Greens or Blacks, and who fought dirtier?

[The Wolves]

The ends justify the means

Do you really believe that cause I always hated this saying and do not agree with it.

I'm a Black supporter but I don't think the smallfolk should have suffered for that war at all or the towns and villages or children that died in that war.

[Julia Martell]

Blood and Cheese was definitely the dirtiest trick in the war as a whole, but the Greens whole strategy was a dirty trick. And they knew it.

But that does not excuse the murder of a child. Moral Event Horizon, thy name is Helaena's Choice.

[DaeronDrumm]

I really don't get it, why most of the people support blacks so fiercely and defend their decisions. OK Greens were worse overall I agree, but then, Blood and Cheese. Holly shit, wtf. Killing CHILDREN. Innocent little children. And why? Because his uncle killed some other children?

Because Prince Lucerys Velaryon had to be avenged, simple as that. He wasn't legitimately killed in battle, the Greens murdered him in cold blood when he was acting as an envoy... Even if Aemond the Psycho's treacherous kinslaying was on his own initiative and not ordered by the Greens as a faction, they condoned it after the fact.

If Aegon the Usurper and Helaena wanted to keep their own children breathing after that, all they had to do is hand Daemon and Rhaenyra Aemond's head on a silver platter. They did not. Their faction murdered Rhaenyra's child, Rhaenyra's faction murdered theirs. Gruesome as it is, it's completely justified. And I really love that they forced Helaena to pick which son would live and slew the other, that was sheer beauty and it completely destroyed an enemy dragon rider.

Daemon Targaryen was completely awesome.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Do you really believe that cause I always hated this saying and do not agree with it.

I'm a Black supporter but I don't think the smallfolk should have suffered for that war at all or the towns and villages or children that died in that war.

Yes I do believe in the ends justify the means.

If the over all outcome is to spare more innocent lives then yeah. There is one point that Tywin made, why is it more justified to kill tens of thousands on the field of battle than a dozen or so at dinner?

If the objective was to cripple the Greens in the same way that the blacks were crippled (the killing of an heir) age doesn't matter, Luke didn't want to fight he came under a peace banner and was an envoy. There are rules to war and killing a man under an envoy mission that has failed...Come on someone has to answer for it. As they couldn't get there hands on Aemond then take the next best thing Aegon's future his heir, just like Aemond took the princess's future.

If the choice is between killing one man in a dishonorable way vs. killing 10,000 in an honorable way the choice is easy, kill the one to save the many. One man's honor shouldn't come before the needs of the realm.

now granted killing Aegon's heir wasn't for the good of the realm, but like I said, my favorite saying of all time is "Fair exchange is no robbery" if Aegon wasn't prepared for the cost of war then he should have step aside and let his sister be queen

There are rules in war and the Greens broke the rules first, so it's not the blacks fault that they have to retaliate and make it known they are a force to be reckoned with.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yes I do believe in the ends justify the means.

If the over all outcome is to spare more innocent lives then yeah. There is one point that Tywin made, why is it more justified to kill tens of thousands on the field of battle than a dozen or so at dinner?

The problem with this analogy is that it was much more than a dozen or so slaughtered at dinner during The Red Wedding. An entire army was wiped out, with only a few high powered lords spared for ransom, so Tywin's comparison is completely moot.

[apovsic]

Because Prince Lucerys Velaryon had to be avenged, simple as that. He wasn't legitimately killed in battle, the Greens murdered him in cold blood when he was acting as an envoy... Even if Aemond the Psycho's treacherous kinslaying was on his own initiative and not ordered by the Greens as a faction, they condoned it after the fact.

Avanged by killing innocent children. Yeah way to go, that showed that they are way above Aemond the Psycho, because he ... um ... killed innocent children?? Way to go.

[apovsic]

And sure, it's better to kill some, not letting thousand to die. But in this case, it doesn't make sense.They didn't kill the leaders, they didn't even kill some behind the scene schemers, they kill innocent child, who had nothing to do with this. And bullshit about eye for an eye. If they really need to do it, kill Aemond, for crying out loud. He was responsible for that not the child.

