Green is saying here.

A Sansa who could pass for 25 but acts younger than her book counterpart. They gutted her characterization and plot. She basically responds to external stimulus.

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It's really not a small change. Sansa's interactions with Dontos and the escape plan represent an arc spanning the better part of two books. Rewriting that so that Sansa is basically snatched out of King's Landing unawares is a huge change to her escape. And it remains, to date, the most active role she's taken in the plot.

Well, the Purple Wedding seems to be in Episode 2, so there's not much time for secret meetings, escape plans etc. They should have set it up earlier. The fact that Sansa's part is less active is a result of the need to speed the whole Dontos affair up. I'm still surprised he's back after 2 seasons anyway.

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Best trailer yet. Amazing. Seems they're setting up the Starks for a comeback -

the fall and rise of the Starks, the rise and fall of the Lannisters

Love how the Boltons are getting nervous.

But please D&D, more direwolf action, no cutting Rickon, Osha and Shaggydog, and less HBO cliches of sexing up characters.

Sounds like a great episode, the next few weeks are going to be going so slow.

I was hoping the episode opened up from a Nymeria POV coming across Cat's body and the brotherhood turning up as Arya wakes up. I'm not sure how long they can actually leave it between her death and revival, how long was she dead for in the books before Beric gave her the kiss? I'm bracing myself for no Nymeria action at all :(

Agreed and this is my biggest fear, not only not seeing Nymeria again, but also

the Cat resurrection, and Jon and Arya's warging in particular, which D&D better not cut :angry2:

.

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I have mixed feelings on that. It shows the writers completely caving in to the misogynistic bile lobbed at those characters rather than committing to showing the complexities and defending the characters' mistakes (there being a considerable portion of the fandom that finds an eleven-year-old girl disobeying her father without any sense of what will result to be an unforgiveable crime, while an adult male can be forgiven for throwing a child out a window intending his death just because he's kewl and angsty), which is something they've done a number of times in the adaptation process. At the same time, since it's pretty clear that GRRM was completely taken aback by the level of vitriol it generated against Sansa, there may be something to be said for changing it.

I guess my answer would be that I wish we lived in a world where female characters were allowed the same latitude as male characters to make mistakes and grow by the audience, but it may just be practical for the writers to acknowledge that we don't live in that world (though at the same time I kind of wish they just stuck to their guns and presented the audience with that kind of story anyway -- the kneeling issue at the wedding, for instance, really irritates me because it plays like a concession to people who think Sansa was a big old meanie for not being more cooperative in her own slow-motion rape, and that sort of attitude has implications way beyond the characterization of a fictional character).

Thanks for your response, I appreciated your thoughts. I can see both sides of the argument. For many POV characters they have to make them look better objectively because we aren't in their heads to hear their personal justifications. On the other hand I feel like the characters should be shown warts and all. For characters like Tyrion, I understand making him less dark now so that his transformation is more drastic in later seasons. I agree that the Sansa hate among book readers is completely over the top, and I love Jamie but he gets a pass far too often. I've never really seen it as a gender thing, but I suppose that could have something to do with it. Some characters are just polarizing, like Stannis, it seems like people love him or hate him. At the end of the day, I think people tend to make excuses for the characters they love, while demonize characters they don't. While I think the Dontos storyline has been sloppy on the show, I think I'd rather see them include Sansa going to Cersei, but then TV viewers would have a similar reaction that many book readers did. I just think it's interesting that people are complaining about Sansa not being active enough in her escape plot, but I haven't really seen any complaints about the show cutting her active participation in the downfall of her family.

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I can't really fault you on your viewpoints, Le Cygne and Colonel Green: your criticisms are legitimate, I just don't find them to be a detriment to the show as a whole. Sansa's characterization has suffered in season 3, I won't deny that, but I think that her increasing naivety and her seemingly counterintuitive step back from her more mature and realistic S2 persona can be explained by the very real possibility she's presented with that she might soon be leaving the capitol. I preferred book Sansa, but at least the show's version makes sense. I think that there are so many biased fanboy interpretations of certain characters that any deviation to said characters which would otherwise be considered minor suddenly warrants expressions like "fuck this show" or "I hate D&D." And that pisses me off, I won't lie.


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Now this sounds good :

"Arya and the Hound are on the road. This is my favorite part of the episode, they are golden together. Arya wants her own horse. There's an encounter at an inn with someone Arya has run into before, and he still has something she wants back. This part of the episode got not one, but two spontaneous cheers from the audience. It's a brutal fight and Arya gets her Needle back... then returns the favor." - from the link on page 1

But after, he's apparently mildly annoyed she gets her own horse (not in the books). I am taking this as something for comic effect. Stranger would have been very happy.

Stranger and Drogon must be referred to as Stranger and Drogon.

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I just think it's interesting that people are complaining about Sansa not being active enough in her escape plot, but I haven't really seen any complaints about the show cutting her active participation in the downfall of her family.

If you look at some of the old review threads here or on EW.com, you'll find some people quite angry that that was cut because the show is hiding what an evil, irredeemable bitch Sansa is. ;)

I agree that fans of a character are often happy to see controversial parts get omitted (in Sansa's case, her participation has been endlessly argued-over in terms of how much she was responsible for her father's death, so I suspect a lot of book Sansa fans were just glad to get some ammunition against the people who argue that the whole thing was her fault). One is being pulled in two directions, since fans generally want other people to like their favourites, but also want their stories rendered faithfully.

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