I really don't get it how can someone defend this bloody action.

And please don't reply with :"Yeah, but Aemond was 10x time worse, blablabla ...". Offcourse he was a psycho and overall the bloodiest person in the war, however nobody is defending him (thank god).

[The Wolves]

The problem with this analogy is that it was much more than a dozen or so slaughtered at dinner during The Red Wedding. An entire army was wiped out, with only a few high powered lords spared for ransom, so Tywin's comparison is completely moot.

And Tywin didn't care about the thousands of innocents that would be spared with that slaughter it was to kill a dangerous foe and he would slaughter millions if it helped to keep his family that is less than 30 people on that ugly throne.

[the conquoring bastard25]

The problem with this analogy is that it was much more than a dozen or so slaughtered at dinner during The Red Wedding. An entire army was wiped out, with only a few high powered lords spared for ransom, so Tywin's comparison is completely moot.

I was only bring that quote up in comparison to my thoughts about Blood and Cheese. Personally the Red Wedding didn't affect me the way most are by those events. While it was horrible and the army nor any one that supported Robb shouldn't have died. A man is entitled to his vengeance, but... all of the rest don't deserve what befell them .Robb and Robb alone should have been made to answer for his crimes of being an oathbreaker.

With that being said, once again I was only thinking about what Tywin said when dealing with the Blood and cheese incident. Lastly please I don't want to talk about Robb and what he did or didn't deserve. That's your opinion and I have mine your not going to get me to change my mind.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I was only bring that quote up in comparison to my thoughts about Blood and Cheese. Personally the Red Wedding didn't affect me the way most are by those events. While it was horrible and the army nor any one that supported Robb shouldn't have died. A man is entitled to his vengeance, but... all of the rest don't deserve what befell them .Robb and Robb alone should have been made to answer for his crimes of being an oathbreaker.

With that being said, once again I was only thinking about what Tywin said when dealing with the Blood and cheese incident. Lastly please I don't want to talk about Robb and what he did or didn't deserve. That's your opinion and I have mine your not going to get me to change my mind.

Wow, that's alot of posting instructions you gave me, isn't it? How can you tell me what my opinion on Robb is.....when I didn't even mention him?

Now, granted.....the thought of a few at dinner vs thousands is an idea to discuss, I was just pointing out that Tywin was full of shit. Hope that wasn't contrary to the posting instructions you left me.

[DaeronDrumm]

Any harm that befell the Greens WAS for the good of the realm: Rhaenyra's victory would have established a precedent of Equal Primogeniture (aka Dornish Law), which would have dealt a severe blow to Westerosi patriarchy and sexism.

[Julia Martell]

Any harm that befell the Greens WAS for the good of the realm: Rhaenyra's victory would have established a precedent of Equal Primogeniture (aka Dornish Law), which would have dealt a severe blow to Westerosi patriarchy and sexism.

Gods Forbid!

No, I don't think Queen Alicent was as high minded as that. She just wanted to hold on to power. If you really want to be generous you can say she wanted to keep her children safe.

[DaeronDrumm]

Gods Forbid!

No, I don't think Queen Alicent was as high minded as that. She just wanted to hold on to power. If you really want to be generous you can say she wanted to keep her children safe.

You're kinda preaching to the choir here. :cool4:

I'm fanatically anti-Green. Rhaenyra was eldest and had been named heir, and her accession might well have established Dornish Law throughout Westeros. Anyone standing against her was taking a regressive stance, was on the wrong side of history and had to be crushed without mercy, simple as that. Unfortunately GRRM being GRRM Rhaenyra had to die in the War so that when the Blacks finally won it was her son who succeeded, making sure the War was fought for naught... But still the point stands.

Any dead Green was objectively a good thing for the realm. Shame they didn't all die before Rhaenyra did.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to give instructions. it's that mostly when people talk bad about the golden boy Robb Stark, people get attacked. I was saying that just to keep it on topic. I wasn't trying to offend you or anyone

your right I don't know how you feel about Robb I was just trying to stay on topic.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to give instructions. it's that mostly when people talk bad about the golden boy Robb Stark, people get attacked. I was saying that just to keep it on topic. I wasn't trying to offend you or anyone

your right I don't know how you feel about Robb I was just trying to stay on topic.

No problem, I could be a bit touchy with a migraine, LOL

I never understood why Tywin made that comment. In general, it's a number equation, but not one that really related to the situtation. Tywin was someone who didn't think much about those not of the noble class, but still, in that situation it was also the army he needed to dispose of, not just Robb.

I think, while it was horrifying (especially the way it was done), the Blood and Cheese incident at least really was....a one on one reaction, a son for a son. It is very interesting that even the hirelings themselves kept it to just the one killing. Some upthread have mentioned that killing all the family would have put Aemond in line for the throne. I'm just surprised that even with that consideration more didn't go wrong with that plot.

[DaeronDrumm]

Aemond as Green pretender would have arguably been good for the Black cause: It's not like Vhagar wasn't fighting for the Greens to begin with.

Who would have wanted Mad Aemond for their King? Faced with Aemond's cruelty and craziness, how many lords might have been tempted to bend to Rhaenyra and Daemon to get the whole mess over with?

The only Green Targ whose death would have been bad for the Blacks when Blood and Cheese did their thing was Helaena, as her death would have left Prince Aegon the Usurper in a position to bring another House into the Green fold through marriage.

[the conquoring bastard25]

No problem, I could be a bit touchy with a migraine, LOL

I never understood why Tywin made that comment. In general, it's a number equation, but not one that really related to the situtation. Tywin was someone who didn't think much about those not of the noble class, but still, in that situation it was also the army he needed to dispose of, not just Robb.

I think, while it was horrifying (especially the way it was done), the Blood and Cheese incident at least really was....a one on one reaction, a son for a son. It is very interesting that even the hirelings themselves kept it to just the one killing. Some upthread have mentioned that killing all the family would have put Aemond in line for the throne. I'm just surprised that even with that consideration more didn't go wrong with that plot.

As I myself am migraine suffer I understand. I can be a total bitch. With that being said I'm glad you accept my apology.

I think Tywin was making the comment to justify his action in his son's eyes. He must know that Tyrion thinks he's a monster just as much as Twyin thinks that Tyrion is a monster.

Another thing that I noticed and this is off topic but still on. The red Viper said that he wanted the head of the man who made the order, the man that cared out the order.... Yet if the red Viper was in on killing Joff and i'm inclined to believe he was, it's the same situation. An heir for an heir. Tywin killed Elia's heir so he killed Cersi's heir. I wonder if GRRM was trying to draw those parallel or if that's just my imagination.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

That "son" was 6yrs old and did no harm against the Blacks it was not fair at all

And the other didn't hurt anybody either.

If anything, that event was rather tame, they could have killed all 3 kids and the mother, but only went for the 1 son.

[DaeronDrumm]

And the other didn't hurt anybody either.

If anything, that event was rather tame, they could have killed all 3 kids and the mother, but only went for the 1 son.

They probably should have killed them all, in order to thoroughly break Alicent (losing her daughter and her grandsons in one fell swoop while she thought them safe), hurt Aegon the Usurper and taunt Aemond into doing something more reckless than usual where he could have been ganged up on and killed. But Helaena's Choice made for a much better story. :cool4:

(Gotta love the cruelty of having her choose which son will live and killing the other so that her surviving son would always know she meant for him to die)

[Jojosh]

In the end neither side cared about the people and kinda turned me off targ rulers for the most part. Maybe the blacks seemed like the good guys or wronged party at first but after awhile rhaenyra lost it and then the whole conflict became a petty spite contest.